Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[marks]

In every incident of a resurrection throughout the Bible it pertains to
somebody's physical body. It's very difficult for me to even so much as even consider that Jesus' experience would be any different.

Exactly! Someone's spirit returning in a disembodied state would not be a resurrection.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Which God do you say he worshipped Ron? I say he worshipped the God Jesus worshipped obviously, you do believe he was one of Christ's disciples correct?

Yes He did and He also worshipped Jesus! We are called to worship Father and Son.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree with you example, and fully understand it, a fitting illustration Ron, and very true God did send His son, not Himself, He sent Yeshua, not Yahweh, Jehovah sent, He did not come, Yeshua never is referred to as Yahweh ever.

Already showed you from Is. 44:6 In Isaiah Jesus is called Yahweh of Hosts.

 

[marks]

It was understood by all this was a physical resurrection. Even the bible says Jesus would not see corruption but be raised.! The watchtower has to create a story of "God destroying the body of Jesus and that Jesus manufactured bodies as needed to prove He was risen from the dead." That is not found in the bible.

I had no idea!! What a mockery of the truth!

"Come, see where he lay . . . His is not here, He is risen, just like He said!"

I'm glad for this thread. I've learned new things, and I've been reminded of things I've known but have forgotten. I'm astounded at the degree of mental gymnastics one must do to hold JW beliefs.

Like this above.

Much love!

 

[tigger 2]

no it is not! other is its own word "allos" and would appear and not implied.

"Other"

The Bible writers very often excluded the subject (and others with him) when using the term “all” (and “every”). This is a common usage even today. For example, the police lieutenant making an arrest of a criminal group might tell his men: “Arrest Everyone in this room!” Obviously the lieutenant does not include himself (nor his men who are with him) even though he says “everyone”! Or “the criminal tied up everyone in the room before stealing the gems.”

In the respected A Greek Grammar of the New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature (Blass, Debrunner, and Funk we find: #306 - "allos ['other' in NT Greek] is sometimes omitted where we would add 'other'" And #480 - "(1) The omission of the notion 'other, whatever' ... is specifically Greek" - University of Chicago Press, 1961.

And we find NEB; REB; NJB; NAB (‘91); GNB; and LB (for example) have honestly added “other” at Ezek. 31:5 to show that a certain tree towered above “all other trees” whereas KJV, NASB, RSV (for example) have it towering “above all trees.” Since it does not tower above itself, the Bible writer obviously excluded it from the phrase “all trees” (even though it is also a tree itself and a part of “all trees”).

In Matthew 10:22, Jesus tells his followers: “and you will be hated by all [pantos] because of my name.” - NRSV. Certainly, Jesus didn’t mean that his true followers would be hated by Jesus himself or God. And most certainly he didn’t mean they would be hated by themselves! (Remember, the subject is often understood to be excluded from the “all” statements.)

The Moffatt translation, An American Translation, The Common Bible, The Amplified Bible, and translations by C. B. Williams, and Beck all add “other” after “all” at 1 Cor. 15:24 (e.g. “when he will put an end to all other government, authority, and power” - C. B. Williams, The New Testament in the Language of the People, Moody Press, 1963). Although the NWT does not happen to add “other” at that scripture, its translators (as well as every other Jehovah’s Witness on earth) would whole-heartedly agree that those who have added “other” there have done so properly and that the original Bible writer so intended the meaning! And conversely, at Jn 2:10 the NWT has added “other,” and, although most [other] translations do not add it, I’m sure most people would agree that, whether actually written in the scripture or not, context demands such an understanding: “Every other man puts out the fine wine first...”

Again, at 1 Cor. 6:18 the respected trinitarian Bibles NIV, NASB, NEB, REB, AT, GNB, TEV, JB, NJB (among others) have added “other” to the text. And the NWT agrees whole-heartedly! And at Matt. 6:33 JB, AT, GNB, TEV, and Beck (Lutheran scholar) have added “other” (NEB has added “the rest”), and, again, the NWT agrees.

Or how about Luke 13:2 where many trinitarian translations add ‘other’:

“all the other Galileans” - NIV, Luke 13:2
“all other Galileans” – NASB
“all other Galileans” – NAB (’91)
“all other Galileans” - NRSV
“all other Galileans” - NKJV
“all the other Galileans” – RSV
“anyone else in Galilee” – NEB and REB
“than any other Galileans” - JB
“than all other Galileans” - NJB
“any other Galileans” - AT
"everyone else in Galilee" - CEV.
"all other Galileans" - TEV.
"all other Galilaeans" - BBE
"other people from Galilee" - GodsWord
"all the other Galileans" - ISV NT
“the rest of the Galileans” - Moffatt

When Gen. 3:20 tells us that Eve “was the mother of all living,” does that really make her the mother of Adam? of all animals? of all plants? of angels? of God? So, although the literal Hebrew says “all,” we know from the teachings of the rest of the Bible that this is a severely qualified “all,” and it would be perfectly honest to add some qualifying word or phrase (“all other humans” - after all, she, although the subject, wasn’t her own mother, or Adam’s).

Notice also God’s words to Noah at Gen. 6:17, “I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens” - NIV. Since the rest of the Bible shows that Noah did not die in that flood, this scripture could honestly be rendered “to destroy all [other] life.” Noah knew God was using a qualified “all” and did not apply to himself and so should we!

When the angel of Jehovah told his mother about Ishmael that “His hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand will be against him,” She did not think by this that Ishmael’s own hand would be against himself. As usual the “every” or “all” excepted the one who was the subject.

There are many more examples. As noted in a previous post, “With a little effort you can find many more similar examples.” Apparently, RN is unwilling or unable to use a “little effort” to back up his inaccurate statements.

 

[marks]

Never forget Ron, Paul was one of Jehovah's witnesses sir.

You cannot claim historical figures for your own religion which did not exist at that time.

Philippians 2:6-11 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It was Paul that penned these words, do you suppose that he himself didn't believe this is truth? No, you cannot appropriate some historical figure to paint in your colors.

Much love!

 

[tigger 2]

You cannot claim historical figures for your own religion which did not exist at that time.

Philippians 2:6-11 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It was Paul that penned these words, do you suppose that he himself didn't believe this is truth? No, you cannot appropriate some historical figure to paint in your colors.

Much love!

...................................
As I'm sure you have been shown many times, the above trinitarian translation of Phil. 2:6 is a mistranslation.

Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Other"

The Bible writers very often excluded the subject (and others with him) when using the term “all” (and “every”). This is a common usage even today. For example, the police lieutenant making an arrest of a criminal group might tell his men: “Arrest Everyone in this room!” Obviously the lieutenant does not include himself (nor his men who are with him) even though he says “everyone”! Or “the criminal tied up everyone in the room before stealing the gems.”

In the respected A Greek Grammar of the New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature (Blass, Debrunner, and Funk we find: #306 - "allos ['other' in NT Greek] is sometimes omitted where we would add 'other'" And #480 - "(1) The omission of the notion 'other, whatever' ... is specifically Greek" - University of Chicago Press, 1961.

And we find NEB; REB; NJB; NAB (‘91); GNB; and LB (for example) have honestly added “other” at Ezek. 31:5 to show that a certain tree towered above “all other trees” whereas KJV, NASB, RSV (for example) have it towering “above all trees.” Since it does not tower above itself, the Bible writer obviously excluded it from the phrase “all trees” (even though it is also a tree itself and a part of “all trees”).

In Matthew 10:22, Jesus tells his followers: “and you will be hated by all [pantos] because of my name.” - NRSV. Certainly, Jesus didn’t mean that his true followers would be hated by Jesus himself or God. And most certainly he didn’t mean they would be hated by themselves! (Remember, the subject is often understood to be excluded from the “all” statements.)

The Moffatt translation, An American Translation, The Common Bible, The Amplified Bible, and translations by C. B. Williams, and Beck all add “other” after “all” at 1 Cor. 15:24 (e.g. “when he will put an end to all other government, authority, and power” - C. B. Williams, The New Testament in the Language of the People, Moody Press, 1963). Although the NWT does not happen to add “other” at that scripture, its translators (as well as every other Jehovah’s Witness on earth) would whole-heartedly agree that those who have added “other” there have done so properly and that the original Bible writer so intended the meaning! And conversely, at Jn 2:10 the NWT has added “other,” and, although most [other] translations do not add it, I’m sure most people would agree that, whether actually written in the scripture or not, context demands such an understanding: “Every other man puts out the fine wine first...”

Again, at 1 Cor. 6:18 the respected trinitarian Bibles NIV, NASB, NEB, REB, AT, GNB, TEV, JB, NJB (among others) have added “other” to the text. And the NWT agrees whole-heartedly! And at Matt. 6:33 JB, AT, GNB, TEV, and Beck (Lutheran scholar) have added “other” (NEB has added “the rest”), and, again, the NWT agrees.

Or how about Luke 13:2 where many trinitarian translations add ‘other’:

“all the other Galileans” - NIV, Luke 13:2
“all other Galileans” – NASB
“all other Galileans” – NAB (’91)
“all other Galileans” - NRSV
“all other Galileans” - NKJV
“all the other Galileans” – RSV
“anyone else in Galilee” – NEB and REB
“than any other Galileans” - JB
“than all other Galileans” - NJB
“any other Galileans” - AT
"everyone else in Galilee" - CEV.
"all other Galileans" - TEV.
"all other Galilaeans" - BBE
"other people from Galilee" - GodsWord
"all the other Galileans" - ISV NT
“the rest of the Galileans” - Moffatt

When Gen. 3:20 tells us that Eve “was the mother of all living,” does that really make her the mother of Adam? of all animals? of all plants? of angels? of God? So, although the literal Hebrew says “all,” we know from the teachings of the rest of the Bible that this is a severely qualified “all,” and it would be perfectly honest to add some qualifying word or phrase (“all other humans” - after all, she, although the subject, wasn’t her own mother, or Adam’s).

Notice also God’s words to Noah at Gen. 6:17, “I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens” - NIV. Since the rest of the Bible shows that Noah did not die in that flood, this scripture could honestly be rendered “to destroy all [other] life.” Noah knew God was using a qualified “all” and did not apply to himself and so should we!

When the angel of Jehovah told his mother about Ishmael that “His hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand will be against him,” She did not think by this that Ishmael’s own hand would be against himself. As usual the “every” or “all” excepted the one who was the subject.

There are many more examples. As noted in a previous post, “With a little effort you can find many more similar examples.” Apparently, RN is unwilling or unable to use a “little effort” to back up his inaccurate statements.

YO use all this verbage to argue English construct and make up some cock-a-mamey satory about the writers understanding that other was implied.

Then Jesus was referring to every other Gallileans- with no exceptions! So this is a support for Jesus name being even above YaHWEH'S!

a=Also you love to use dynamic translations which are a mix of paraphrase and translation. Other is not assumed i the Greek. It is perfectly okay to add (ex. in this passage ) "the other" to let people know it means all Galileans- the ones who died and the rest of all Galileans.

The same would be true for Philippians when it says

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

It means exactly what is written- all names or every name!

God would have known if this was going to be a point of confusion, He is ot the author of confusion! So He would have inspired Paul to write it in a way that would mean every name except the name of Jehovah! He doesn't need a man made organization to edit His word for HIm!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

...................................
As I'm sure you have been shown many times, the above trinitarian translation of Phil. 2:6 is a mistranslation.

Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6

Well teh Watchtower mistranslation is an abomination against language, grammar and Greek!

That has been shown true by even atheist Greek Scholares. They know it shows that Jesus claimed He was equal to God by this verse- they just don't believe it! They are honest scholares is lost! the Watchtower anonymous mistranslators have done the indoctrinated witnesses a grave disservice with this.

 

[Dropship]

1- Christianity over-wrote, squashed, trashed and stamped out paganism....:)
2-a man hanging from a cross would die quickly of suffocation if he couldn't push up with his legs to take the weight off his breathing muscles, that's why the gospels refer to the breaking of legs to hasten death, because they couldn't push up with broken legs.

1-Who told you that? It sure doesn't agree with Paul's statement at 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. He says to touch nothing "unclean"...if you think that whitewashing pagan religious concepts is clean from God's standpoint....well, all the best with that.
2- A stake..this configuration would have had exactly the same outcome for the victim. Breaking the legs would prevent them from expanding their lungs by pushing up with their feet. Suffocation would soon follow. The fact that Jesus did not get his legs broken fulfilled prophesy. (Compare Psalm 34:20 with John 19:26)

1- Satan is a clever fellow, he's stopped JW's celebrating Jesus's birth and resurrection..:)
2- People can hang with their arms vertical above them and still be able to breathe okay, just nip down the gym and try it yourself..:)
But with arms outstrethced on a cross the victim is in serious trouble if he couldn't push up with broken legs-
WIKI- "with arms outstretched the typical cause of death was asphyxiation..the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs."
Yes Jesus never had his legs broke but was killed by a spear thrust.

Satan's been up to his little tricks with the JW's again, he hates the sight of the cross so much that he's made them think Jesus was crucified on a stake.
In fact the stake was simply the vertical pole onto which the crossbeam was lashed-
WIKI- "Often, the vertical upright stake (Greek "stauros") of the cross would be left permanently in place at a recognised execution site (eg Calvary) and criminals were made to carry the crossbeam there, where it was lashed to the stake to form a cross"
The gospels and New Testament regularly use the word "cross", so if Jesus was crucified on a stake, people would have said "He was crucified on a stake, we all saw it", but nobody ever said that..:)

 

[marks]

...................................
As I'm sure you have been shown many times, the above trinitarian translation of Phil. 2:6 is a mistranslation.

Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6

I'm pretty aware of the discussion around that, but that's not what I'm referring to in this passage. Paul wrote that everyone would swear that Jesus Christ is LORD. What do you suppose Paul had in mind in writing that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

...................................
As I'm sure you have been shown many times, the above trinitarian translation of Phil. 2:6 is a mistranslation.

Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6

Something else to think about . . .

Philippians 2:6-11 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What was Jesus form before taking the form of a servant? Lord?
What was Jesus before He humbled Himself? Glorious?
What was Jesus before He became obedient? Sovereign?

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord

Isaiah 45:21-24 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

What was he thinking?

Much love!

 

[Dropship]

..you will not see religious symbols among us...

Well what's this cross at top left doing on a 1912 JW publication?..;)




PS- Symbols were good enough for early Christians..;)
"The Christian fish symbol was used as a marking on tombs and other secret meeting places by the early Christians"
The Christian Fish - The Story Behind This Christian Symbol

 

[Keiw]

Scripture does not say what you claim it does. Read the context and another translation.

For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
1 Peter 3:18​

The verse is saying that he was brought to life by the will and Spirit of God. The verse is NOT saying that the man became a ghost, living as a Spirit.

Mortal flesh cannot appear behind a locked door, Jesus did, he was raised as a spirit. They didnt recognize him on the first day he was raised, So obviously he was not in his original body. He did show Thomas his original body. Your translation is erred at Peter.

 

[Keiw]

.
Continued From No.689


There's something you will have to deal with sooner or later, so now is as
good a time as any.

I assume you are not one of those anointed folks. Well; if that's your current
spiritual condition, then according to 1John 2:26-27 the odds of your
avoiding seduction by the dark side of this world are very strong against
your coming out ahead of the game.

• 1Cor 11:14-15 . .Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of
light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming
themselves into ministers of righteousness.
_

I know that scripture well. I have studied religions and carefully studied what Jesus teaches--The teachings of Jesus and the facts of true God worship history back my teachers 100% with 0 doubt.

 

[Keiw]

Well what's this cross at top left doing on a 1912 JW publication?..;)

View attachment 26447


PS- Symbols were good enough for early Christians..;)
"The Christian fish symbol was used as a marking on tombs and other secret meeting places by the early Christians"
The Christian Fish - The Story Behind This Christian Symbol

They only had error filled trinity translations to use back then. Its not so easy to undo 1750 years of false teachings overnight. There was no internet, it took a lot of men studying many forms, books, history, that were available.

 

[Keiw]

YOu do not even know the Word of God!

Jesus died and physically rose to pay for all mankinds sin. But if you bothered to read teh rest of the call- One has to accept His death and physical resurrection in order to have that payment applied to their account!

And we physically dioe- because We are born with a sin nature and so inherit death from Adam!

Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out--written by Luke, inspired by Gods word through holy spirit--its 100% fact. There is a whole bible it makes up 1 single truth, all must be applied.

 

[Wrangler]

They didnt recognize him on the first day he was raised, So obviously he was not in his original body.

That is not obvious at all. If what you are saying is true, where was the body from the tomb?

 

[tigger 2]

YO use all this verbage to argue English construct and make up some cock-a-mamey satory about the writers understanding that other was implied.

Then Jesus was referring to every other Gallileans- with no exceptions! So this is a support for Jesus name being even above YaHWEH'S!

a=Also you love to use dynamic translations which are a mix of paraphrase and translation. Other is not assumed i the Greek.

...........................................
Since you seem to have difficulty reading English, I will point out that "all this verbage" is mostly trinitarian "verbage." And as for the accuracy of the trinitarian Bible translations I have supplied, try to explain which of the following are "dynamic translations" and which are not:

“all the other Galileans” - NIV, Luke 13:2
“all other Galileans” – NASB
“all other Galileans” – NAB (’91)
“all other Galileans” - NRSV
“all other Galileans” - NKJV
“all the other Galileans” – RSV
“anyone else in Galilee” – NEB and REB
“than any other Galileans” - JB
“than all other Galileans” - NJB
“any other Galileans” - AT
"everyone else in Galilee" - CEV.
"all other Galileans" - TEV.
"all other Galilaeans" - BBE
"other people from Galilee" - GodsWord
"all the other Galileans" - ISV NT
“the rest of the Galileans” - Moffatt

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.735

We are called to worship Father and Son.

Well; I'm not quite sure how the Watchtower Society defines worship; but
the passage below certainly seems to suggest that Jesus requires an
unusually high degree of courtesy.

• Philip 2:9-10 . . God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him
the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus
every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those
under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus
Christ is Lord; to the glory of God the Father.

Were it not for the little Greek article modifying "name" we'd be safe to
assume that Jesus' human name is in view. But the passage is talking about
"the" name that is above every other name. Well; that passage is telling me
God's son is not only to be respected above all other sentient beings, but
that God's son has also been given the right to use Jehovah as his personal
identity, plus: failure to honor Jesus identity as Jehovah shows unthinkable
disrespect for the dignity of God's name.

Jesus' situation isn't unprecedented. For example:

• Ex 23:20-21 . . Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on
the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch
yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously
against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because My name is
within him.

The angel's voice was the voice of God.

• Ex 23:22 . . However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I
shall speak; then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass
those who harass you.

You know, if more folks really knew just how powerful Jesus really is, I think
many would likely panic; and some day many will.

• Rev 6:15-17 . . And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and
the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave
and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of
the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock
masses: Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the
throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great days of their
wrath has come, and who is able to stand?
_