All the ELECT please stand up
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Agreed, it is a very sad and hopeless doctrine. They, in good conscience anyhow, EVER look a lost person in the eye and say truthfully "God loves you". Because they do not know if God does or does NOT love them. Steal, kill and destroy faith much??
Oh Helen, I lived it! I never believed it but...I felt the coldness palpably from the Pastor, his wife and all of the elders. There were very few that were kind to me and, even though they had attended that Church for years, they had no idea at all what the doctrine of their own Church was! The majority shunned me though. I told the Pastor shortly after attending there that I was NOT a proponent of Calvinism. That is when he told me that he WAS...kind of shocked me but, I still stayed as, he never actually taught on it but...after more than 2 years there, I could see it being introduced in sneaky ways and, it was not long after that when I decided to leave but, not without first speaking with the pastor...I would never just creep out the back door without first letting the pastor know why.THANK YOU for the voice of sanity!! I thought I was Alice, and had fallen down the rabbit hole!
Sadly it now shows us clearly that none of them are here to 'show us the right way' in the spirit of The Shepherd . They have no intention in redemption of us poor fools. But just to gloat and point the fingers ....so I will just put them all back on IGNORE where I had them all, until this week. Sad.
We are supposed to all have the same common Enemy and close ranks on evil. Yet they seem to hate everyone except themselves. I had been told that Calvinists were like that....but I had never seen it proved until now.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
When it comes to Calvinism I have ran a crossed a lot of this. Like I said there are what people call cults out there. Calvinism is not a
cult, just a twisted belief system. In my area there were a few Calvinist separatists that home schooled their children and would not
allows to contact anyone one outside their group. Fortunately the authorities caught on to them pretty quick. What they believe,
makes God out to be a monster...so in the defense of God I get pretty stern,,,
cult, just a twisted belief system. In my area there were a few Calvinist separatists that home schooled their children and would not
allows to contact anyone one outside their group. Fortunately the authorities caught on to them pretty quick. What they believe,
makes God out to be a monster...so in the defense of God I get pretty stern,,,
Pie is good! It puts everyone in a good mood! :)
I think I did give my thought in post #793. But let me add to it and see if it helps you understand where my brain goes.
Its like this. We are all born blind. Blind men don't just say, oh, I can see! I chose to see. I just said, enough with this blindness crap, I choose to see! And so now I do!
Well, that would be ridiculous. The only way a man born blind will see is if a surgeon gives him sight through an operation. And even the man they called and grilled, asking, who gave you your sight, answer us! Replied, well, it was a man named Jesus, He gave me my sight. He didn't say, well...it was the strangest thing. I just chose to see and then suddenly I did!
And the disciples asked about a man born blind from birth, why was he born blind? And Jesus said, he was born blind so the glory of God could be shown in him. So do you think it is glorifying God, if he heals your blindness so you can suddenly see that He is, if you tell other blind men, I chose to see and you choose not to?
So this is why I think our blindness must be healed first and then, after that, we do have the freedom to choose to follow or not.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Thank you...I can smell the pie! I think I understand what you are saying. I defend God against Calvinism, but I do not deny the power
of God to manipulate time and events. But the idea that we are puppets is wrong at so many levels that I could go on and on about it.
May God's Grace be with you.
of God to manipulate time and events. But the idea that we are puppets is wrong at so many levels that I could go on and on about it.
May God's Grace be with you.
Well yeah. But I was just only really addressing the freewill part of the debate and how I look at it.
I see both sides not having a complete understanding of freewill. Just in my opinion. The one side takes it clean into a rut that can't even be got out of. They take it to the point of ridiculousness. The other side winds up not glorifying God (not on purpose) but in their answer TO the ridiculousness.
I see both sides not having a complete understanding of freewill. Just in my opinion. The one side takes it clean into a rut that can't even be got out of. They take it to the point of ridiculousness. The other side winds up not glorifying God (not on purpose) but in their answer TO the ridiculousness.
Even blind men can make their own cup of tea.
There goes your total depravity.
Analogies don't often work very well.
It's not easy to reconcile God's sovereignty and man's free will.
But the fact is that God did give us free will....
He gave it to Adam and it was never taken away because it is not
a preternatural gift,,,but a natural gift.
Jesus was made to be like us in every way, and HE had free will also.
"Father, not MY WILL, but yours be done".
Jesus went to the cross of His own free will.
Because we don't understand it does not mean we throw it in the trash can.
God can work around our free will to attain HIS GOAL at the end of the world...or His end game as we say these days.
He has no problem with this EXACTLY BECAUSE HE IS SOVEREIGN.
In fact, Calviinists remove and demote the sovereignty of God by believing man's free will causes God worry or that He cannot handle it or that man could even HAVE the possibility of denying GRACE to a truly SOVEREIGN GOD!
I didn't follow that. :)
Besides, why on earth would one drink tea when perfectly good coffee is available??
I wasn't giving an analogy so much as trying to share the spirit of the words and stories, which is that WE are the man born blind and that we must be given our sight by the grace of God, and THEN we can choose whether to run off like the other healed men did or to return as only the one did.
LOLI didn't follow that. :)
Besides, why on earth would one drink tea when perfectly good coffee is available??
I wasn't giving an analogy so much as trying to share the spirit of the words and stories, which is that WE are the man born blind and that we must be given our sight by the grace of God, and THEN we can choose whether to run off like the other healed men did or to return as only the one did.
I prefer coffee too.
You were apparently referring to regeneration preceding salvation.
Total Depravity is also in there somewhere.
Calvin thought a person could be regenerated as a baby but not become saved till years later.
Do you agree with this?
Woe to you free willers who falsely insert the word "choose" into a scripture passage in which "choose" is not stated because truly either one acts for good in the will of the Father in heaven or one acts for sin in the will of the devil/flesh (Matthew 7:15-27, John 15:1-11, Matthew 15:50, Galatians 5:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21, John 8:44)!
Woe to you free willers because in your heart you wrongfully claim the place of the Potter and disparage the Potter's blessed work (Isaiah 64:8, Romans 9:20-24)!
Woe to you free willers because you are blind to God's Sovereignty in man's salvation leading the blind (Matthew 15:14)!
Woe to you free willers being incapable of discerning Truth in your own free will (John 14:6, Hebrews 5:14, Romans 1:22-24)!
Woe to you free willers because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves (Matthew 23:15)!
Woe to you free willers for choosing a false god (Exodus 20:3-5)!
Woe to you free willers who say "I chose God" for you witness against yourselves (Joshua 24:19-22, Matthew 12:34-37, John 15:16)!
Woe to you free willers because you do not believe the Son of God's "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus rendering yourselves in disobedience to the wrath of God (John 3:36)!
Woe to you free willers who claim to have chosen Jesus in direct opposition to Lord Jesus Christ's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which is applicable to all believers in all time!
Woe to you free willers who do not read the content of the links below which lead to much edifying Word of God quotes and citations that declare the Sovereignty Of God in man's salvation! The blood of free willers is on their own hands, may God have mercy on free willers souls!
The Word of God, quoted in the following links, reveals that freewill is a treacherously rebellious and damnable lie.
These posts of this thread remain true, accurate, legitimate, legal, and Godly:
- "The Righteous Sovereignty Of God Post" (in this thread)
- "The Audience Of Lord Jesus For John 14:16 And John 15:16 Are All Dicsiples In All Time Post" (in this thread)
- "Matthias And Joseph In Exhibit 7 With The Lord Jesus And The Apostles 'All the Time' Post" (in this thread)
- "The Logic Statement (IF/THEN) Eliminating Any Question Of The Audience For The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 Being All Disciples In All Time Post" (in this thread)
- "The Repentance Is From God Not Conjured Up In Man By Man Post" (in this thread)
- "The Biblical Definition of Disciple Includes More People Than The 12 Apostles Post" (in this thread)
- "The Audience, Salvation, And 'I chose you' Words of Lord Jesus In John 15:16 and John 15:19 Post" (in this thread)
- "Lord Jesus Describes Part Of His Essence/Character - God Alone Chooses In Salvation Doctrine Post" (in this thread)
- "The Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17, and Joshua 24:15 Reveal The Sovereignty Of God In Man's Salvation Post" (in this thread)
- "The Addendum to Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17 Post Explaining Absence Of Choose Conjugate As Well As IF/THEN Application In Genesis 1-3 Post" (in this thread)
The Wonderful Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Jesus, Who is Lord, says "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever" (John 14:16), and Jesus, my Lord and my God, speaks these things to all His sheep of all time, and He has chosen we believers and He has given us believers the Holy Spirit!
I didn't throw it in the trashcan. I just don't think we have freewill until after our blindness is healed. I think He has to draw us, heal our blindness, and then we can make our choices.
Calm down there Skippy. I don't think their response is coming from pride but from rather from an honest attempt to reconcile something they see that isn't right.
Sure you threw it away....
You believe something that is not biblical...
That means you threw the truth away.
Just please clarify for me:
1. Are you saying that the Kingdom of God cannot be seen unless we are born again? In this case you would be right.
or
2. Are you saying that first we must be regenerated (born again)
and THEN we get faith?
Which do you agree with?
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