An Appeal for Free Speech

[Aunty Jane]

In response to having a post deleted as per ‘newer’ forum rules, FWIW, can we please have some equality on the issue of the trinity? Apparently it cannot be discussed either for or against this very controversial doctrine, yet many posts are still appearing on this topic and only one group is being gagged as far as I can see.

Is it a “choice of words” issue? Is it “only certain words or phrases” that are not allowed?

There are no rules about debating it in a pm with one another xx

Hi Rita, a debate with no audience is not a debate, and negates the basis for having one.

If people are not equipped with the truth, and what the Bible says about both sides of this doctrine, how are they ever going to be able to defend their faith? Both sides claim to be “Christians” and should defend their position in a Christian manner. I do not see that as asking too much. No one has anything to fear from the truth. And no one can come to Christ unless they have the Father’s permission. (John 6:65)

The problem as I see it, and it is very evident, is that some people lose their civility and behave badly when their beliefs are challenged….wasn’t this the case also in Jesus’ day? The Pharisees had the majority of the people under the impression that what they taught was the truth, and what Jesus taught was heresy…..and what they attempted to do to Jesus and his disciples, was to silence them. Are we not grateful that they did not succeed? Those who wanted to hear Jesus teach, chose to do so….and those who opposed him, chose not to….and we saw that their hatred festered into murder. (Matt 27:25)

Gamaliel’s speech to his fellow Jewish leaders, who were intent on ridding themselves of these opposers, rings as true today as it did back then….

Acts 5:38-39….
”So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”

Wise words……not leaving God out of the situation. Didn’t Jesus promise that no one would ‘snatch his disciples out of his hand’? (John 10:28-29) Where is that faith demonstrated in a place where censorship does not allow freedom of speech because some cannot control their anger?

We have the “ignore” button so that those who choose not to see what we write, don’t have to….but it’s everyone’s choice and their right to see opposing arguments. Why is that choice taken away?

Wouldn’t it be better to ban those who exhibit no self-control and who behave in an unchristian manner, rather than to gag those who simply want to tell the other side of the story, with scriptural support, and with civility?

The great thing about this site is that it is not simply an ‘echo chamber’, which is why most of us are here….freedom of speech is dying in this world, so please don’t let this site die with it.
I believe that is the reason why many sites end up closing down, because free speech is stifled and people look for a site where they can express themselves without censorship. The good thing about having an Unorthodox Forum is that people can choose to go there….or stay away. Place a warning at the entrance and penalize those who offend the rules, as well as each other. Requiring Christian behavior is then the objective.

I understand the problem, but can we appeal this? At least allow us one place to speak freely, and ban those who cannot behave in a Christian manner, and who turn their posts into personal attacks.…and please know how much we appreciate your efforts to stop the rot….just do it fairly, is all we ask…..

 

[PS95]

In response to having a post deleted as per ‘newer’ forum rules, FWIW, can we please have some equality on the issue of the trinity? Apparently it cannot be discussed either for or against this very controversial doctrine, yet many posts are still appearing on this topic and only one group is being gagged as far as I can see.

Is it a “choice of words” issue? Is it “only certain words or phrases” that are not allowed?


Hi Rita, a debate with no audience is not a debate, and negates the basis for having one.

If people are not equipped with the truth, and what the Bible says about both sides of this doctrine, how are they ever going to be able to defend their faith? Both sides claim to be “Christians” and should defend their position in a Christian manner. I do not see that as asking too much. No one has anything to fear from the truth. And no one can come to Christ unless they have the Father’s permission. (John 6:65)

The problem as I see it, and it is very evident, is that some people lose their civility and behave badly when their beliefs are challenged….wasn’t this the case also in Jesus’ day? The Pharisees had the majority of the people under the impression that what they taught was the truth, and what Jesus taught was heresy…..and what they attempted to do to Jesus and his disciples, was to silence them. Are we not grateful that they did not succeed? Those who wanted to hear Jesus teach, chose to do so….and those who opposed him, chose not to….and we saw that their hatred festered into murder. (Matt 27:25)

Gamaliel’s speech to his fellow Jewish leaders, who were intent on ridding themselves of these opposers, rings as true today as it did back then….

Acts 5:38-39….
”So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”

Wise words……not leaving God out of the situation. Didn’t Jesus promise that no one would ‘snatch his disciples out of his hand’? (John 10:28-29) Where is that faith demonstrated in a place where censorship does not allow freedom of speech because some cannot control their anger?

We have the “ignore” button so that those who choose not to see what we write, don’t have to….but it’s everyone’s choice and their right to see opposing arguments. Why is that choice taken away?

Wouldn’t it be better to ban those who exhibit no self-control and who behave in an unchristian manner, rather than to gag those who simply want to tell the other side of the story, with scriptural support, and with civility?

The great thing about this site is that it is not simply an ‘echo chamber’, which is why most of us are here….freedom of speech is dying in this world, so please don’t let this site die with it.
I believe that is the reason why many sites end up closing down, because free speech is stifled and people look for a site where they can express themselves without censorship. The good thing about having an Unorthodox Forum is that people can choose to go there….or stay away. Place a warning at the entrance and penalize those who offend the rules, as well as each other. Requiring Christian behavior is then the objective.

I understand the problem, but can we appeal this? At least allow us one place to speak freely, and ban those who cannot behave in a Christian manner, and who turn their posts into personal attacks.…and please know how much we appreciate your efforts to stop the rot….just do it fairly, is all we ask…..

Hello Jane,
It's not a free speech issue.
It's called a policy. And one that you repeatedly ignore.
It is for the good of the forum for a little bit of peace and less regurgitation of the dead horse kicking.
It aggravates you to no end that we worship and exalt Jesus to the glory of God our Father. It is a Christian forum after all.
We wont stop that and especially to entertain the Jw PET issue- that is used primarily to divert topics.
Jws teach that Christians are, "so-called Christians"-- who worship Satan.

Please for once-Take your pointed finger at these people, and point it towards the mirror. Uneven scales are hated by God.
---WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY any of this below ?
"Impersonal life-force of Michael was implanted into Mary's womb" so Michael went out of existence- Jesus then came into existence-.He wasn't the Lord or Christ then just, a perfect human named, Jesus. Then, Jesus died, so that "life force" went back to heaven, so God re-created Michael with it. The man, Jesus is dead forever.. and his body was dissolved likely burned into gases
And you have the gall to despise the trinity? I have all documentation for that above so don't lie to these people.

I don't even know why you call yourself a Christian on here?
How can a Christian be a person who believes and teachers others that you and they are
NOT a child of God,
Not in the new covenant
Not a part of the body of Christ
Do not cry out, ABBA, Father
Not born again,
Not and heir,
Jesus is not your mediator,
Jesus did not die for your sins
NOT declared righteous
Not baptizes into Jesus' death
Not freed from being slaves to sin
Not branches of the true vine
Not partakers of His communion
Not united with Jesus in the likeness of His death ETC ETC

You have all of that ( and more) in common with Unbelievers. That describes an unbeliever perfectly.
Tell us again why we should read anything you write let alone -- on the the deity of Christ?

Again, free speech is not the issue. Do JWs even allow ME or any Christian on their boards at all? NO. it's a policy.

 

[lforrest]

Please see the statement of faith. Christianity Board Statement of Faith
We are steering the site in a direction that assumes all Christian members agree with some central tenants of the faith. And these are the minimum standard we are now setting for the site. For those who disagree with the statement of faith we leave the option of remaining silent on those issues or changing to other faith members.

 

[Rita]

In response to having a post deleted as per ‘newer’ forum rules, FWIW, can we please have some equality on the issue of the trinity? Apparently it cannot be discussed either for or against this very controversial doctrine, yet many posts are still appearing on this topic and only one group is being gagged as far as I can see.

Is it a “choice of words” issue? Is it “only certain words or phrases” that are not allowed?


Hi Rita, a debate with no audience is not a debate, and negates the basis for having one.

Hi Aunty Jane
Just to address the confusion. The trinity can be talked about, it is however a close handed subject , which means it cannot be argued against. This is a Trinity believing forum.
You can debate publicly or privately, it’s still a debate. I was merely offering an alternative for a member to carry on the discussion they were having. ( perhaps I should have used ‘ discussion ‘ instead of ‘ debate ‘ ) Also many members can be added to a pm conversation.
I don’t intend to discuss the policy , it’s been in place since feb and as a mod I don’t have the power to change it anyway. Each member can either choose to accept the policies or not, no one forces anyone to stay here.

 

[amadeus]

In response to having a post deleted as per ‘newer’ forum rules, FWIW, can we please have some equality on the issue of the trinity? Apparently it cannot be discussed either for or against this very controversial doctrine, yet many posts are still appearing on this topic and only one group is being gagged as far as I can see.

Is it a “choice of words” issue? Is it “only certain words or phrases” that are not allowed?


Hi Rita, a debate with no audience is not a debate, and negates the basis for having one.

If people are not equipped with the truth, and what the Bible says about both sides of this doctrine, how are they ever going to be able to defend their faith? Both sides claim to be “Christians” and should defend their position in a Christian manner. I do not see that as asking too much. No one has anything to fear from the truth. And no one can come to Christ unless they have the Father’s permission. (John 6:65)

The problem as I see it, and it is very evident, is that some people lose their civility and behave badly when their beliefs are challenged….wasn’t this the case also in Jesus’ day? The Pharisees had the majority of the people under the impression that what they taught was the truth, and what Jesus taught was heresy…..and what they attempted to do to Jesus and his disciples, was to silence them. Are we not grateful that they did not succeed? Those who wanted to hear Jesus teach, chose to do so….and those who opposed him, chose not to….and we saw that their hatred festered into murder. (Matt 27:25)

Gamaliel’s speech to his fellow Jewish leaders, who were intent on ridding themselves of these opposers, rings as true today as it did back then….

Acts 5:38-39….
”So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”

Wise words……not leaving God out of the situation. Didn’t Jesus promise that no one would ‘snatch his disciples out of his hand’? (John 10:28-29) Where is that faith demonstrated in a place where censorship does not allow freedom of speech because some cannot control their anger?

We have the “ignore” button so that those who choose not to see what we write, don’t have to….but it’s everyone’s choice and their right to see opposing arguments. Why is that choice taken away?

Wouldn’t it be better to ban those who exhibit no self-control and who behave in an unchristian manner, rather than to gag those who simply want to tell the other side of the story, with scriptural support, and with civility?

The great thing about this site is that it is not simply an ‘echo chamber’, which is why most of us are here….freedom of speech is dying in this world, so please don’t let this site die with it.
I believe that is the reason why many sites end up closing down, because free speech is stifled and people look for a site where they can express themselves without censorship. The good thing about having an Unorthodox Forum is that people can choose to go there….or stay away. Place a warning at the entrance and penalize those who offend the rules, as well as each other. Requiring Christian behavior is then the objective.

I understand the problem, but can we appeal this? At least allow us one place to speak freely, and ban those who cannot behave in a Christian manner, and who turn their posts into personal attacks.…and please know how much we appreciate your efforts to stop the rot….just do it fairly, is all we ask…..

I agree with you on this, but unfortunately, the powers that be are certain that their stand is so right that even discussion or debate against it cannot be allowed.

 

[amadeus]

Please see the statement of faith. Christianity Board Statement of Faith
We are steering the site in a direction that assumes all Christian members agree with some central tenants of the faith. And these are the minimum standard we are now setting for the site. For those who disagree with the statement of faith we leave the option of remaining silent on those issues or changing to other faith members.

Silence then...!

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: Ecc 3:1

...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; Ecc 3:7

 

[amadeus]

...
Just to address the confusion. The trinity can be talked about, it is however a close handed subject , which means it cannot be argued against. This is a Trinity believing forum.

But since quite a few members cannot see or embrace a Trinity, the belief is far from unanimous.

 

[shepherdsword]

I think debating the Trinity and the deity of Christ is perfectly fine. In the non-Christian forums. Both of those doctrines are essentials to the Christian faith. Belief in them should be a requirement for a Christian tag

 

[Rita]

But since quite a few members cannot see or embrace a Trinity, the belief is far from unanimous.

It’s always been part of the statement of faith , so when anyone joins and reads it they either know they will agree or not, after that they make the choice to join. Many churches won’t allow membership unless the SOF is agreed upon. We allow many discussions on many things with differing views, and many forums ban discussing the trinity totally. We did try this - it doesn’t matter what we do as we never please everyone and always get criticism.

 

[PS95]

And there it is. …..I rest my case.

Not permitted a response…..

Now now, you were too impatient, Auntie.
It was a Christian holiday after all.
The resurrection of Jesus Christ which Jw's deny.
I was so grateful that my JW mom did not deny the bodily resurrection of the Lord, although she was afraid to admit it to the elders because she would have been dis-fellowshipped and shunned and called an apostate.

 

[amadeus]

It’s always been part of the statement of faith , so when anyone joins and reads it they either know they will agree or not, after that they make the choice to join. Many churches won’t allow membership unless the SOF is agreed upon. We allow many discussions on many things with differing views, and many forums ban discussing the trinity totally. We did try this - it doesn’t matter what we do as we never please everyone and always get criticism.

Yes, I know it was there as the SOF when I joined but believing it was not required and I did not. Also, discussions or debates doubting or opposing the existence a trinity were allowed. This is not the first forum which changed the rules, or enforcement of the rules, after I was a member. I am not arguing the point... only stating what happened.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s always been part of the statement of faith , so when anyone joins and reads it they either know they will agree or not, after that they make the choice to join. Many churches won’t allow membership unless the SOF is agreed upon. We allow many discussions on many things with differing views, and many forums ban discussing the trinity totally. We did try this - it doesn’t matter what we do as we never please everyone and always get criticism.

There are many here who do not uphold the trinity to be a scriptural doctrine, but rather an adoption of the Roman Catholic faith, only made official “church” doctrine, hundreds of years after the death of Jesus Christ. No one seems to wants to acknowledge this.
If there was no trinity in the OT, from which Christ and his apostles taught, (2 Tim 3:16-17) then how did God and his son “morph” into something they never were, in what makes up the majority of the Holy Scriptures? (rhetorical question)

God and his promised Messiah are all through the OT, as is the power of God’s spirit, but never are they mentioned as a triune, three in one, entity. We do not deny the Christ or God’s holy spirit….we just cannot accept them as one being. Does that disqualify us from bearing the title “Christian”?

One place on the site where people can come and discuss debatable subjects freely, but who are under obligation to be civil in their discussion is all we ask……like it should be in all the forums.

Shouldn’t we be making people accountable for their behavior, not just their theology?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Please see the statement of faith. Christianity Board Statement of Faith
We are steering the site in a direction that assumes all Christian members agree with some central tenants of the faith. And these are the minimum standard we are now setting for the site. For those who disagree with the statement of faith we leave the option of remaining silent on those issues or changing to other faith members.

But we are not “other faith” members…we are Christians with a different perspective on who God is and who Christ is, and what role the Holy Spirit plays. If the fundamental things of the Christian faith are flawed, whatever you build on them will also be flawed.

@Iforrest I understand that many sites forbid discussion of the trinity for obvious reasons…..it does bring out the worst in some people, who disqualify themselves from being “Christians” by their appalling conduct ….and I fully understand that you, and all the mods here sacrifice your time and energy trying to keep the peace, but I also know that advertisers will pull out of supporting sites that fail to attract members. When you ban certain “hot” topics, you become just another echo chamber where true debate on the most important subjects is forbidden. Who is God? Who is Jesus Christ? (John 17:3) These questions are listed by Jesus himself as salvation issues. We have to “know” them both.

Who can be so certain of the validity of their beliefs, that they cannot be called into question?…my own included. Just because the majority believe something, doesn’t make it true….didn’t the Pharisees teach us that? It was a hated minority who had the truth, but the Jewish leadership were so smug about who they were, and what they taught, that they missed the opportunity to be taught by God’s own son….and be saved by his blood.
Their hatred turned to murder. It was their attitude that made the difference.

The Christian label can be claimed by anyone, but calling yourself a “Christian” and behaving like one should go hand in hand. For those who lose their cool over a difference of opinion, and who cannot provide substantiation for their position scripturally, and then show by their conduct that they have no self control, then their bad behavior is not a substitute for truth.

One place where civil discussion only is allowed on this subject is all that is asked.
Please don’t let this site become like those others where gagging people only stifles free speech. It does not address the behavior of those who spoil it for everyone else.
“Christian” is a title earned, not just applied because you choose to believe something without knowledge.

We are to defend our faith in the salvation offered by the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, as the apostles said. (1 Pet 3:15; Col 4:6)
Make the offenders accountable for their behavior and you will have a site where there is peace, and the hot heads will be forced to go somewhere else to behave badly.

Look up “close handed” in the dictionary….it’s not a nice definition….