Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

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Scott Downey

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If anyone is to be saved they must become part of the one flock with Christ as their great shepherd.
Christ has the preeminence. Anyone saying elsewise is a thief and robber.

Christ is the door. There is no other way to climb up to heaven to God

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”
 
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Davy

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@shepherdsword is right though. There is no contradiction. Only that some thought that Israel would not be back, so they figured out ways to interpret the Bible without Israel, the chosen nation.

Much love!

Yes, and that has a lot to do with why the early European Christian Church sought to take control of Jerusalem with their Crusades. But what happened? God let the followers of Islam possess it, even as their Dome of the Rock is still planted upon the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Only for short periods was Jerusalem controlled by Christians.

Yet there's still a problem with some folk's interpretation of Scripture like that Amos 9, especially deceived Jews today regarding the nation of Israel...


The following HAS NOT HAPPENED YET today...


Amos 9:9-12
9 For, lo, I will command, and
I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

That's about Christ's future gathering of the ten lost tribes. That ain't happening with the return of Jews back to the holy land in the past century. Those ten lost tribes of Israel are still... lost to the Jews, and to the world, to this day.

10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, 'The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.'

11
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

That raising up of the "tabernacle of David" again is about the restoration of David's throne in Jerusalem. That has NOT happened yet today, for there is no one in Jerusalem of the house of David sitting upon a throne of Israel there. This too will ONLY occur at Christ's future coming, and Ezekiel 37 gives us a small reference to it about David as king again there in final.

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.
KJV


Who are those that "are called by My name"? Those are Christians, called by Christ's Name. According to the Old Testament prophets, the gathering back of Israel is to include the Gentiles, called by Christ's Name also. It means the future gathered Israel of Bible prophecy means an Israel under Jesus Christ, and that means His Church. Do we see that happening in today's nation state of Israel? Nope! It's not time for it yet.

So likewise, that Amos 9:13-15 Scripture actually has not... happened yet today, and is not happening today with Jews returning, for the Jews represent only a portion of total Israelites.
 
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covenantee

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Maybe a review of Zechariah is in order for you, but I wonder whether that will help you considering the violence you do to the text.

Anyway, this will only continue to be a fruitless exchange. I simply encourage you to believe the words written in the normal way they would be understood by the original speaker and hearer, without substituting meanings to something that "makes more sense to you".

Hear God.

Much love!
In Romans 9:27 Paul quotes Isaiah, not Zechariah.

Why didn't you notice that?
 

Scott Downey

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The Narrow Way​

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

31 [i]On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”

32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be [j]perfected.’ 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
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There is no future except death once the door is shut after the Master has shut the door. Everyone on the inside, HE knows, those on the outside, he will not open the door and let them in. Matters not if they be jew or gentile. The Master saves those whom He purchased as His own possession with His blood of the New Covenant, you are not a member if you do not believe and do not obey the gospel.

Christ owns the sheep and those are who He cares for.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

.
 
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WPM

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Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
More noise and zero evidence.
 

WPM

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Sure thing brother

The destruction is sudden once the judgements begin. Lets look here
Rv 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame
.

This is between the 6th and 7th vial. The destruction comes suddenly but it is a progression of every increasing judgements that culminate in the coming of the Lord. His coming as a thief doesn't mean what you think it does




Once again we see your compression of an event that is spanned out over many years. Let's look here:

1 Co 15:23-26
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.(this is the purpose of the millenium)
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here we see the progression. The elements do not pass away until the kingdom is delivered to the father and he creates the new heaven and new earth.
Congratulations on ignoring both passages he asked you to explain. The only thing that is obsolete and outdated is your arguments. They died a long time ago. It is time to give them a decent burial.

Nothing seems to have changed with you from the old days. This is how you function. Avoidance and name-calling is your MO.
 
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The Light

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Yes, there is only one people of God. Jesus calls them ONE FLOCK, with one shepherd who leads them
Yes, and the part you miss is that there are two folds into one fold

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

WPM

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Yes, and the part you miss is that there are two folds into one fold

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Yes! Elect Jews and Gentiles are now one. There are no other elect.
 
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Scott Downey

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Yes, and the part you miss is that there are two folds into one fold

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That is referring to the broader world beyond Israel. those who will believe in Christ in the future. Christ foreknows His own sheep. They will still join in as one flock.

Since there is only one flock and one shepherd, to be saved, you must be joined to the one flock. There are never 2 or 3 or more different flocks.
 

Scott Downey

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The concept of one, as in one flock, one shepherd, ONE BODY, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one door for the sheep, only one way to the Father in heaven, one God.

Israel learned there was also only one Temple where God would except sacrifices, pointing to Christ as the only one acceptable sacrifice for eternal life.

Ephesians 4

I, therefore, the prisoner [a]of the Lord, [b]beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all.

Hebrews 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you [f]complete in every good work to do His will, working in [g]you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,


He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
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covenantee

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That is referring to the broader world beyond Israel. those who will believe in Christ in the future. Christ foreknows His own sheep. They will still join in as one flock.

Since there is only one flock and one shepherd, to be saved, you must be joined to the one flock. There are never 2 or 3 or more different flocks.
Actually bro, I believe that the other sheep began to be brought into the one fold when the Gospel began to go to the Gentiles, taken by Paul beginning some 3.5 years after Calvary.
 
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Marty fox

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This I believe explains the truth


Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

This is how verse 26 should be understood

Once again now with descriptions of Zion and Jacob

“The Deliverer (Jesus) will come out of Zion,(national Israel)

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;(Spiritual Israel)

Why else would Israel be described differently?

All Israel in Paul's view is spiritual Israel made up of both Jew and Gentile that's the only way All Israel can be saved.

Galation 4
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
 

Scott Downey

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Actually bro, I believe that the other sheep began to be brought into the one fold when the Gospel began to go to the Gentiles, taken by Paul beginning some 3.5 years after Calvary.
Certainly. Everyone who is joined to the Lord in our new Covenant is one spirit with Him.

1 Corinthians 6:16
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”

17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
 
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Davy

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Actually bro, I believe that the other sheep began to be brought into the one fold when the Gospel began to go to the Gentiles, taken by Paul beginning some 3.5 years after Calvary.

The Gentiles are who Jesus was pointing to as the other fold.

But Jesus did not... go against what Apostle Paul said regarding Christ's Church as one body...

Col 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV



BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I hate to say it, but even believing Jews appear to have difficulty with understanding that God is not going to save the seed of Israel just because they are born of the seed of Israel. Apostle Paul revealed this point in Romans 9, about those of Faith on the Promise are 'counted' for the seed. That means Gentile believers also are 'counted' as the seed of Israel, in the spiritual Israel sense. And any of the actual literal seed of Israel that rejects Lord Jesus Christ will be 'cut off'. There is no such thing as Salvation by flesh written of in God's Word.

So really, I get tired of hearing one-upman-ship remarks and interpretations by brother Judah, even though they are my brethren believers on Jesus Christ.
 
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The Light

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That is referring to the broader world beyond Israel. those who will believe in Christ in the future. Christ foreknows His own sheep. They will still join in as one flock.

Since there is only one flock and one shepherd, to be saved, you must be joined to the one flock. There are never 2 or 3 or more different flocks.
Agreed, there is only one flock, but there is more than one-fold. Hence, more than one rapture, and the 144,000 first fruits are proof of this.
 

Davy

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And yet part of Israel is blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will be the first fold.

The first fold were those among the children of Israel that believed on Him starting at His 1st coming, like His Apostles whom He was speaking to in John 10.

The other fold had not begun yet, not until Christ was crucified and The Gospel would be sent to the Gentiles after He was rejected at Jerusalem.
 

Scott Downey

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This I believe explains the truth


Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

This is how verse 26 should be understood

Once again now with descriptions of Zion and Jacob

“The Deliverer (Jesus) will come out of Zion,(national Israel)

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;(Spiritual Israel)

Why else would Israel be described differently?

All Israel in Paul's view is spiritual Israel made up of both Jew and Gentile that's the only way All Israel can be saved.

Galation 4
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Yes, true Israel is born according to the Spirit, not the flesh. Not all are Abraham's children.

And who does Christ aid to salvation? The seed of Abraham, God says to Abraham in Isaac you seed shall be called.

Hebrews 2 is referring to the children God gave to Christ as believers (the seed of Abraham, the children of promise). They are of God so they hear God speak, if you do not hear, then you are not of God, John 8:47

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10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people (the children God gave Christ, who God is bringing to Glory). 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

***********************************************************************

Christ is the believer's Great High priest, who makes intercession for the people of God, Christ never prays for the world.
John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.


Read John 8 with Christ teaching about this very thing to the unbelieving Jews.
***********************************************************************

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s​

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Who do you serve? You hurl insults like a spawn of satan.
I serve Jesus Christ, the great God and Savior of the world. Get off your high horse and stop the holier than thou act. You come on here trying to say that Amillenniailsm is obsolete and and an outdated fabrication and that you destroyed Amil arguments on another board and all this nonsense and you expect me to play tiddly winks and hopscotch with you?

If I wanted to engage with a nasty trolling twit I would go to facebook. Check your behavior and watch your tongue. You are not demonstrating a thoughtful and compassionate person...much less a follower of Christ. Beware the doctrine of the Pharisees.
Look in the mirror, hypocrite.
 
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WPM

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And yet part of Israel is blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will be the first fold.
There are 2 peoples in Israel as there is an any nation - the blinded and the elect.