Amigo's Question and Answer Thread

[Johann]

SHOULD CHRISTIANS JUDGE ONE ANOTHER?

A. In 1 Corinthians 5:12 Paul and the church must deal with members (v. 12 expects a "yes" answer), but believers must allow God to deal with non-members. Believers must not judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5,15-20; Rom. 14:1-15:13), but

1. we must examine each other's fruits for leadership positions (cf. 1 Cor. 6:1-3; Matthew 7)

2. we must exercise church discipline when the reputation of the church is at risk

This is often a fine line! By implication Paul is asserting that the sinning man of 1 Corinthians 5 must be placed in the realm of God's judgment (i.e., outside the church).

One wonders how this context relates to modern societies where believers and non-believers have an opportunity by voting to regulate social norms. Should believers vigorously participate in the political process? This context is limited to judgment relating to church discipline and not western, modern democracy. Believers are citizens of two realms with obligations and privileges in both! God's Spirit, God's will, and God's Book help us as believers find our way in this fallen world, but unbelievers are exploited and manipulated by sin, self, and Satan. They need our witness and compassion, not our judgmental self-righteousness. They are not capable of understanding our motives, purposes, and actions.

The problem of when and how Christians should "judge" each other caused several Greek manuscripts to alter this text.

1. The very early papyrus manuscript P46 (about a.d. 200) as well as the Bahairic Coptic translation (3rd century) and Peshitta Syriac translation (5th century) just omit the negative and translate the sentence as an imperative, "Judge ye those who are inside [the church]" (cf. Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 551).

2. The Sahidic Coptic translation (3rd century) puts the negative with the preceding sentence, "For what have I to do with judging those who are outside and not those who are inside? Judge those who are inside" (Metzger, p. 51).

3. The UBS4 text does not even acknowledge the possibility of these variants as original.

B. This issue must be dealt with in two ways.

1. believers are admonished not to judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37,42; Rom. 2:1-11; James 4:11-12)

2. believers are admonished to evaluate leaders (cf. Matt. 7:6,15-16; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; and 1 John 4:1-6)

Some criteria for proper evaluation may be helpful.

1. evaluation should be for the purpose of affirmation (cf. 1 John 4:1 – "test" with a view toward approval)

2. evaluation should be done in humility and gentleness (cf. Gal. 6:1)

3. evaluation must not focus on personal preference issues (cf. Rom. 14:1-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33)

4. evaluation should identify those leaders who have "no handle for criticism" from within the church or the community (cf. 1 Timothy 3).
Utley.

Shalom.

 

[amigo de christo]

There are times when you seem to be edging towards a downward slope. Just my observation and personally-I don't think we are qualified to judge correctly-with discernment since we ourselves are still prone to sin and we ourselves don't know what is in the heart of others.

this a listen.


Scriptures on Judgment in the Church and Greek Meanings
1 Corinthians 5:12-13

Verses: "For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves the evil person.'" (NKJV)
Greek Meaning:
Judge (κρίνω, krino): To separate, decide, or judge; to discern or pass judgment.
1 Corinthians 6:1-5

Verses: "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" (NKJV)
Greek Meaning:
Judge (κρίνω, krino): To separate, decide, or judge; to discern or pass judgment.
Addressing Sin and Correction


Personal Offenses: As you correctly follow, when someone sins against you, the Bible advises that you address it directly with them, in private, as taught in Matthew 18:15. This is to seek reconciliation and their repentance, ensuring that personal issues are handled with integrity and without gossip.

Public or Unrepentant Sin: When sin is not personally against you but is evident within the church community, the New Testament provides guidance on handling such situations. Paul's letters, particularly to Titus and Jude, emphasize different approaches based on the nature of the sin and the context:

Titus 1:13; 2:15: "This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" (NKJV). Paul instructs Titus to rebuke false teachers and those in error sharply to maintain the purity of the doctrine.

1 Timothy 5:20: "Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear" (NKJV). This public rebuke serves as a deterrent to others and underscores the seriousness of the sin.

Jude 1:23: "But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh" (NKJV). Jude advocates a more urgent and cautious approach, reflecting the need to address serious issues with both compassion and firmness.

The question is-Do you deem yourself qualified as such?

Can you give me examples of my heading into a downward slope .
Be specific. what it is i am doing exactly .
For example if i were to see someone in error , i can easily tell them what the error is , not generalize
but actually tell them .
SO to help me you need to give examples of this downward slope you speak about .
Lets examine this my friend .

 

[Marvelloustime]

I think I might go out and commit murder every night. Whilst I am at it I may rob a few banks. Is it the right thing to do to tell me its wrong and you should not do that, or is it, oh no don’t judge.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

**7. 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13
Direct Petition to Jesus: "Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints."
Explanation: Paul directly petitions both the Father and Jesus in this prayer, asking Jesus to direct his way and to establish the hearts of the Thessalonians.

This is not a prayer, but a comment that God would lead them and guide them.

**10. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
Sanctification by Jesus: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Explanation: Paul prays for the sanctification and preservation of believers, linking the outcome directly to the coming of Jesus Christ, implying that such preservation is within Jesus’ purview and authority.

Sti8ll not a prayer, plea, petition or interceding for someone.

**2. 1 Corinthians 1:2
Calling on the Name of Jesus: "...to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours."
Explanation: Here, Paul mentions that all Christians "call on the name of Jesus Christ." The Greek word for "call" (ἐπικαλέω, epikaleō) can mean to invoke or appeal to someone, which includes making requests or prayers.

It can mean, but it doesn't. It means to invoke His name in authority.

**6. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
Prayer for Comfort and Strength: "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work."
Explanation: In this prayer, Paul appeals to both Jesus Christ and God the Father, asking for comfort and strength. This demonstrates that Paul sees Jesus as an appropriate recipient of prayer alongside the Fathe

Paul is not praying, but making a comment that Godu would do something for the readers of his letter. He is not asking God anything here.

None of your examples override what jesus Himself said is how we should pray:

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 6:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus was very specific in how and to whom we are to present our pleas, petitions, requests, pleas and intercessions.

Once again we worship, praqise, glorify and exalt Jesus but we do not make our requests to HIm as he instructed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree. But apparently, I'm not making myself clear.
I wasn't speaking about the New Jerusalem.
I was speaking about how Jesus wanted to make life better on earth, right now, right here, and how He intended for us Christians to
create that change by our own behavior and in extending our good to others.

Well we have been warned that in this world we will suffer tribulation and if we live godly lives we shall suffer persecution. It is not to make our lives physically better, but as we are being renewed inwardly, we experience greater love, joy and peace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Israel received her kingdom back in 1948.......but it isn't necessarily all for good because sadly they still reject their true Messiah (except for a remnant). They are still looking for an earthly kingdom ruled by an earthly messiah king which is what caused them to reject Jesus when He came the first time. We must not follow them. Jesus tried to correct their wrong thinking...telling them the truth that His kingdom comes not with careful observation that we can say lo here it is or lo there....but it is within/among us.

No! !948 waas the start of God bringing Israel back to her land in order to judge the nation and purge it of the rebels as was [prophesied in Ez. 20, Jer. 31, Ez. 37&38, and Zech 13. The promised kingdom will be of righteousness and will commence approx. 75 days after Jesus returns.

 

[Johann]

Can you give me examples of my heading into a downward slope .
Be specific. what it is i am doing exactly .
For example if i were to see someone in error , i can easily tell them what the error is , not generalize
but actually tell them .
SO to help me you need to give examples of this downward slope you speak about .
Lets examine this my friend .

I just gave you the Scriptures and a link!
Have you give Voddie a listen?! YES or NO? Or have I wasted my time in sending you the link?
@marks is so right-different levels of maturity among the brethren.
Do you know what a fulcrum is?
The balance between a righteous judgement and condemnation.
See you-

 

[Johann]

It can mean, but it doesn't. It means to invoke His name in authority.

This is my last response to you-
Jesus accepted prayers of praise and petition
Some might say that prayers of praise to Jesus are legitimate while prayers of petition are not. I will argue that Jesus accepted and still accepts both kinds of prayer. Take note of both in the examples shown below.

New Testament Christians everywhere praying to Jesus
According to the apostle Paul, New Testament Christians were everywhere praying to Jesus. “Paul. . . to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on3 the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:1–2).”4 It appears that Paul includes himself among those who called upon the name of Jesus. These prayers directed to Jesus were universal. And the present tense of “call” suggests that the prayers were on-going.5

Paul petitions Jesus to remove the “thorn in the flesh”
Paul also prayed to Jesus when he “besought the Lord” to remove his thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:8). Why do we believe that the reference to “the Lord” here refers to Jesus instead of the Father? In the Pauline epistles, the term “Lord” (kurios) usually signifies Jesus,6 while “God” usually denotes to the Father. And look at the response of Paul when the Lord said to him, “[My] strength is made perfect in your weakness” (2 Corinthians 12:9). Paul tells us that he would glory in his weakness that the “power of Christ” (the Lord) would be revealed in him. So the referent for “the Lord” is Jesus. Paul prayed to Jesus, and Jesus responded. Notice that these were prayers of petition, not praise. These were not spontaneous petitions or petitions given in response to the voice of the Lord or a vision, but a prayer prayed three times, as Paul persisted in his request to Jesus. If it were inappropriate for someone to offer supplication to Jesus, Paul would not have asked Jesus three times to answer a specific request. Jesus did not rebuke Paul for praying the prayer, but He did inform Paul that he was better off without the request being granted.

Other prayers of Paul
In 2 Thessalonians 2:16–17, Paul blessed the Thessalonians with these words: “May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father. . . encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.” Even though this benedictory prayer is in a different form than other prayers, it implies a request to Jesus (and the Father), and this suggests the legitimacy of prayer to Jesus.7 Paul expected Jesus to answer this request. A similar benedictory prayer (invoking the name of Jesus) is found in 1 Thessalonians 3:11–14.

The worship of Jesus
In the Gospels, Jesus was worshipped, and He accepted it (John 9:38). Surely this involved verbal communication to Jesus or prayer. The Gospels are not the only place where worship of Jesus occurs. The angels are told to worship Jesus.8 There is worship of Jesus (the Lamb) in Revelation by both angels and humans (Revelation 5:8–13).

Since all three members of the Trinity are God, then worship is due to each of them, collectively and individually, because of the nature of the Trinity. Worship involves praise and adoration. It would be wrong to discourage people from addressing each member of the Trinity in praise and adoration. God expects us to worship Jesus. The Jehovah’s Witnesses will not pray to Jesus because they think that He is not worthy of worship. We pray to Jesus because we know He is worthy of worship, and that He even demands worship. Jesus commanded us to honor the Son just as we honor the Father (John 5:23). If we fail to give praise to the Son in our prayers, as we give praise the Father, would we really be honoring the Son as we do the Father?

The early church recognized the importance of worshipping Jesus through prayer. In fact, when Athanasius made his case against Arianism in the early 300’s, he pointed out that Christians had prayed to Jesus from the beginning. Athanasius argued that if Jesus was not of the same substance as the Father (homoousios) and was instead only a creature—only of like substance with the Father (homoiousios), then Christians from the beginning would have been committing idolatry by praying to Jesus.9

Petitions to Jesus in the Gospels
In the Gospels, many people asked Jesus for miracles. In a survey of the New Testament, I counted at least seven distinct times when people cried out to Jesus for mercy, treating him as a divine person, and they expected an answer. Should not these requests be considered prayers? Surely, Christ’s departure into Heaven does not mean that his followers can no longer bring petitions to Him.

Other examples of prayers to Jesus
There are other examples of appropriate prayers to Jesus in the New Testament.10 Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit” (Acts 7:59). At Paul’s conversion, he prayed to Jesus: “Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (Acts 9:6). Ananias conversed with Jesus when Jesus spoke to him in a vision (Acts 9:10–14). And the very last prayer in the New Testament is addressed to Jesus by the Apostle John: “Even so come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20). If it were wrong to petition Christ, John the inspired writer may have said, “Father, may the Son come.” But instead he gave us these words to also cry out to Jesus: “Even so, come!”

The last verse referred to may allude to the phrase, “Maranatha” (found in 1 Corinthians 16:22), which is usually translated as the petition, “Come, O Lord.” “Maranatha” is an Aramaic expression that originated before Christians had filtered throughout the Gentile community. It seems that very early on, the Christians were crying out to Jesus, “Come, O Lord!”11 This was a prayer of petition.

Jesus claimed that He will answer our petitions
A verse in John 14 strongly encourages prayers of petition to Jesus. Jesus said, “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.”12 Jesus here says that he would answer prayer when we asked him anything in his name. So Jesus authorizes us to address him in prayer when we come in his name—in his own authority, and in his will. And he promised that he would answer.

Prayers in the name of Jesus
Prayers to Jesus are permitted and encouraged by Christ’s teaching in John 14:14, and by any passage in which Jesus says that we are to pray in His name. When Jesus told us to pray in His name, He wasn’t asking us to use a particular phrase at the end of each of our prayers, though the expression “in Jesus’ name, Amen” is certainly appropriate, and God-honored. Jesus was actually asking us to come to God (therefore any member of the Trinity) in His authority. We have the right to come to God and receive grace and help because of who Christ is, what He did for us, and what He promised. He has given us “great and exceeding promises” (2 Peter 1:1–4) and when we come to God with our requests, we have been authorized to come in faith, believing that He will fulfill what He has promised.

Can We Pray to Jesus?

It is appropriate to pray to the Father directly; however, just because we are permitted to pray to the Father, doesn’t mean that we are not permitted to pray to the Son.

answersingenesis.org

 

[GodsGrace]

Well we have been warned that in this world we will suffer tribulation and if we live godly lives we shall suffer persecution. It is not to make our lives physically better, but as we are being renewed inwardly, we experience greater love, joy and peace.

OK

 

[Johann]

I think I might go out and commit murder every night. Whilst I am at it I may rob a few banks. Is it the right thing to do to tell me its wrong and you should not do that, or is it, oh no don’t judge.

Thing is-you don't need someone to tell you it's wrong, you KNOW it's wrong.

 

[Lizbeth]

This might help to clear it up . Israel did not recieve her kingdom back in nineteen forty eight .
What isreal did was return to the land .
but that kingdom is still not the KINGDOM of GOD of HEAVEN .
oh i know what you meant sister .
But the truth is , while the jews might now be back in the LAND , the LAND
that kingdom is still under the darkness and sway of satan . And i know you know that .
SO the better way of saying it is , the jews are coming back into the land . BUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
many have not yet COME TOO . Earthly jersualem is every bit in bondage
as it was in pauls days . That kingdom is still in bondage , but the heavenly KINGDOM we must preach to them and to the gentiles
WE must continue to do so . cause that kingdom we see right now . IT TOO gonna be destroyed as will all on the DAY of
the LORD .
But i do know what you are trying to say sister and to imply . I just thought it better to explain it a bit more .
THE JEWS are coming back to the LAND . but not all the jews are JEWS
and the KINGDOM they have established and built , STILL IS NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD .
That one is still heavenly . actually we are about to witness a total deceptoin once again COME OUT of earthly jerusalem
who is under the influence of the dark one and the RCC and etc . THIS KINGDOM they build
is of darkness sister . NOT all of israel IS STILL NOT OF ISRAEL either .
You might want to duck out of this conversation cause i am sure a lot of folks that read this
are about to hurl some serious stones at me . MEN aer too in love WITH THE EARTHLY and NOT THE HEAVENLY .

Amen, I understand all that and agree brother. I wasn't talking about the kingdom of God, but Israel has received her earthly kingdom back in these last days. No longer under Roman or other foreign rule and exiled out of the land but restored to the land and their own sovereignty. I think that is what the disciples had in mind when they asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored to Israel....Israel had lost her sovereignty and was under Roman rule at the time and I believe the disciples did not yet understand the difference between Israel's earthly kingdom and the kingdom of God in OT scripture, and the various prophecies about these things....the Holy Spirit had not yet been given at that time so they lacked some illumination on this.

We are looking for a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one...because the kingdom of God is heavenly, but I believe some of the prophecies did foretell that Israel would be restored to the land. (And that is a "for better or worse" kind of thing, because things pertaining to this earth are a mixture of both good and evil. We must not assume this is all for good or a sign of God's explicit approval, etc, because they do still reject the Messiah/Christ.) Only one way for the people of Israel to receive the kingdom of God and that is through faith in His Son.

 

[amigo de christo]

Thing is-you don't need someone to tell you it's wrong, you KNOW it's wrong.

Even to hear the reminders is good .
Like paul often warned the church to not sin , and listed some sins .
The best thing for the church is to behold both the goodness and severity of God .
Its good to reminded of all things . Both the promises and warnings .
Be encouraged my friend.
When i wrote , yesterday , i was asking you to specifically tell me
what i was in error on my friend .
Its not to justify myself or to prove you wrong . It is just if one is in error , then specifically
point out the error and give examples of the wrong behavoir .
This is the fastest way to clear up any wrongful assumptions one might have , OR
it will also correct the one in error .
If i knew one was in error , say for example stealing , i would come and say you should not be stealing .
If one is heading down a wrong road , i would show them , explain to them HOW it was they were heading down a wrong road .
Not just say oh you seem to be heading down a wrong road . I would show them the error itself .
The sooner we do this , i bet things can be cleared up .
When we examine in serveral letters of paul i also want us to
see what he wrote to the church concerning leaders . even their wives too .
IF we take not the words grave appear quite often in those reminders . I think its in at least three letters.
This is what i am not seeing at all in MOST , not all , leaders .
No sincerity , no gravity just speeches about trying to get along and not judging and etc.
But as you well know, look at how them churches are turningout . leaving is going viral .
Also if we examine the letter to the corithians , the second one as well
we see that paul , like anyone , would rather when they come to have fellowship , not have to rebuke sharply and use the rod ,
HOWEVER we see he warned them he would . THey were far more serious about false doctrine and errors within that church
than by far todays leaders are . And this is why leaven has gained such a strong hold in a lot of churches.
In no way is this to accuse you or anyone . So first step is that we stop seeing
the others warnings , reminders and words as though its a personal attack against us . Rather let us
read them , and see what it is getting wrote . THEN if we see error we correct error .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen, I understand all that and agree brother. I wasn't talking about the kingdom of God, but Israel has received her earthly kingdom back in these last days. No longer under Roman or other foreign rule and exiled out of the land but restored to the land and their own sovereignty. I think that is what the disciples had in mind when they asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored to Israel....Israel had lost her sovereignty and was under Roman rule at the time and I believe the disciples did not yet understand the difference between Israel's earthly kingdom and the kingdom of God in OT scripture, and the various prophecies about these things....the Holy Spirit had not yet been given at that time so they lacked some illumination on this.

We are looking for a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one...because the kingdom of God is heavenly, but I believe some of the prophecies did foretell that Israel would be restored to the land. (And that is a "for better or worse" kind of thing, because things pertaining to this earth are a mixture of both good and evil. We must not assume this is all for good or a sign of God's explicit approval, etc, because they do still reject the Messiah/Christ.) Only one way for the people of Israel to receive the kingdom of God and that is through faith in His Son.

Oh i knew you did dear sister .
Israel . concering israel there will be a restoration all right .
Lord will you at this time RESTORE the kingdom back to Israel
and HE said its not for you to KNOW the times nor the seaons the Father has placed in HIS own hand .
Also Earthly jersualem had to become the center piece of the world again . I mean
look at what was going on in revelations and later . IT mentions Jerusalem . though it call her the harlot .
It speaks of two witnesses being slain in her streets .
They first call down plagues and etc upon the world and etc .
If we examine what is going on within christendom and the false religoins
we would see a false and deadly merger to unite them as one .
WE would also see THEY plan to center this thing IN JERSUALEM in order to bring about
what THEY BELIEVE will usher in world peace n safety .
About the only peace its working
is the peace behind this one . AND THROUGH PEACE shall HE DESTROY many . that be anti christ peace .
man has always sought a wordly kingdom , and not rather the heavenly . Well a price will soon be paid .
IF we also take note it would be easy to see WHO led this whole move within the religoins .
THE VATICAN RCC and it has always desired the power and influence even over JERSUALEM .
many leaders have long been in bed with this one .
But the only thing they so called world peace and safety and lets find common ground
ideals is gonna bring upon them is .............not the utopia they desired , not the peace n safety they had
long sought for and through wicked means of men , did all to attain this peace n safety .
ITS BRINGING DOWN the all mighty wrath of GOD and of the lamb IN SUDDEN destruction
upon this united we aer one world that had trod the only ONE who could save RIGHT under foot
in order to attain what they thought would give them peace n safety . THEY have no idea sister .
The very love they have preached , the very lets find common ground they have preached and longed for
That has trod JESUS under foot , that has even turned him into some kind of minstir of sin
and a supporter of false religoins , WILL NOT SAVE THEM ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen, I understand all that and agree brother. I wasn't talking about the kingdom of God, but Israel has received her earthly kingdom back in these last days. No longer under Roman or other foreign rule and exiled out of the land but restored to the land and their own sovereignty. I think that is what the disciples had in mind when they asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored to Israel....Israel had lost her sovereignty and was under Roman rule at the time and I believe the disciples did not yet understand the difference between Israel's earthly kingdom and the kingdom of God in OT scripture, and the various prophecies about these things....the Holy Spirit had not yet been given at that time so they lacked some illumination on this.

We are looking for a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one...because the kingdom of God is heavenly, but I believe some of the prophecies did foretell that Israel would be restored to the land. (And that is a "for better or worse" kind of thing, because things pertaining to this earth are a mixture of both good and evil. We must not assume this is all for good or a sign of God's explicit approval, etc, because they do still reject the Messiah/Christ.) Only one way for the people of Israel to receive the kingdom of God and that is through faith in His Son.

What did paul warn about .
A strong delusion to beleive a lie .
Given unto those who rejected the love of the truth whereby they could have been saved .
I SEE a lie right now
this lie is no longer dividing out the false religions or the false ones within christendom .
ITS UNITING THEM .
And i saw the armies of the world , of the beast and etc , they were gathered around
WHO . and who had they come against . JESUS THE CHRIST and THE saints .
THERE IS a lie right now that is MERGING THEM to be as one
and the longer it sells its lie under the guise of love , THE MORE hateful they become against
biblical true christains , the truth in the bible and etc .
THERE is a delusion going on all right . and to those going under it
and to those who do preach it , THEY SEEM TO THINK its the will of GOD that we merge as one
finding common ground with darkness . And the longer this has went on ,
ITS getting real tough to walk into a church with a bible and read CERTAIN scrips .
THEY will RUN YOU OFF as they say GOD is love and act as though SOME of his own words in that bible are hate speech .
THIS is not looking good at all sister . AND THEY think they LOVE and we hate , they believe
they serve GOD and we do not sister . ON this path IT WILL get worse .

 

[amigo de christo]

OK

Lets examine some things my dear friend .
Times will only get worse in this unrepentant world .
I want us to examine how TRUTH gets treated in some of these churches .
IS GOD , HIS CHRIST being honored and put first
or rather has a tone that pleases humanity being sung .
Go to and behold the strange diverse inclusive common ground churches .
You will enter in the door .
Everyone is pretty much quite nice to you . okay , NO PROBLEM with that at all .
But keep going .
You notice unrepentant sinners . and believe me if two gay married men are sitting in said church
We gots to know they unrepentant .
The songs of praise begin . everyone is praising GOD and all seems so good and fine .
Then the sermon begins . Typically long speeches about love and not judging and trying to get along and doing some good works .
BUT , you wont hear a lot of other things at all , SPECIALLY things that expose sins and specially CERTAIN SINS .
so it ends and everyone is kind . You see the two gay men talking and hugging everyone
and you learn they have been with the church for quite some time and do claim to beleive in GOD .
so you wonder , if any brother or sister be in a sin , How come no one has even bothered to correct
these beleivers . and why on earth are they always so happy in this church .
So you come back next week . repeat the same thing .
The weeks later , REPEAT the same thing .
SO then one day you decide , hey i am going to actually try and talk to some people and the elders
about this . I mean if we love brethren we would correct them and keep the pattern the apostels left for the church .
SO you go to the elders . You say , do those two gay men cliam to believe IN JESUS .
they say they sure do , they are some of our finest helpers in the church too .
YOU then say , WELL how come you all are allowing them to remain in SIN .
You say here let me read some new testament scrips to you .
IT WONT BE LONG BEFORE YOU SHOWED THE DOOR with quite a few angry looks and accusations
against YOU and that bible doctrine . as they chant GOD is love , DONT JUDGE .
but they sure JUDGED YOU a monster and a hater cause you brought in a bible to expose error .
DO you really think this judge not , just hug etc WORKED . DID IT bring them CLOSER TO GOD
OR MORE HATEFUL against GOD . exactly . the love of the world and the love of GOD , THE TWO DONT MIX at all .
NOR can we claim and do both . THe love of the world , IS the lusts of the flesh , that means SINS
that means evil works and etc . Cant do both . FOR ye will hate the GOD of TRUTH and cling to the wordly .

 

[GodsGrace]

Lets examine some things my dear friend .
Times will only get worse in this unrepentant world .
I want us to examine how TRUTH gets treated in some of these churches .
IS GOD , HIS CHRIST being honored and put first
or rather has a tone that pleases humanity being sung .
Go to and behold the strange diverse inclusive common ground churches .
You will enter in the door .
Everyone is pretty much quite nice to you . okay , NO PROBLEM with that at all .
But keep going .
You notice unrepentant sinners . and believe me if two gay married men are sitting in said church
We gots to know they unrepentant .
The songs of praise begin . everyone is praising GOD and all seems so good and fine .
Then the sermon begins . Typically long speeches about love and not judging and trying to get along and doing some good works .
BUT , you wont hear a lot of other things at all , SPECIALLY things that expose sins and specially CERTAIN SINS .
so it ends and everyone is kind . You see the two gay men talking and hugging everyone
and you learn they have been with the church for quite some time and do claim to beleive in GOD .
so you wonder , if any brother or sister be in a sin , How come no one has even bothered to correct
these beleivers . and why on earth are they always so happy in this church .
So you come back next week . repeat the same thing .
The weeks later , REPEAT the same thing .
SO then one day you decide , hey i am going to actually try and talk to some people and the elders
about this . I mean if we love brethren we would correct them and keep the pattern the apostels left for the church .
SO you go to the elders . You say , do those two gay men cliam to believe IN JESUS .
they say they sure do , they are some of our finest helpers in the church too .
YOU then say , WELL how come you all are allowing them to remain in SIN .
You say here let me read some new testament scrips to you .
IT WONT BE LONG BEFORE YOU SHOWED THE DOOR with quite a few angry looks and accusations
against YOU and that bible doctrine . as they chant GOD is love , DONT JUDGE .
but they sure JUDGED YOU a monster and a hater cause you brought in a bible to expose error .
DO you really think this judge not , just hug etc WORKED . DID IT bring them CLOSER TO GOD
OR MORE HATEFUL against GOD . exactly . the love of the world and the love of GOD , THE TWO DONT MIX at all .
NOR can we claim and do both . THe love of the world , IS the lusts of the flesh , that means SINS
that means evil works and etc . Cant do both . FOR ye will hate the GOD of TRUTH and cling to the wordly .

Amigo,
I gave a simple OK to the other member because I realized that he was just not getting my point.
As to the above, yes, as you know I basically agree with all you've stated so far.
I know you don't care for the CC, but, really, the CC was insistent on all you state above and holding fast to biblical priniciples -
UNTIL - this Pope came along and is watering down Christianity just like every other church. He may have changed things forever; we'll not know until the new one comes along.
It's unfortunate you hate that church so much....
Much of what it teaches is correct.
(I'm not Catholic but am attending a Catholic church right now,
and I won't be coming out of her either, for various reasons).

 

[Marvelloustime]

Lets examine some things my dear friend .
Times will only get worse in this unrepentant world .
I want us to examine how TRUTH gets treated in some of these churches .
IS GOD , HIS CHRIST being honored and put first
or rather has a tone that pleases humanity being sung .
Go to and behold the strange diverse inclusive common ground churches .
You will enter in the door .
Everyone is pretty much quite nice to you . okay , NO PROBLEM with that at all .
But keep going .
You notice unrepentant sinners . and believe me if two gay married men are sitting in said church
We gots to know they unrepentant .
The songs of praise begin . everyone is praising GOD and all seems so good and fine .
Then the sermon begins . Typically long speeches about love and not judging and trying to get along and doing some good works .
BUT , you wont hear a lot of other things at all , SPECIALLY things that expose sins and specially CERTAIN SINS .
so it ends and everyone is kind . You see the two gay men talking and hugging everyone
and you learn they have been with the church for quite some time and do claim to beleive in GOD .
so you wonder , if any brother or sister be in a sin , How come no one has even bothered to correct
these beleivers . and why on earth are they always so happy in this church .
So you come back next week . repeat the same thing .
The weeks later , REPEAT the same thing .
SO then one day you decide , hey i am going to actually try and talk to some people and the elders
about this . I mean if we love brethren we would correct them and keep the pattern the apostels left for the church .
SO you go to the elders . You say , do those two gay men cliam to believe IN JESUS .
they say they sure do , they are some of our finest helpers in the church too .
YOU then say , WELL how come you all are allowing them to remain in SIN .
You say here let me read some new testament scrips to you .
IT WONT BE LONG BEFORE YOU SHOWED THE DOOR with quite a few angry looks and accusations
against YOU and that bible doctrine . as they chant GOD is love , DONT JUDGE .
but they sure JUDGED YOU a monster and a hater cause you brought in a bible to expose error .
DO you really think this judge not , just hug etc WORKED . DID IT bring them CLOSER TO GOD
OR MORE HATEFUL against GOD . exactly . the love of the world and the love of GOD , THE TWO DONT MIX at all .
NOR can we claim and do both . THe love of the world , IS the lusts of the flesh , that means SINS
that means evil works and etc . Cant do both . FOR ye will hate the GOD of TRUTH and cling to the wordly .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amigo,
I gave a simple OK to the other member because I realized that he was just not getting my point.
As to the above, yes, as you know I basically agree with all you've stated so far.
I know you don't care for the CC, but, really, the CC was insistent on all you state above and holding fast to biblical priniciples -
UNTIL - this Pope came along and is watering down Christianity just like every other church. He may have changed things forever; we'll not know until the new one comes along.
It's unfortunate you hate that church so much....
Much of what it teaches is correct.
(I'm not Catholic but am attending a Catholic church right now,
and I won't be coming out of her either, for various reasons).

oh i knew why you gave the Ok .
Hate . i done wept and sorrowed for folks more than most do themselves . hate you say .
NO SIR . ITS LOVE . Its true and its pure . That place is dangerous and has been since as far
back as history records . aka its own books . When i told johann i do research .
My dear friend i truly do and did my research .
And i read their own stuff . i did this with the RCC , with the mormon , the jw and others .
I read THEY OWN STUFF for my own self . and ran and never looked back.
Yet i aint ever ran FROM just the holy bible . Aint that something .
If i even tell us What GOD did for me and how HE put me into that book
for hours daily , I GET Told YOU BOASTING IN YOU
it dont seem to matter what i say to this generation , whether i am grave
or etc , the one thing they have in common is , THEY DONT want this message i bring .
Now i aint saying you , or even johann do this . ITS a general statement .
Now i do have to admit i do often give general statements
And due to this often the person themselves sees it as an attack on them .
I have to make more of an effort to remind them its just a general reminder about most all folks
but not about the person i am talking too .
Because due to we are on the internet and not you or anyone else i type to
can really HEAR my voice or heart , its easy to assume hate is involved . NO SIR .
No and sir . I LOVE . most today think they love but its the sensual love , NOT THE TRUE AGAPE Love
that does all for the sake of the people , EVEN if i be only hated more so by those i do love .
I dont hate . I dont discrimnate . Now its true I HATE FALSE DOCTRINE . OH
that i have zero love for at all my friend .
And if i see a wolf , that wolf will be identfied on my watch .
But i do not have the time to list all those names . All i can say is
This generation is in dire trouble and we got us wolves ALL OVER IT . and if you think
just cause one slips or errs means i call them a wolf . YOU would be very wrong .
WHEN I SAY WOLF , WHEN I SAY FALSE . ITS CAUSE IT IS . and i mean A FULLY DEVELOPED adult WOLF .
AND sadly our leaders who lead this people within christendom , MANY WOLVES THEY BE .

 

[GodsGrace]

oh i knew why you gave the Ok .
Hate . i done wept and sorrowed for folks more than most do themselves . hate you say .
NO SIR . ITS LOVE . Its true and its pure . That place is dangerous and has been since as far
back as history records . aka its own books . When i told johann i do research .
My dear friend i truly do and did my research .
And i read their own stuff . i did this with the RCC , with the mormon , the jw and others .
I read THEY OWN STUFF for my own self . and ran and never looked back.
Yet i aint ever ran FROM just the holy bible . Aint that something .
If i even tell us What GOD did for me and how HE put me into that book
for hours daily , I GET Told YOU BOASTING IN YOU
it dont seem to matter what i say to this generation , whether i am grave
or etc , the one thing they have in common is , THEY DONT want this message i bring .
Now i aint saying you , or even johann do this . ITS a general statement .
Now i do have to admit i do often give general statements
And due to this often the person themselves sees it as an attack on them .
I have to make more of an effort to remind them its just a general reminder about most all folks
but not about the person i am talking too .
Because due to we are on the internet and not you or anyone else i type to
can really HEAR my voice or heart , its easy to assume hate is involved . NO SIR .
No and sir . I LOVE . most today think they love but its the sensual love , NOT THE TRUE AGAPE Love
that does all for the sake of the people , EVEN if i be only hated more so by those i do love .
I dont hate . I dont discrimnate . Now its true I HATE FALSE DOCTRINE . OH
that i have zero love for at all my friend .
And if i see a wolf , that wolf will be identfied on my watch .
But i do not have the time to list all those names . All i can say is
This generation is in dire trouble and we got us wolves ALL OVER IT . and if you think
just cause one slips or errs means i call them a wolf . YOU would be very wrong .
WHEN I SAY WOLF , WHEN I SAY FALSE . ITS CAUSE IT IS . and i mean A FULLY DEVELOPED adult WOLF .
AND sadly our leaders who lead this people within christendom , MANY WOLVES THEY BE .

I don't think you hate the people...
I think you hate catholicism.
I dislike Calvinism.
I don't hate it or its adherents.
I think it's just a misguided system that has gotten some scripture wrong and are learning from a man (men) that did not properly interpret the bible the way it was meant to be interpreted.

Other than that, I'd say that all our churches are watering down Christianity....
maybe to get the pews filled, I don't know.

I just know that it's wrong and the young people (those who are searching) are searching for a church that does NOT represent the world but give them GOD in a solid and absolute way.

 

[Lizbeth]

Even to hear the reminders is good .
Like paul often warned the church to not sin , and listed some sins .
The best thing for the church is to behold both the goodness and severity of God .
Its good to reminded of all things . Both the promises and warnings .
Be encouraged my friend.
When i wrote , yesterday , i was asking you to specifically tell me
what i was in error on my friend .
Its not to justify myself or to prove you wrong . It is just if one is in error , then specifically
point out the error and give examples of the wrong behavoir .
This is the fastest way to clear up any wrongful assumptions one might have , OR
it will also correct the one in error .
If i knew one was in error , say for example stealing , i would come and say you should not be stealing .
If one is heading down a wrong road , i would show them , explain to them HOW it was they were heading down a wrong road .
Not just say oh you seem to be heading down a wrong road . I would show them the error itself .
The sooner we do this , i bet things can be cleared up .
When we examine in serveral letters of paul i also want us to
see what he wrote to the church concerning leaders . even their wives too .
IF we take not the words grave appear quite often in those reminders . I think its in at least three letters.
This is what i am not seeing at all in MOST , not all , leaders .
No sincerity , no gravity just speeches about trying to get along and not judging and etc.
But as you well know, look at how them churches are turningout . leaving is going viral .
Also if we examine the letter to the corithians , the second one as well
we see that paul , like anyone , would rather when they come to have fellowship , not have to rebuke sharply and use the rod ,
HOWEVER we see he warned them he would . THey were far more serious about false doctrine and errors within that church
than by far todays leaders are . And this is why leaven has gained such a strong hold in a lot of churches.
In no way is this to accuse you or anyone . So first step is that we stop seeing
the others warnings , reminders and words as though its a personal attack against us . Rather let us
read them , and see what it is getting wrote . THEN if we see error we correct error .

Washing of the water of the word. We don't take a bath just once in our life and then never bathe again....no, we bathe/wash regularly. We don't just read the bible cover to cover once and then never pick it up again - no, we are in the word reading and meditating on it regularly. The body is to edify itself in love....exhorting, reminding, instructing, correcting, speaking the word.

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Different members of the body of Christ may have different emphasis depending on their individual calling/mission and also on the need of the church at any particular time/season. The western church today in general does not resemble the church of the bible and is being drawn into a dangerous spiritual deception in our day. Many need to be woken up and made aware of this danger (as well as reminding because the devil never stops trying to deceive....this is a spiritual war, not just a war on the level of accumulated head knowledge).

But also we need to keep moving forward with the Lord, reaching for what lies ahead, growing and learning generally, and not to turn back and stand still to stare at Sodom burning. There are many threads and discussions with many people speaking on a forum, if one thing isn't particularly feeding and edifying us on what we need at any particular time, we can simply bypass it and go to something that we do need and find edifying.

Jer 51:50

Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind.

We are confounded, because we have heard reproach: shame hath covered our faces: for strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the LORD'S house.(God's judgment on an erring and apostate "nation" called the church.)

This agrees with where Lot was instructed by the Lord to flee to the "mountains" (mountain and high place of the Lord) and not to look back or stop and settle down anywhere else in that valley lower down. And now we are living in days like those of ancient Israel, and also of Lot, so it makes sense to learn the lessons of Lot. We often speak of the days of Noah with reference to the last days, but forget about the days of Lot:

Luk 17:28-29

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.