Amil, Premil, poster list

[Arthur81]

I am starting this thread for everyone's benefit. Please add your name to list of what you are - whether, Amil or Premil. Copy and paste the list from the previous post, so that the list grows as each person adds their name.

Premil
@Douggg
@MA2444
@th1b.taylor
@ewq1938

Amil
@WPM
@Spiritual Israelite
@Marty fox
@grafted branch
@jeffweeder

The Millennium is from the cross to the return of Christ, the 1000 years being symbolic, not literal, so the coming of Christ is after the millennium, POST-MIL. The gospel spreads the God's kingdom across the world, and it changes mankind over time.

Jesus said about the Jews: "For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt 7:14 NRSV)

About the Gentiles, Jesus said: "When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 8:10-11 NRSV)

The "Post-Mil" position I hold views the kingdom of God as Jesus described it over time:

He also said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable will we use for it? It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32 NRSV)

He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.” (Matt 13:33 NRSV)
*To say the kingdom of heaven is like evil yeast, is absurd!

There is no such thing as a 7-year tribulation as taught by many. Matthew 24:1-35 are about the coming destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The 490 years of Daniel 9:24 are continuous and end when Stephen preaches his sermon of indictment against the Jews, and then the sentence was carried out in 70 AD. See attached timeline.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the millennium is already over, I guess you can put me down for Aftermil or something like that.

Your view is called Postmillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I listed you under the Amil group. If you don't want that, say so. I am not going start a new category called "Aftermil".

There is a known view called Postmillennialism held by some partial preterists and his view lines up with that. Unlike Amils, they think things continually get better in the world until Jesus returns while we believe Satan's little season shows that things get worse until His return.

If you look at that other forum we both post on in the Eschatology area, you can see that there are different "safe house" threads on there and one of them is called "Post Millennialism safe house". So, there are some out there, like grafted branch, who believe in Postmil.

 

[Marty fox]

I see it as Satan being bound from gathering the nations to destroy Jerusalem and I see the Galatians 2:9 agreement that James, Peter, and John were to go to the circumcision, as something that was never rescinded.

So I come to the conclusion that Revelation was written to the circumcision, meaning that those of the circumcision who were beheaded lived and reigned for the thousand years. Saved Gentiles also live and reigned but I don’t think they are in view in Revelation 20. I see the end of the old covenant circumcision happening in 70AD, when the nations (Gentiles) surrounded the camp of the saints (Jerusalem) and fire came down (in judgment) and devoured them (those who didn’t flee).

As far as “the rest of the dead” there are several possibilities. Luke 9:60 says let the dead bury their dead, and Luke 17:30-31 says that the Son of man is revealed in the day that they are to flee.

When I put these verses together I come up with the dead having Christ revealed to them which causes them to flee and live after the thousand years are finished, just prior to Satans little season.

Except for earthly Jerusalem isn't the camp of the saints the camp of the saints is the heavenly Jerusalem the bride of Christ the saints made up of both Jews and gentiles

 

[grafted branch]

Except for earthly Jerusalem isn't the camp of the saints the camp of the saints is the heavenly Jerusalem the bride of Christ the saints made up of both Jews and gentiles

The physical city of Jerusalem was the camp of the old covenant saints.

How would it be possible to go up on the breadth of the earth and compass new Jerusalem when it doesn’t come down till Revelation 21:2?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The physical city of Jerusalem was the camp of the old covenant saints.

How would it be possible to go up on the breadth of the earth and compass new Jerusalem when it doesn’t come down till Revelation 21:2?

You're missing the symbolism in Revelation 20. It's not meant to be taken literally the way you are doing.

 

[grafted branch]

You're missing the symbolism in Revelation 20. It's not meant to be taken literally the way you are doing.

So symbolically the unsaved can go to heaven and surround new Jerusalem? Can you give more details on how this is symbolically possible?

 

[Marty fox]

The physical city of Jerusalem was the camp of the old covenant saints.

How would it be possible to go up on the breadth of the earth and compass new Jerusalem when it doesn’t come down till Revelation 21:2?

Yes the old covenant not the new covenant.

We the church are the bride of Christ, true spiritual Israel the new Jerusalem now while on earth and in heaven.

Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

&

9-10
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes the old covenant not the new covenant.

We the church are the bride of Christ, true spiritual Israel the new Jerusalem now while on earth and in heaven.

Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

&

9-10
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Yea, I agree with this, currently new covenant believers are the bride of Christ and we dwell in new Jerusalem, at least spiritually speaking. But this doesn’t really prove one way or the other what “ camp of the saints” is being referred to in Revelation 20:9.

I guess this is just another one of those things that can be debated based on how we interpret several other verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So symbolically the unsaved can go to heaven and surround new Jerusalem? Can you give more details on how this is symbolically possible?

The new heavenly Jerusalem is not just in heaven. It is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). It's a symbolic representation of the church. Do you have something against symbolism? I can't understand your trouble with this.

Have you never read this:

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Can you see here how this says we HAVE COME "to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...to the church of the firstborn"? That's present tense. We haven't literally gone to the new heavenly Jerusalem in heaven, but we are spiritually part of it even now. Make sense? So, the symbolic depiction of it being surrounded in Revelation 20 is simply a reference to opposition and persecution of the church happening worldwide before Jesus returns. Which lines up with other scripture as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yea, I agree with this, currently new covenant believers are the bride of Christ and we dwell in new Jerusalem, at least spiritually speaking. But this doesn’t really prove one way or the other what “ camp of the saints” is being referred to in Revelation 20:9.

Why doesn't it prove that? What other "beloved city" is there at this point than the new Jerusalem?

 

[grafted branch]

The new heavenly Jerusalem is not just in heaven. It is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). It's a symbolic representation of the church. Do you have something against symbolism? I can't understand your trouble with this.

Have you never read this:

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Can you see here how this says we HAVE COME "to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...to the church of the firstborn"? That's present tense. We haven't literally gone to the new heavenly Jerusalem in heaven, but we are spiritually part of it even now. Make sense? So, the symbolic depiction of it being surrounded in Revelation 20 is simply a reference to opposition and persecution of the church happening worldwide before Jesus returns. Which lines up with other scripture as well.

I get all that, are you saying that Revelation 21:2 has been fulfilled and new Jerusalem has come down out of heaven?

If not then why wouldn’t you symbolize that as being fulfilled? Since it would be possible for the unsaved to compass new Jerusalem.

 

[grafted branch]

Why doesn't it prove that? What other "beloved city" is there at this point than the new Jerusalem?

The physical city of Jerusalem was beloved and yes currently you can say new Jerusalem is beloved but that in itself doesn’t prove when Revelation 20:9 occurs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I get all that, are you saying that Revelation 21:2 has been fulfilled and new Jerusalem has come down out of heaven?

If not then why wouldn’t you symbolize that as being fulfilled? Since it would be possible for the unsaved to compass new Jerusalem.

No, of course not. New Jerusalem is BOTH in heaven and on earth. The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now and we obviously are here on earth now. Those of us in the church on earth are the "camp of the saints" that experiences opposition everywhere we are in the world because the world hates us, as Jesus said it would. But, both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time when the amount of deception and wickedness and opposition to the church would increase significantly before Jesus returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The physical city of Jerusalem was beloved and yes currently you can say new Jerusalem is beloved but that in itself doesn’t prove when Revelation 20:9 occurs.

Yes, it WAS beloved LONG ago, but it was no longer beloved when the book of Revelation was written. So, Revelation 20:9 can only be referring to the new heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Marty fox]

Yea, I agree with this, currently new covenant believers are the bride of Christ and we dwell in new Jerusalem, at least spiritually speaking. But this doesn’t really prove one way or the other what “ camp of the saints” is being referred to in Revelation 20:9.

I guess this is just another one of those things that can be debated based on how we interpret several other verses.

The New Jerusalem is the Holy City the city that God loves His bride

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Thus we are the city in verse 9

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The New Jerusalem is the Holy City the city that God loves His bride

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Thus we are the city in verse 9

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

I agree. I believe this is very clear and undeniable.

 

[grafted branch]

New Jerusalem is BOTH in heaven and on earth.

Are you kidding me? So is the lake of fire also both on earth and in outer darkness?

 

[grafted branch]

The New Jerusalem is the Holy City the city that God loves His bride

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Thus we are the city in verse 9

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Ok, so how do you explain new Jerusalem being in heaven while the unsaved surround it? Are you going to go down the same road SI took and claim it is in both heaven and earth at the same time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you kidding me? So is the lake of fire also both on earth and in outer darkness?

What in the world is going on here?! Of course I'm not kidding you. Earlier, you said "Yea, I agree with this, currently new covenant believers are the bride of Christ and we dwell in new Jerusalem, at least spiritually speaking.". But, now you have a problem with me saying that new Jerusalem is both in heaven and on earth? What gives here? Are you just so bent on disagreeing with me that you're even willing to contradict yourself in order to do so?

Do you believe in soul sleep or something? Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? If you do, then are they somehow not part of the church?