Apokatastasis in the early church

[Ronald David Bruno]

You mean the original autograph. (manuscript) Too bad we don't have one.

Which is why we have an All Mighty God whom we trust will preserve His Word.

I see that you have many doubts about the reliability of scripture. There are many books on the subject.
Josh McDowell just updated his "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" book.
Probably "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?" by F.F. Bruce is the most scholarly defense given. Anything by William Albright ( who was to archeology what Einstein was to science) is good.

 

[St. SteVen]

I use Biblegateway.com and can pull up 60 versions and examine each scripture.

Which one of the 60 versions is the inerrant "Word of God"?
Did "an All Mighty God... preserve His Word"?

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[St. SteVen]

I see that you have many doubts about the reliability of scripture. There are many books on the subject.
Josh McDowell just updated his "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" book.
Probably "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?" by F.F. Bruce is the most scholarly defense given. Anything by William Albright ( who was to archeology what Einstein was to science) is good.

Thanks, but those sort of books are very biased.

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[Wick Stick]

What is your view based on - was the question.

1) It's only Protestants whose cornerstone is the Bible, and that has only been the case since the Reformation.

2) Catholics and Orthodox have the Church as their foundation, and the Bible's credibility is inherited from the Church.

3) For Messianic Jews, tradition is the base, and the Bible is credible because it is part of tradition.

4) Christian Deists base themselves on their belief in God, and are more-or-less credulous of Bible because it is the revelation of that God that is most available or most plausible.

5) And then there are rogue Christians who base themselves on a relationship and personal communication with God. For them, the Bible is a tool to double-check their revelations against.

Oh, I'm a mess.

I grew up in a charismatic church that was mostly #5, but went to a reformed school that was strongly #1, and then minored in Political Philosophy and read a lot of stuff by guys who were #4. So some combination of those.

I'm not big on tradition, and I'm not invested the authority of any particular church.

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps not. But we have enough copies that a faithful replica can be assembled.

Is that what passes for the inerrant 'Word of God" now? A "faithful replica"? - LOL

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[Wick Stick]

I agree.
But how much of the Bible are written words quoted from God?

Not a lot.

I would like to extend the criteria to include all the books of prophecy. What do you think?

 

[Wick Stick]

Is that what passes for the inerrant 'Word of God" now? A "faithful replica"? - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I agree.
But how much of the Bible are written words quoted from God?

I would like to extend the criteria to include all the books of prophecy. What do you think?

Parts of those books are historic narrative. I don't consider that part to be prophetic.
The first verse in Isaiah chapter one is not prophetic, but the rest of the chapter is.
Same with the second chapter. Chapter three is all prophetic, and so on.

Isaiah 1:1 NIV
The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw
during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

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[Wick Stick]

Parts of those books are historic narrative. I don't consider that part to be prophetic.
The first verse in Isaiah chapter one is not prophetic, but the rest of the chapter is.
Same with the second chapter. Chapter three is all prophetic, and so on.

Isaiah 1:1 NIV
The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw
during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Doesn't seem like we have an agreement. Let me try to persuade you...

In Acts 2, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter, freshly filled with the Holy Ghost, delivers a sermon. In that sermon, he quotes from Psalm 16 at some length, and then pronounces that David was a prophet.

The problem is that there's nothing in Psalm 16 to suggest that it's a prophecy. Honestly, there's little written anywhere to suggest that David was a prophet at all... other than Peter saying so in a passage where he is clearly inspired.

So, then, it would seem that the apostles deemed the words of a prophet to be on the level of a prophecy... even in a spot where the text doesn't indicate such.

And if you were to go throughout the New Testament and look at all the places where it quotes from the Old Testament, you would find that all of the apostles treat David this way. Psalms is the most quoted book, including lots of "IT IS WRITTEN" sort of quotations. I know this because I did that study once upon a time (Deuteronomy is the 2nd most quoted).

So I figure... if it was good enough for Peter and Paul, it's good enough for me!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It's only Protestants whose cornerstone is the Bible, and that has only been the case since the Reformation.

Jesus is the cornerstone that the builders rejected. He is God, the Word and the Bible His message to man. Faith comes by the Word of God. The purpose of life is to be reconciled to God through Christ and have a relationship with God. And so now we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and have direct communication with God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Doesn't seem like we have an agreement. Let me try to persuade you...

In Acts 2, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter, freshly filled with the Holy Ghost, delivers a sermon. In that sermon, he quotes from Psalm 16 at some length, and then pronounces that David was a prophet.

The problem is that there's nothing in Psalm 16 to suggest that it's a prophecy. Honestly, there's little written anywhere to suggest that David was a prophet at all... other than Peter saying so in a passage where he is clearly inspired.

So, then, it would seem that the apostles deemed the words of a prophet to be on the level of a prophecy... even in a spot where the text doesn't indicate such.

And if you were to go throughout the New Testament and look at all the places where it quotes from the Old Testament, you would find that all of the apostles treat David this way. Psalms is the most quoted book, including lots of "IT IS WRITTEN" sort of quotations. I know this because I did that study once upon a time (Deuteronomy is the 2nd most quoted).

So I figure... if it was good enough for Peter and Paul, it's good enough for me!

Maybe you have the wrong perspective of what a Prophet is. A Prophet speaks forth the word of God whether it's past, present or future information. We tend to think of prophecy as future only, but it really is all inclusive. Psalms, songs about God, reflections, feelings expressed and inspired, are comforting important words. I am equally thankful for those comforting words, what was and is. I am saved by grace through faith in Christ and that faith came from His all inclusive Word; but now I am drawn to the future and so have delved into eschatology for a long time.
The Great Tribulation, a period of judgment is on the horizon. I believe we are seeing the "beggining of sorrows" in the world today spoken about in Matthew 24. Likely the four Seals have been opened in Revelation 6. Lawlessness is spreading. Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, earthquakes in various places becoming more frequent. Stressful times like never before are coming. Hold onto your faith. Get ready!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Which one of the 60 versions is the inerrant "Word of God"?
Did "an All Mighty God... preserve His Word"?

/

His inerrant word would be the original manuscripts Hebrew and Greek, but His truth is within all thise versions. Someone could pick up anyone of those versions and be led to Christ.

Let's try half of thise versiiins of one popular verse - they all give the same message.
ASV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
AMP
“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.
CSB
For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
CEB
God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.
CJB
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.
DARBY
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
DRA
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
GNV
For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
GNT
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
JUB
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
LSB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
TLB
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

MOUNCE
“For this is how God loved · the world: he gave his one and only Son · that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
NABRE
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

NCV
“God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.
NET
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
NIV
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NKJV
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NLV
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. Whoever puts his trust in God’s Son will not be lost but will have life that lasts forever.

NRSVA
‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
OJB
For Hashem so had ahavah (agape) for the Olam Hazeh that Hashem gave the matanah (gift) [Isa 9:5 (6)] of Hashem’s Ben Yechid [Gn 22:12; Prov 30:4; 8:30} so that whosoever has emunah in him may not be ne’evad (lost, perish, be ruined with destruction), but find Chayyei Olam [Daniel 12:2].
RSV
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
WEB
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
WYC
For God loved so the world [Forsooth God so loved the world], that he gave his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life.
YLT
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

 

[Hobie]

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism,
Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR...

There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.

Apokatastasis was a major part of Christian theology in the early church.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin,
Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the
two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem,
Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha,
Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,
and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

--- Agree or disagree? ---

Quotes from the early church fathers in the next post.


@Chadrho @Patrick1966

The devil is very ingenious in how he presents his lies and even who he has bring them. Thus we grasp why Peter was told 'get thee behind me satan' , as Christ saw and was able to discern who.was behind these idea coming out of a seemingly faithful disciple...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is that what passes for the inerrant 'Word of God" now? A "faithful replica"? - LOL

/

There are over 5000 extant Greek manuscripts. Between these manuscripts, there are thousands of variants. However, most of these variants are not significant and do not affect the meaning or doctrine of the New Testament. They are mostly due to spelling differences, word order changes, synonyms, or minor additions or omissions. Only a small fraction of the variants are meaningful and affect the interpretation of the text. Therefore, it is more important to consider the nature and quality of the variants than the number.

I resent your mocking tone. If you don't believe in God, trust the Biblical record, or agree with Protestant teaching, then at least take a neutral and objective stance in your posts.

 

[Wick Stick]

Jesus is the cornerstone that the builders rejected. He is God, the Word and the Bible His message to man. Faith comes by the Word of God. The purpose of life is to be reconciled to God through Christ and have a relationship with God. And so now we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and have direct communication with God.

He should be! But that hasn't always been the case, in my experience.

 

[Wick Stick]

Maybe you have the wrong perspective of what a Prophet is. A Prophet speaks forth the word of God whether it's past, present or future information. We tend to think of prophecy as future only, but it really is all inclusive. Psalms, songs about God, reflections, feelings expressed and inspired, are comforting important words. I am equally thankful for those comforting words, what was and is. I am saved by grace through faith in Christ and that faith came from His all inclusive Word; but now I am drawn to the future and so have delved into eschatology for a long time.
The Great Tribulation, a period of judgment is on the horizon. I believe we are seeing the "beggining of sorrows" in the world today spoken about in Matthew 24. Likely the four Seals have been opened in Revelation 6. Lawlessness is spreading. Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, earthquakes in various places becoming more frequent. Stressful times like never before are coming. Hold onto your faith. Get ready!

I wasn't denying that David was a prophet.

I was pointing out that David IS a prophet, even though he doesn't claim to be one (to the best of my knowledge). There is unlabeled prophecy in the Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

Doesn't seem like we have an agreement. Let me try to persuade you...

Please do, thanks.
You are an asset to the forum.
I really appreciate you.

In Acts 2, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter, freshly filled with the Holy Ghost, delivers a sermon. In that sermon, he quotes from Psalm 16 at some length, and then pronounces that David was a prophet.

The problem is that there's nothing in Psalm 16 to suggest that it's a prophecy. Honestly, there's little written anywhere to suggest that David was a prophet at all... other than Peter saying so in a passage where he is clearly inspired.

Yes, I would agree that David was a Prophet on some level.
We probably need to recognize two things about Prophets. (capital P)
Not everything that they say or write is prophetic. (foretelling)
But some things, especially in the case of David are inspired.
I would even go so far as to say that his poetry was God-breathed.
But that doesn't make it prophetic. (foretelling)

So, then, it would seem that the apostles deemed the words of a prophet to be on the level of a prophecy... even in a spot where the text doesn't indicate such.

I don't think that conclusion holds true. IMHO
I would deem words to be of a prophecy when "spoken from God" and written by the Prophet.
The Prophet is a conduit for a prophetic message speaking ON BEHALF of God.
Their weekly grocery list doesn't count. - LOL

And if you were to go throughout the New Testament and look at all the places where it quotes from the Old Testament, you would find that all of the apostles treat David this way. Psalms is the most quoted book, including lots of "IT IS WRITTEN" sort of quotations. I know this because I did that study once upon a time (Deuteronomy is the 2nd most quoted).

I don't take the term "IT IS WRITTEN" as an indication that something is prophetic.
To me that means it is SCRIPTURAL. Or at a minimum, quoted from a scroll. (writing)

So I figure... if it was good enough for Peter and Paul, it's good enough for me!

Well presented, thanks.
Did I change your mind?
Rebuttal is welcome.
Pretty sure you won't let me off that easily. - LOL

/

 

[St. SteVen]

His inerrant word would be the original manuscripts Hebrew and Greek

Too bad they no longer exist.
Can you honestly hold up your Bible and declare it as "His inerrant word"?

but His truth is within all thise versions. Someone could pick up anyone of those versions and be led to Christ.

Now there's something we can agree on.

YLT
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I especially like this one. What does "age-during" mean?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

The devil is very ingenious in how he presents his lies and even who he has bring them. Thus we grasp why Peter was told 'get thee behind me satan' , as Christ saw and was able to discern who.was behind these idea coming out of a seemingly faithful disciple...

 

[St. SteVen]

The devil is very ingenious in how he presents his lies and even who he has bring them. Thus we grasp why Peter was told 'get thee behind me satan' , as Christ saw and was able to discern who.was behind these idea coming out of a seemingly faithful disciple...

The doctrine of Apokatastasis predates the canon of the Bible. Not some new idea of our day.
At least four of the six theological schools of the early church held to Apokatastasis. (UR)
And other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

/