APOSTASIA in the LXX

[marks]

No, this is not about "physical departure" at all.

Personally I think you are wrong, and this IS departure like we know it, for the reasons already given.

Much love!

And yes . . . be wise about this. Long and convoluted arguments to overturn a simple passage (departure without modifying context is departure) often derive from error. So much of the rapture debate is based on assumptions (I know, I've been doing this for decades).

So yes, I encourage you, be wise, in much love!

What you call "the recent outbreak of everyone ridiculing Christianity," is not part of this apostasy (a separate issue),

Perhaps you've confused me with someone else, I don't recall saying this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Apostasia as a sign - If this is referring to Spiritual rebellion, how would you know which rebellion is "the one"?

?????

 

[marks]

...but if you think any of this will change anyone's mind, it won't. Their problem is not the Greek word [apostasia], but the doctrine of rapture before the end of the world. Its doctrine, and receiving it, not Greek.

Personally I think the issues is in two places, one being married to a contrary doctrine, and the other being a lack of understanding of Koine Greek. Maybe a third issue, a lack of practice in critical reasoning.

I've yet to see someone opposed to pre-trib rapture timing actually demonstrate to me a reasonable knowledge of the foundation of the view, much less an actually complete knowledge of their own view. Very few anyway!

I mean seriously! I'v studied each of the major views in depth. Isn't that what people do? Personally I think I can debate in support of the other views better than those I debate with! Very rare is it that I find someone who can even accurately and fairly articulate the other views.

Most those on this forum can't even make a beginning of doing that, all they can seem to do is overflow with contempt and spite, and maybe that's why.

At the end of the day, I find - I can't recall an exception to this - disagreements come down to some particular passage of Scripture, of which I will say, It means what it says, and someone else will say, It means something else.

That's where dispensations come it, when we say, It means what it says. Pre-trib rapture, because it means what it says.

So I'm just going to keep saying, it means what it says.

Much love!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Personally I think you are wrong,

Very unlikely!

and this IS departure like we know it, for the reasons already given.

Yeah, it is called the deception of the PreTribulation Rapture. Thanks to Thomas Ice for bringing up false interpretation on Apostasia.

​

Much love!

Much wisdom which you lack the wisdom of Christ and the ability to discern what the Word of God actually talks about.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Apostasia as a sign - If this is referring to Spiritual rebellion, how would you know which rebellion is "the one"?

?????

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

When men remove God's Holy word from the Holy Temple (Church), and make their own words the ultimate authority of the Church. That is the apostasia! The falling away [apostasia] is there, and the sinful man (man of sin) rules in God's house as if he is God. At such time when we see this in our Church, the man of God must depart out.

That word translated "falling away" is [apostasia], meaning a forsaking or defection from truth. I do believe we are in that period of apostasy right now where man thinks he can rule in the church as if he were God. This is what the rise of false prophets and christs are about! This unfaithful church is where God sends strong delusion as its judgment for unfaithfulness or falling away from Him. I think that we can Biblically define "Delusion," [plane], as psychosis, the mind where subterfuge and fraudulent ideas seem plausible, rational, and justified. It is the antithesis of having a sound or sober mind, meaning spiritual sobriety in restraint from unsound doctrines and irrational invalidated beliefs.

1st Corinthians 2:16

• "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Indeed who has known the mind of the Lord that they may instruct him, and yet through His Spirit we have the mind of Christ that he may instruct us. The sound spiritual mind as opposed to the madness of the unsound mind of those without His presence. This is what much wisdom I was talking about which you sorely lack on this subject.

Much wisdom!

 

[TribulationSigns]

That's where dispensations come it, when we say, It means what it says. Pre-trib rapture, because it means what it says.

So I'm just going to keep saying, it means what it says.

Sounds more like you have already been deceived by this doctrine despite my wisdom in Christ. The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that!

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Much wisdom!

 

[marks]

Sounds more like you have already been deceived by this doctrine despite my wisdom in Christ.

Many things seem to some like what they are not, no accounting for that!

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Personally I think the issues is in two places, one being married to a contrary doctrine, and the other being a lack of understanding of Koine Greek. Maybe a third issue, a lack of practice in critical reasoning.

A doctrine which has been held in unanimity by the entire historic true Christian Church for 1700 years is not a contrary doctrine.

A doctrine which has been, and is, held in unanimity by every English Bible translator in existence is not a contrary doctrine.

A modernist dogma which has appeared suddenly and spontaneously less than 200 years ago from an unknown and unrecognized speculator is the epitome of a contrary doctrine.

I'll take my stand with the former.

Every time.

 

[marks]

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

When men remove God's Holy word from the Holy Temple (Church), and make their own words the ultimate authority of the Church. That is the apostasia! The falling away [apostasia] is there, and the sinful man (man of sin) rules in God's house as if he is God. At such time when we see this in our Church, the man of God must depart out.

That word translated "falling away" is [apostasia], meaning a forsaking or defection from truth. I do believe we are in that period of apostasy right now where man thinks he can rule in the church as if he were God. This is what the rise of false prophets and christs are about! This unfaithful church is where God sends strong delusion as its judgment for unfaithfulness or falling away from Him. I think that we can Biblically define "Delusion," [plane], as psychosis, the mind where subterfuge and fraudulent ideas seem plausible, rational, and justified. It is the antithesis of having a sound or sober mind, meaning spiritual sobriety in restraint from unsound doctrines and irrational invalidated beliefs.

1st Corinthians 2:16

• "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Indeed who has known the mind of the Lord that they may instruct him, and yet through His Spirit we have the mind of Christ that he may instruct us. The sound spiritual mind as opposed to the madness of the unsound mind of those without His presence. This is what much wisdom I was talking about which you sorely lack on this subject.

Much wisdom!

So, my question, how would you know, or how do you know this is "the" apostasia? Considering there has been apostasy from the beginning.

I"m not seeing an answer to that particular question. Your belief that we are in that time now doesn't really constitute proof to me.

And of course now you've become derisive, so I think we've reached the end of the substantive arguments. What is the wisdom in that??

Much love!

 

[marks]

Very unlikely!


Yeah, it is called the deception of the PreTribulation Rapture. Thanks to Thomas Ice for bringing up false interpretation on Apostasia.

​

Much wisdom which you lack the wisdom of Christ and the ability to discern what the Word of God actually talks about.

OK, thanks for confirming, we're done, you've only got personal derision left. Boring, and meaningless to the discussion.

Much love!

 

[TribulationSigns]

So, my question, how would you know, or how do you know this is "the" apostasia?
Your belief that we are in that time now doesn't really constitute proof to me.

Sounds like you are in denial! :-)

"Denial is the most predictable of all human response!" - WiseManSay

That there is denial of the church's current state is not unexpected or novel, but if we are honest with ourselves (by the Spirit of Christ) I'm sure we can all tell that there is the ever growing departure from the truth in the congregations. Indeed it's no secret to God's elect that it is in absolute dismal shape these days. Between the deniers, the talking heads, the men-pleasers, the rationalizers, the pleasure seekers and the self-serving, there is hardly room for faith based Bible believers who hate sin anymore. The man of righteousness is disdained there, while the man of sin exalted.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Every false prophets and christs are "THE" sinful man in God's house is being revealed, illustrating that Satan is at work mightily in the church. And when man makes himself his own God, by replacing God's rules and laws with his own rules and laws, that Satan is revealed is inevitable. In the vain imaginations of his heart, he has exalted himself far above the creator illustrating that he has no fear of God (Psalms 36:1). And this falling away or apostasy so permeates the churches today that it's difficult to even know where the world ends and the church begins. As the church goes, so the world goes, because the Church (true Church) is indeed the very reason this world still exists. i.e., when the disobedience of man is come to the full and God is finished building His church, He's finished with man. Then comes the consummation and the end of this world.

Eccleseastes 12:13

• "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

It's all about the glory of God in establishing His church from among the world.

Much wisdom!

 

[marks]

Sounds like you are in denial! :-)

OK, thanks for confirming, we're done, you've only got personal derision left. Boring, and meaningless to the discussion.

Much love!

Much love!

 

[TribulationSigns]

OK, thanks for confirming, we're done, you've only got personal derision left. Boring, and meaningless to the discussion.

Much love!

Much wisdom!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apostasia as a sign - If this is referring to Spiritual rebellion, how would you know which rebellion is "the one"?

?????

Strange question. Why do you think it would have to be just one case of apostasy when we're talking in terms of mass apostasy from the faith? If you have spiritual discernment, you can see when things are getting worse morally and see when more people than usual are falling away from the faith. I think we're living in that time now based on what I'm seeing in recent years.

And, let's not forget that Paul said the apostasia had to occur before the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him and he certainly wasn't saying that the rapture had to occur before the rapture. You have decided somehow that "that day" in 2 Thess 2:3 is talking about some other day than the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him, but the context of 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly shows otherwise.

 

[ewq1938]

APOSTASIA and its cognates appear over 220 times in the LXX.

How many times does the word apostasia appear in it? "cognates" are not the same word nor meaning plus the word's definition changed over time. In Greek, from the time of the NT, it can only mean a falling away from the/a faith which is how it was used the two times it appears in the entire bible. The LXX is a translation not a source of the word's NT meaning.

 

[KUWN]

How many times does the word apostasia appear in it? "cognates" are not the same word nor meaning plus the word's definition changed over time. In Greek, from the time of the NT, it can only mean a falling away from the/a faith which is how it was used the two times it appears in the entire bible. The LXX is a translation not a source of the word's NT meaning.

The word APOSTASIA requires modifiers for it to mean falling away from the faith. Like Acts 21.21 where Luke adds "from Moses" to APOSTASIA. I don't think the word APOSTASIA is ever found without modifiers, except for 2 Thes 2.3. The usage of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes is most unique.
The LXX is one of the best sources for APOSTASIA's meanings since Paul used the LXX extensively. As a general rule, OT quotes are taken from the LXX by the NT writers. (I might have to check that but that is the impression I get)

 

[covenantee]

The word APOSTASIA requires modifiers for it to mean falling away from the faith.

You may "require modifiers".

But not one English Bible translator, past or present, has ever "required modifiers".

I'm confident that their Greek competence exceeds yours.

 

[ewq1938]

The word APOSTASIA requires modifiers for it to mean falling away from the faith.

No. It means to fall away, from faith in a religion or faith in Moses. That's what the word means.

Like Acts 21.21 where Luke adds "from Moses" to APOSTASIA. I don't think the word APOSTASIA is ever found without modifiers, except for 2 Thes 2.3. The usage of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes is most unique.

It's not unique and is only one of the two instances the term is used in the bible.

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[KUWN]

It's not unique and is only one of the two instances the term is used in the bible.

All I ask to refute my position is for you to show me ONE example (not including our passage 2 Thes 2.3) where APOSTASIA is used without modifiers. Just one.
You forgot to give the full definitions when you gave (partial) definitions of APOSTASIA. It also means Departure. Go back to the Lexica and cut and paste the whole definition.
APOSTASIA does mostly mean religious departure, but only if it has modifiers, like Acts 21.21, its only other use in the NT.

 

[marks]

Strange question.

No, it's a perfectly valid question. If "The Spiritual Rebellion" is a sign, then how do you know when it's "The Spiritual Rebellion"?

When I give you directions to the Original Pancake House, and I say, It's right past the giant Ficus, there is in fact a giant Ficus by which you can know where to turn. It's there, you can see it, point to it, "there it is" you can say, "That's the one!"

So . . . How do you know?

Much love!