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[Spiritual Israelite]

Well I’m in new Jerusalem right now and I know there’s not two of them.

Who said anything about two new Jerusalems? Why do you think so carnally and not spiritually? We're talking about a spiritual entity here. The church. The body of Christ. Do you not include the dead in Christ, whose souls are in heaven now, as part of the church?

 

[grafted branch]

All Paul was saying in verse 9 here was that he and Barnabas would go preach to the Gentiles while James, Cephas/Peter and John would preach to the Jews. What does this have to do with anything as it relates to Revelation 20:9?

It means John wrote to a Jewish audience not a Gentile audience. So the word “saint” shouldn’t necessarily be taken to mean Gentile believers.

For example in Revelation 13:7 the saints are overcome. No where in the New Testament are the saints overcome, it is the saints that overcome evil. The old covenant saints are however overcome.

 

[grafted branch]

Who said anything about two new Jerusalems? Why do you think so carnally and not spiritually? We're talking about a spiritual entity here. The church. The body of Christ. Do you not include the dead in Christ, whose souls are in heaven now, as part of the church?

Yes, we are all in the one new heavenly Jerusalem, not a new earthly Jerusalem that can be surrounded.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It means John wrote to a Jewish audience not a Gentile audience. So the word “saint” shouldn’t necessarily be taken to mean Gentile believers.

No, he wrote to a Jew and Gentile audience in churches containing both Jew and Gentile believers in 7 churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia. You are just going completely out of your way to try to get Revelation to fit your doctrine and it's sad to see.

For example in Revelation 13:7 the saints are overcome. No where in the New Testament are the saints overcome, it is the saints that overcome evil. The old covenant saints are however overcome.

Not this again. Good grief. That's talking about them being martyred, not being overcome by evil. Ugh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, we are all in the one new heavenly Jerusalem, not a new earthly Jerusalem that can be surrounded.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

You are almost leaving me speechless. I cannot believe some of the things you are saying in this thread. Are we not on the earth right now? Have you considered that the text is symbolic and not intending to mean that we (the church, the new heavenly Jerusalem) are somehow going to be literally surrounded?

 

[Marty fox]

But the big difference between Seth to the time of Noah and the millennium is that Satan wasn’t bound during that time. I would think there should be a very distinct difference between when Satan is bound and when he isn’t.

Are you thinking it’s going to be some kind of gradual transition to the time Satan is loosed, so that it’s not something that can be easily quantified?


This has been going on since the churches first got started. The warnings in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 testify to this.

When I look back at some of the false predictions, like Harold Camping, about how the church had gone apostate and how Satan was already loosed, I have to be cautious because so many people in the past have fallen victim to the idea that we are currently in some kind of downward spiral that’s vastly different than anything that’s happened in the past.

Personally I have to trust the scripture and compare them to historical events and current events. Satans little season fits historical events in a much more precise manner than current events.

The camp of the saints referring to the church kinda fits but there is no demarcation between when the church wasn’t surrounded and when it was. And with no real definition of what going up on the breadth of the earth means, it seems to me there would be no way to definitively know if Satan was loosed or not. This is how people like Harold Camping could deceive others.

This all depends on what you think the binding is?

 

[grafted branch]

This all depends on what you think the binding is?

I would agree that if a person doesn’t get the binding of Satan correct then a skewed interpretation of Revelation 20:9 follows.

What ever that binding is and what ever the conditions are that happen under that binding, they get reversed when Satan is loosed. If we tie the work Christ did on the cross to the binding of Satan then the work of Christ must be reversed when Satan is loosed.

I think the binding of Satan prevented him from exercising his right to destroy Jerusalem as stated in Daniel 9:26-27. This last act that the Gentiles were to perform was delayed by an unknown period of time, and was referred to as when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[Marty fox]

I would agree that if a person doesn’t get the binding of Satan correct then a skewed interpretation of Revelation 20:9 follows.

What ever that binding is and what ever the conditions are that happen under that binding, they get reversed when Satan is loosed. If we tie the work Christ did on the cross to the binding of Satan then the work of Christ must be reversed when Satan is loosed.

I think the binding of Satan prevented him from exercising his right to destroy Jerusalem as stated in Daniel 9:26-27. This last act that the Gentiles were to perform was delayed by an unknown period of time, and was referred to as when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The work of Jesus doesn’t need to be and can’t be reversed

The Holy sprit works with in us and binds satan from deceiving us. It’s the great chain that holds satan back

I believe that the great chain is the power of the gospel but when the church starts conforming then the true message and the power of the gospel is compromised on a grand scale. I don’t mean individual people but the population and percentage of the true church declines.

This is what led to the fall in Genesis when people stopped talking about God the faithful dwindled down to one man.

 

[ewq1938]

I would agree that if a person doesn’t get the binding of Satan correct then a skewed interpretation of Revelation 20:9 follows.

It gets more skewed when the imprisonment of satan is ignored. He is bound by a chain by an angel and then locked inside of the pit.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe that the great chain is the power of the gospel but when the church starts conforming then the true message and the power of the gospel is compromised.on a grand scale. I don’t mean individual people but the population of the true church declines.

If the chain is the power of the gospel then that power has to be removed in order for Satan to be loosed, right?

What ever chain is binding Satan, it has to be broken, rescinded, allowed to expire, or whatever before he is loosed. I don’t see how the gospel can bind Satan and then Satan be loosed while the gospel remains effectual.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received itnot as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

This is what led to the fall in Genesis when people stopped talking about God the faithful dwindled down to one man.

So unbound Satan benevolently allowed the “calling upon the name of the LORD” to go forth in Genesis 4:26 and then at some point he stopped it and it wound up being only one man, Noah?

Why did Satan allow the pre flood “gospel” to get any further than Adam and Eve in the first place? Are there any verses that explain why unchained Satan allowed this to happen?

 

[grafted branch]

It gets more skewed when the imprisonment of satan is ignored. He is bound by a chain by an angel and then locked inside of the pit.

So what is your interpretation of the chain? Do you see it as some kind of literal chain?

 

[ewq1938]

So what is your interpretation of the chain? Do you see it as some kind of literal chain?

The chain, whatever it is, physically binds satan. It is carried by an angel. It's purpose is like ma straightjacket, to immobilize the person. After that satan is locked in a prison. Many do not even acknowledge that part.

 

[Marty fox]

If the chain is the power of the gospel then that power has to be removed in order for Satan to be loosed, right?

What ever chain is binding Satan, it has to be broken, rescinded, allowed to expire, or whatever before he is loosed. I don’t see how the gospel can bind Satan and then Satan be loosed while the gospel remains effectual.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received itnot as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


So unbound Satan benevolently allowed the “calling upon the name of the LORD” to go forth in Genesis 4:26 and then at some point he stopped it and it wound up being only one man, Noah?

Why did Satan allow the pre flood “gospel” to get any further than Adam and Eve in the first place? Are there any verses that explain why unchained Satan allowed this to happen?

The gospel reveals the Father to the world and it shows who Jesus is. Thus the gospel binds satan from deceiving who ever chooses to accepts it.

The Holy sprit in us holds back satan but when christians conform they weaken the power of the Holy sprit within them

 

[TribulationSigns]

If the chain is the power of the gospel then that power has to be removed in order for Satan to be loosed, right?

Yes. It is the POWER that was given to the Church (Two Witnesses) to preach Truth to the world.

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The power that the church has is what keeps Satan in the bottomless pit AS LONG AS the church is faithful with her great commission and until all Elect God want to seal have been sealed through the testimony of Two Witnesses. The Two Witnesses are NOT two persons, but Christians who received power since they are the Holy People on this side of the Cross.

Rev 7:2-4
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The angel (messenger) from the east is Jesus Christ, having the seal of the living God. he commanded that judgment cannot occur until God has sealed all of His people first. After that, when the testimony of Two Witnesses is finish and Satan comes out of bottomless pit, the power that God gave to the church is "broken":
Dan 12:7
(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So how did the power of the Holy People scattered or broken? It is because after all Elect are sealed, the purpose of Two Witnesses' ministry has been accomplished and the church has become apostasy, no longer loves the truth, or listens to growing numbers of the false prophets and christs that taking over their Church. So, the church, as a star (messenger) FELL and is the one who is responsible for loosened Satan from bottomless pit. God allows this so He will use Satan as a tool of judgment upon His unfaithful church which is a mystery to many as Babylon the Great!

Rev 9:1-2
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This is the Satan/Beast loosening from bottomless pit. His purpose and goal? It is to block the Sun (Christ/church/light), and the air (Holy Spirit) by REASON of the SMOKE of the pit which is the false doctrines of the false prophets and christs.

What ever chain is binding Satan, it has to be broken, rescinded, allowed to expire, or whatever before he is loosed. I don’t see how the gospel can bind Satan and then Satan be loosed while the gospel remains effectual.

No, the POWER of the gospel "FOR" Salvation and sealing of God people will come to an end when God has sealed ALL of His people, the spiritual 144,000. The chosen Elect after all have sealed will have Gospel within their heart and hold fast to it until Christ Return. This is why the wise virgins told the foolish virgins that they do not have enough oil to share anymore but instructed them to go to those sells (false prophets and christs) as their judgment, Matthew 25.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes. It is the POWER that was given to the Church (Two Witnesses) to preach Truth to the world.

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The power that the church has is what keeps Satan in the bottomless pit AS LONG AS the church is faithful with her great commission and until all Elect God want to seal have been sealed through the testimony of Two Witnesses. The Two Witnesses are NOT two persons, but Christians who received power since they are the Holy People on this side of the Cross.

Rev 7:2-4
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The angel (messenger) from the east is Jesus Christ, having the seal of the living God. he commanded that judgment cannot occur until God has sealed all of His people first. After that, when the testimony of Two Witnesses is finish and Satan comes out of bottomless pit, the power that God gave to the church is "broken":
Dan 12:7
(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So how did the power of the Holy People scattered or broken? It is because after all Elect are sealed, the purpose of Two Witnesses' ministry has been accomplished and the church has become apostasy, no longer loves the truth, or listens to growing numbers of the false prophets and christs that taking over their Church. So, the church, as a star (messenger) FELL and is the one who is responsible for loosened Satan from bottomless pit. God allows this so He will use Satan as a tool of judgment upon His unfaithful church which is a mystery to many as Babylon the Great!

Rev 9:1-2
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This is the Satan/Beast loosening from bottomless pit. His purpose and goal? It is to block the Sun (Christ/church/light), and the air (Holy Spirit) by REASON of the SMOKE of the pit which is the false doctrines of the false prophets and christs.



No, the POWER of the gospel "FOR" Salvation and sealing of God people will come to an end when God has sealed ALL of His people, the spiritual 144,000. The chosen Elect after all have sealed will have Gospel within their heart and hold fast to it until Christ Return. This is why the wise virgins told the foolish virgins that they do not have enough oil to share anymore but instructed them to go to those sells (false prophets and christs) as their judgment, Matthew 25.

You definitely show what the power of the gospel is

 

[grafted branch]

So how did the power of the Holy People scattered or broken? It is because after all Elect are sealed, the purpose of Two Witnesses' ministry has been accomplished and the church has become apostasy, no longer loves the truth, or listens to growing numbers of the false prophets and christs that taking over their Church.

There are several things that are just incorrect in your post. We have debated the 144,000 in the past so I’ll just say we definitely differ on that.

Let’s look at the power of the holy people in Daniel 12:7. The power <3027> (or hand) of the holy people gets scattered <5310> (or shattered like a jar broken into pieces).

Daniel 7:25 and they shall be given into his hand <3028> (Aramaic, corresponding to Hebrew yad 3027) until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise <4937> (to break into pieces) Satan under your feet shortly.

Claiming that the power given by God to the church or two witnesses is the power that gets shattered is the exact opposite. It is the power or hand of the Daniel 7 fourth beast that gets broken into pieces.

 

[Marty fox]

There are several things that are just incorrect in your post. We have debated the 144,000 in the past so I’ll just say we definitely differ on that.

Let’s look at the power of the holy people in Daniel 12:7. The power <3027> (or hand) of the holy people gets scattered <5310> (or shattered like a jar broken into pieces).

Daniel 7:25 and they shall be given into his hand <3028> (Aramaic, corresponding to Hebrew yad 3027) until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise <4937> (to break into pieces) Satan under your feet shortly.

Claiming that the power given by God to the church or two witnesses is the power that gets shattered is the exact opposite. It is the power or hand of the Daniel 7 fourth beast that gets broken into pieces.

Then what is the binding?

Why would God bind him for 1000 years just because let him loose again?

What would the purpose of that be especially when most of the world turns against God at the end?

 

[grafted branch]

Then what is the binding?

Why would God bind him for 1000 years just because let him loose again?

What would the purpose of that be especially when most of the world turns against God at the end?

Satan was bound from executing his right to destroy Jerusalem just after the cross as described in Daniel 9:26-27. This allowed the gospel to get preached in all the world prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. Babylon fell and became the cage of every foul spirit, this is where Satan was for the millennium while the gospel was preached.

When Satan was loosed after the millennium he fulfilled the Daniel 9:26-27 destruction of Jerusalem which was the last act prophesied for the Gentiles. This is when the fullness or fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles happened.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There are several things that are just incorrect in your post. We have debated the 144,000 in the past so I’ll just say we definitely differ on that.

The 144,000 is exactly who they are as defined by God.

"Israel" in whom anyone (Jew and Gentile together) who will be Saved, must be Saved, IN CHRIST.

Isaiah 45:17

• "But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

A literal nation will NOT be saved with an everlasting Salvation, a physical people will NOT be saved with an everlasting Salvation, but a "particular" people will. An election chosen by Grace before the foundation of the world, a remnant will be saved in Christ Israel. It is explicit that there is no everlasting salvation for national Israel (Romans 9:6-9), but there is for the Israel of God. It is in "this" deliverer, CHRIST, that ALL Israel shall be saved! The New Covenant makes a distinction between the literal descendants of Israel and the true Israel of God. A physical descendant Jew, and he who is the true Jew circumcised in heart, rather than in flesh. These are God's distinctions, not man's.

And we must conclude that anyone who makes the claim that all Israel (the nation) will be saved, or that the Israel of God is a physical lineage, or race, or that the Israel of the promise is by heritage or bloodline or 12 physical tribes, is directly contradicting God's Word that all Israel "is not of Israel," and that Israel is defined by God in His own way. The key phrase in that sentence being "by God". He says clearly, that Israel is not defined as a physical nation because they are not all Israel that are of Israel. Not by blood line because they are not all Israel which are Israel. Not by Race because they are not all Israel which are of Israel. In other words, it's not a race of people which is Israel, but a remnant of that nation, and of all nations, who are in Christ. Just as Chapter 7 of Revelation demonstrates, a Jew is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but only in the Spirit of God, as he has a new nativity.

Romans 2:28-29

• "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
  
  
• But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

When all the Jews (as defined by God, not men) are sealed, when all Israel is sealed, then and only then will the messengers who hold the wind be permitted to loose it, as God will pour out the plagues upon the earth as judgments.

Selah.

Let’s look at the power of the holy people in Daniel 12:7. The power <3027> (or hand) of the holy people gets scattered <5310> (or shattered like a jar broken into pieces).

Daniel 7:25 and they shall be given into his hand <3028> (Aramaic, corresponding to Hebrew yad 3027) until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise <4937> (to break into pieces) Satan under your feet shortly.

Claiming that the power given by God to the church or two witnesses is the power that gets shattered is the exact opposite. It is the power or hand of the Daniel 7 fourth beast that gets broken into pieces.

No, you are wrong. You are misapplying the Scripture here. The power of the Holy People has nothing to do with "Daniel 7 fourth beast." I have explained exactly what the power spoke of that the Lord gave to His Holy People, the Two Witnesses. The power is the Holy Spirit that was sent with people to preach the Gospel. This has nothing to do with Daniel 7 fourth beast or its "hand" at all.

As for Romans 16:20, you do not make any sense. Please read the context:

Romans 16:17-20

• "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
• For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
• For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
• And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

In other words, it is for believers they have been under the "Covenant of Grace" from that time of the fall until now. And just as God made the promise of works to man in Genesis, God made a promise of Grace to man in Genesis. By promising a Seed which would defeat that old serpent Satan.

Genesis 3:15

• "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This Covenant or Promise that, of the Woman's seed, there would come a Saviour who would bruise Satan under foot, is a Covenant or Promise of Grace by that Seed, which is Christ. He is the Seed by which the Serpent is bruised under foot, and by whom we obtain Grace. It was at the cross... as it is written:

Romans 16:20

• "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

It happened at the Cross.

 

[grafted branch]

Romans 16:20

• "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

It happened at the Cross.

I don’t think so, look at the Greek on this verse, to crush is future not past.

will soon crush
συντρίψει (syntripsei)
Verb - Future Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 4937: From sun and the base of tribos; to crush completely, i.e. To shatter.