All the ELECT please stand up

[Heart2Soul]

But do you agree with predestination and election? Just curious. Thanks in advance.

It's in the scriptures...so yes.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

For those who did not catch this, I need to make an amendment to this post.

God is loving to those who are not His elect, but does not love them. My brother in the faith, @SovereignGrace , pointed this out to me, and I must agree. If He loved the unjust, it would not only be against His character, but would cause the unchanging God to change.

I was in error [something that is not said nearly enough on this site], and am thankful for the input and help from my brothers.

Yep! @SovereignGrace scored on that one, I got a picture of him in action:

Lol!!!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Seems to be a characteristic of love, 1 Corinthians 13:4.

But to what extent does God love the non-elect? I try to read the bible through His attributes. If He is immutable, and He is, then if He loves the non-elect, wouldn't it make Him mutable if He then pours His wrath out on the vessels of wrath? Wouldn't the vessels of wrath have His love and wrath both abiding upon them? Help me and walk me through this if I am wrong. I sure do not want to misrepresent Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yep! @SovereignGrace scored on that one, I got a picture of him in action:

Lol!!!!!

More like this....

 

[Preacher4Truth]

But to what extent does God love the non-elect? I try to read the bible through His attributes. If He is immutable, and He is, then if He loves the non-elect, wouldn't it make Him mutable if He then pours His wrath out on the vessels of wrath? Wouldn't the vessels of wrath have His love and wrath both abiding upon them? Help me and walk me through this if I am wrong. I sure do not want to misrepresent Him.

Not any more than the fact that the elect were also under wrath, but he saved them and took away his wrath, Ephesians 2:3. In so doing there is no change of his person or character. It doesn't make him mutable. His attributes and character are always the same, whether or not he exercises wrath on a person, or wrath then love, and it doesn't, IMHO have a thing to do with the fact he is immutable.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Oh, I believe the fact that God gives food, rain, clothing, shelter to the non-elect is a form of grace and love to some extent. It is certainly more than any of us deserve, and he gives his providence to both.

I'm not really knowledgable enough to say God does not love the lost to some extent, whatever that is.

How can we be under wrath, and then be under grace at a different time, and how can those who will never receive grace be taken care of providentially in time, and then damned in eternity? I mean, that's some solemn thing to consider. It appears in my finite mind there is some distinction here in the manner of love or providence.

 

[prism]

OK, so no one is elect? No one can know for sure, even though, that at one time they despised the Galilean Jew who hung on a cross, but now their only hope is in Him.
Even though they mocked at made fun of His children they now consider it to be an honor to be counted amongst the redeemed.
Even though, they once struggled earning their salvation, now rest in the perfect obedience and righteousness of Jesus.
Even though we were pulled from the pit of death and despair, we know enjoy peace, joy and faith in the Holy Ghost.
Even though......we are not elect?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

More like this....

Hmmm. Acorn Beer. Must be how they make prosciutto these days.

 

[Kermos]

John 15 was spoken directly to the apostles, they were specifically chosen, they were ordained as the passage says. Christ chose them, they did not choose him. Paul was a “chosen vessel” of Christ. You ain’t.
This was not spoken to you. You were not sitting there at the last supper. You were not promised the comforter. You, like the others are mis applying scripture.


These don’t talk about election but they are nice passages.
You weren’t promised the comforter.
...snip

The Lord Jesus declared "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" to the disciples, and this includes all followers of Jesus at any time.

The balance of this post proves the point that man can not choose God rather God chooses man.

EXHIBIT 1:

The following passage precedes John 15:16, and the passage establishes Jesus' audience which is the "disciples" from the beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17:

Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples? feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.
(John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 2:

There is record of a single person leaving the dinner prior to John 15:16, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the
John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 3:

This passage about the coming of the Holy Spirit is to the same audience as John 15:16.

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever"
(John 14:16)

EXHIBIT 4:

The Word of God says that God chooses men not men choosing God In this passage:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

EXHIBIT 5:

After John 15:16, the next indication of Jesus' audience is in this passage referring to His "disciples" which concludes the supper for John chapters 13-17:

When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples.
(John 18:1)

EXHIBIT 6:

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:
12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day?s journey away. 13When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the sonof James. 14These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with thewomen, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said
(Acts 1:12-15)

1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
(Acts 2:1-4)

EXHIBIT 7:

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. Not to mention Matthias and Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus).

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS:

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

Between Exhibit 1 (supper initiate) and Exhibit 5 (supper conclude) lies Exhibit 3 (John 14:16) and Exhibit 4 (John 15:16).

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16 and "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

Behold, in Exhibit 6, the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 people at Pentecost.

One hundred twenty people is more than twelve Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16) and "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

The names of the disciples in Exhibit 7 are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 5.

EVALUATING YOUR WORDS:

You are in error for you pontificate that the Lord Jesus' audience was only the apostles when he said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)!

You are in error claiming that the Holy Spirit does not indwell we believers.

You are in error because you do not believe the words of the Lord Jesus Christ!

You are in error because you proclaim the sovereignty of man.

You are in error because you try to spread deceit about the Word of God!

THE TRUTH:

The Sovereignty of God in part can be described as salvation occuring by God's grace for God's glory with the dead, poor, unworthy, wretched person that God chooses/elects being blessed by our Lord Jesus Christ to a loving Life eternal with God in the power of God which the person can not resist nor desires to resist because the Spirit of the Living God brings about birth, belief, and actions of the person resulting in the scriptural and spiritual fact that solely by the power of God the desires/will of the person are brought into accord and unity with God's will.

"The Righteous Sovereignty of God Post" (in this thread) remains grounded on the solid Rock!

 

[Kermos]

That doesn't sound right.

You are saved because you believe? Is that what you mean to say?

Don't you mean that you were saved from the wrath of God because God chose you to be saved, and as a result of His choosing, now you believe?

I thought your believing had nothing to do with your being saved. Do I misunderstand?

Much love!

Hi marks,

It appears that you missed one of the citations of the Word of God in my post, so let me refresh that quote here. The Lord Jesus said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
(John 6:29)

I humbly state that my belief/faith is the work of God. Praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ!

In the promise of the resurrection,
Kermos

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Keep on preaching the truth, the Soli Deo Gloria! @Anthony D'Arienzo @tzcho2 @SovereignGrace!!! Expose their false god false gospel and idol of self!

Sadly the false God-dishonoring views offered on such message boards speak to the weakness of many churches.
We need to faithfully offer truth despite some who oppose themselves by trying to dishonor the Lord.
i am thankful that there are several on here who keep on offering correction for those who have not heard it.
Some have heard it and turned to false flesh pleasing ideas.
unless God allows them to welcome truth, they will continue on to second death.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am actually really glad you brought this up; not only does it help me to better word my future responses, but it also serves to show how to properly discuss things of the Word. Allowing Scripture/Biblical principles to correct you.

Notice any time you give me a pat on the back, @Preacher4Truth seems to ever 'like' the post?

#Jealous?

#

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I am not getting what is it he believes? works? I dunno....

Many are confused because ;
1] they have not heard the truth presented accurately
2]they sit under false teaching and absorb it.
3] they themselves are false teaching
4] they go on anti -Calvinist sites
5] they have mental defects
6]they have emotional objections to truth.
7] In any case God has not yet allowed them to welcome the truth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, I believe the fact that God gives food, rain, clothing, shelter to the non-elect is a form of grace and love to some extent. It is certainly more than any of us deserve, and he gives his providence to both.

I'm not really knowledgable enough to say God does not love the lost to some extent, whatever that is.

How can we be under wrath, and then be under grace at a different time, and how can those who will never receive grace be taken care of providentially in time, and then damned in eternity? I mean, that's some solemn thing to consider. It appears in my finite mind there is some distinction here in the manner of love or providence.

I believe there are two words vastly overlooked in Ephesians 2:3. It says we were 'by nature' children of wrath. By nature, in my opinion, means they acted no differently than the non-elect. They lived the same sin-filled lives, lived like the rest, yet God set His love upon them even from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] Now, I am not advocating eternal justification, but I think there's more gold to be mined in Ephesians 2:3 than what is being preached today.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Many are confused because ;
1] they have not heard the truth presented accurately
2]they sit under false teaching and absorb it.
3] they themselves are false teaching
4] they go on anti -Calvinist sites
5] they have mental defects
6]they have emotional objections to truth.
7] In any case God has not yet allowed them to welcome the truth.

1, 2, 3, 6, 7 are definite problems. I will reserve judgment on the others.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Verses like the one you just posted solidifies my reformed beliefs. If God has begun the work, He will finish it. That’s why I am reformed. If He started a work in everybody w/o exception, then universalism is correct and no one goes to the lake of fire. That is why salvation is of the Lord(Jonah 2:9). If it was left up to us to seal the deal, we’d blow it.

Hey I just read through this again and just saw your comment about universalism being correct.
Well in this regard I don't agree. But I don't know a lot about this belief but what I do know I have difficulty agreeing with.
I am going to go do some research on it and see what I can learn.
Are you saying EVERYONE as in even those who reject Christ as their Lord and saviour?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey I just read through this again and just saw your comment about universalism being correct.
Well in this regard I don't agree. But I don't know a lot about this belief but what I do know I have difficulty agreeing with.
I am going to go do some research on it and see what I can learn.
Are you saying EVERYONE as in even those who reject Christ as their Lord and saviour?

What I meant Sister is that if God did for everyone what He does in Philippians 1:6 then everyone would be saved. What He does for His ppl in that verse He doesn't do for all.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.[Philippians 1:6]

If God was to begin a good work in someone, and drawing them to the Christ constitutes a good work, He will perfect it in them until the end. If God draws everyone w/o exception, then He would have to save everyone, seeing His drawing them constitutes a good work. That's what I referred to as universalism. If God draws everyone, and the bible avers He doesn't, but if He does, then universalism reigns supreme.

Did I clear that up for you? Sorry I didn't come across clearer.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Notice any time you give me a pat on the back, @Preacher4Truth seems to ever 'like' the post?

#Jealous?

#

Really? I never noticed. He's patted you on the back before? It's been more than *onced? It's a MIRACLE!

(*I used "onced" since it's Twanglish, your native lingo!)

 

[CNKW3]

The Lord Jesus declared "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" to the disciples, and this includes all followers of Jesus at any time.

The balance of this post proves the point that man can not choose God rather God chooses man.

EXHIBIT 1:

The following passage precedes John 15:16, and the passage establishes Jesus' audience which is the "disciples" from the beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17:

Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples? feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.
(John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 2:

There is record of a single person leaving the dinner prior to John 15:16, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the
John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 3:

This passage about the coming of the Holy Spirit is to the same audience as John 15:16.

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever"
(John 14:16)

EXHIBIT 4:

The Word of God says that God chooses men not men choosing God In this passage:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

EXHIBIT 5:

After John 15:16, the next indication of Jesus' audience is in this passage referring to His "disciples" which concludes the supper for John chapters 13-17:

When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples.
(John 18:1)

EXHIBIT 6:

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:
12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day?s journey away. 13When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the sonof James. 14These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with thewomen, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said
(Acts 1:12-15)

1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
(Acts 2:1-4)

EXHIBIT 7:

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. Not to mention Matthias and Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus).

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS:

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

Between Exhibit 1 (supper initiate) and Exhibit 5 (supper conclude) lies Exhibit 3 (John 14:16) and Exhibit 4 (John 15:16).

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16 and "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

Behold, in Exhibit 6, the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 people at Pentecost.

One hundred twenty people is more than twelve Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16) and "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

The names of the disciples in Exhibit 7 are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 5.

EVALUATING YOUR WORDS:

You are in error for you pontificate that the Lord Jesus' audience was only the apostles when he said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)!

You are in error claiming that the Holy Spirit does not indwell we believers.

You are in error because you do not believe the words of the Lord Jesus Christ!

You are in error because you proclaim the sovereignty of man.

You are in error because you try to spread deceit about the Word of God!

THE TRUTH:

The Sovereignty of God in part can be described as salvation occuring by God's grace for God's glory with the dead, poor, unworthy, wretched person that God chooses/elects being blessed by our Lord Jesus Christ to a loving Life eternal with God in the power of God which the person can not resist nor desires to resist because the Spirit of the Living God brings about birth, belief, and actions of the person resulting in the scriptural and spiritual fact that solely by the power of God the desires/will of the person are brought into accord and unity with God's will.

"The Righteous Sovereignty of God Post" (in this thread) remains grounded on the solid Rock!

In John 13-16 Jesus was with the apostles ONLY. He did not promise you the HS as a helper. There are way too many people that need help with reading comprehension. Christ DID NOT sat to YOU....I have chosen you. You need to get out of John and spend more time in the book of acts. People that were converted ALL had to do something and ALL were immediately baptized in water.

In Acts 2 the HS fell on only the apostles. Not 120. In acts 1 the APOSTLES ONLY were told to wait in Jerusalem and they would receive power. The audience in acts 2 saw what happened and said “are not all these that speak Galileans. Not all 120 were from Galilee.

I don’t deny the indwelling of the HS I just deny the HS PERSONALLY indwells the same as he did in the first century. You have no miraculous ability and no ability to demonstrate anything. They could. You can’t.

Sovereignty just means power and authority. The power and authority of God today resides in his word. That is where we get his will for our lives today. He does not micro manage our lives today. Jesus said that HE has ALL power and authority in heaven and earth. So when he says you need to believe and be baptized for remission of sins in order to be saved, I believe in the sovereignty of Christ and I obeyed his commands. You haven’t so therefore it is you who don’t believe Jesus is “Sovereign”. You believe that somehow you are special and you were just “chosen”. I think that just might be your nickname from now on.....chosen. You and Lebron.

Let’s test you.. answer these questions chosen.
Who is Jesus speaking to in Acts 1:4-8?
Whom did he promise the power of the Spirit?
Where was the 120 at this time?
We will see how honest you are with Gods word.

 

[CNKW3]

I believe there are two words vastly overlooked in Ephesians 2:3. It says we were 'by nature' children of wrath. By nature, in my opinion, means they acted no differently than the non-elect. They lived the same sin-filled lives, lived like the rest, yet God set His love upon them even from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] Now, I am not advocating eternal justification, but I think there's more gold to be mined in Ephesians 2:3 than what is being preached today.

What did those in Ephesus have to do to be converted? Did they JUST BELIEVE? There conversion account is in the Bible if you care to look it up. Nobody even cares. They just like to insert their own doctrine into the book of Ephesians. This is the danger of reading other people’s mail.