All Israel will be saved

[Paul Christensen]

The world or this world is set against Israel and always was, but when Christ Jesus came, who is in fact the King of Israel and as all Christians know that the Word Israel means the Servant of God.
Israel can never be destroyed in fact, but history shows were the people failed to serve God and then the Tribe of Israel failed and then the Tribe of Judah failed but a remanent was left of such and then Jesus came to save them, now most of such as we call Jews today failed to understand who Jesus truly was because they had been lead astray by the ones of Satan within the Jews, this had always been the case right from the beginning Adam and Eve and all the rest bound by Sin, to the Golden Calf Mob you name it, the history of bastards are all through the Bible but when the people who knew who Jesus truly was, they were the ones who Moses was saying about, that were in fact true Israel, yes they were the first to know who the King of Israel truly was and they were the first Christians.
There is no such thing as the Jews today, in fact they do not exist, bar for a few who are worthy to be called such as to that they truly follow the OT, but they are not even 10% of the people in the State that claims to be Israel, as them Jews will inform you of such a fact, if one ever bothers to listen to them truly devout and learned Jews and they truly know the OT in fact, but the rest are not worthy of been called Jews at all the devout Jews say in fact and they are not impressed with them at all.

The Kingdom of Israel is the whole world in fact, Jesus came for all people in fact, just look at the fact that under Christianity there is no Jew or Greek, for all are under Christ Jesus ! now if a Christian starts talking about idolising Jews such a one is a fool, because there is no Jew in Christianity in fact, but only the understanding of the OT that is in place and any worthy Christian can understand the OT, but no one who claims to be a Jew will understand Christianity in fact, because such is devoid of the Holy Spirit, so such are worldly = of this world !
A Truly born again Christian is in the Kingdom of God and is not in tune with this world or dances to such as the beat of such a drum, as Christians know that the Kingdom of God is within you. so as for a place on the Earth being worthy of God well that's nonsense, God does not care for such, but as to you ! you are his Baby you are his Joy and not some man made object.

The ones that will come under attack is the Christians and we are under attack now, look at all the Christians that have been murdered by Islamic rat bags in the last 30 years say and what does the media say well it hides a lot of such and does not report the facts or if it does do such it does not want to offend Islam or the Satanist. so it hides all the gory details from the west because the west could not deal with such horrific reality's. because they have been conditioned not to be able to handle the truth in fact.

It is important that you read Romans 11:26-27 in proper context and not take single verses out and form a doctrine on them. Here is the passage in context:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul tells us not to be high-minded because if Israel was cut off from the New Covenant through Christ because of their unbelief, we need to be sober minded that we could also be cut off if we stopped having faith in Christ.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
This says that God is quite able to graft them in again if they choose to believe in Christ and be part of the New Covenant.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Paul is saying that Israel are the natural branches that are part of their own olive tree. In this he is saying that Israel as God's original chosen people have not changed their status as such because of the New Covenant. Natural Israel has not be replaced by the church. The combination between the two will come only after the second coming of Christ.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul is saying here that the blindness that is afflicting Israel is only temporary during the church dispensation, so we are not to think that as gentile Christians we are better than the people of Israel in God's sight.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So, using elementary school comprehension 101, we see that Paul is saying that once all the gentiles who are going to be saved are saved, and the Rapture takes place, when Jesus comes again, He will set up His kingdom in Israel, and the remnant of Jews who are left in the country will have their blindness lifted and they will believe in Him and will have their ungodliness turned away from them. Paul is not talking about the Christian church. He is talking about the Jews living in Israel at the time when Jesus comes and places His feet on the Mount of Olives.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul says that God has made a covenant with Israel that although they were originally blinded and cut off from the New Covenant because of their unbelief and rejection of Christ, God will honour His original covenant with them and will restore them when He comes to set up His millennial kingdom in Israel.

Then Jews will combine with the gentile Christian church and together they will become the true spiritual Israel.

 

[Keraz]

All Israel shall be saved?

Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob
When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God. Otherwise, there is a Bible anomaly, not possible.


The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation Israel.

Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:

Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.


There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:

1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and

2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16



Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.

God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27

Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles. Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

It is important that you read Romans 11:26-27 in proper context and not take single verses out and form a doctrine on them. Here is the passage in context:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul tells us not to be high-minded because if Israel was cut off from the New Covenant through Christ because of their unbelief, we need to be sober minded that we could also be cut off if we stopped having faith in Christ.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
This says that God is quite able to graft them in again if they choose to believe in Christ and be part of the New Covenant.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Paul is saying that Israel are the natural branches that are part of their own olive tree. In this he is saying that Israel as God's original chosen people have not changed their status as such because of the New Covenant. Natural Israel has not be replaced by the church. The combination between the two will come only after the second coming of Christ.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul is saying here that the blindness that is afflicting Israel is only temporary during the church dispensation, so we are not to think that as gentile Christians we are better than the people of Israel in God's sight.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So, using elementary school comprehension 101, we see that Paul is saying that once all the gentiles who are going to be saved are saved, and the Rapture takes place, when Jesus comes again, He will set up His kingdom in Israel, and the remnant of Jews who are left in the country will have their blindness lifted and they will believe in Him and will have their ungodliness turned away from them. Paul is not talking about the Christian church. He is talking about the Jews living in Israel at the time when Jesus comes and places His feet on the Mount of Olives.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul says that God has made a covenant with Israel that although they were originally blinded and cut off from the New Covenant because of their unbelief and rejection of Christ, God will honour His original covenant with them and will restore them when He comes to set up His millennial kingdom in Israel.

Then Jews will combine with the gentile Christian church and together they will become the true spiritual Israel.

I agree with Karaz post 162 is correct dear Paul.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I agree with Karaz post 162 is correct dear Paul.

That is the characteristic of how Scripture describes how much we really know. 1 Corinthians 13 says that we know "in part"; in other words, we have only partial knowledge, and this accommodates both pre-trib and post-trib views.

Realistically for me, at my age, once I am dead and in the grace, it would make no difference because I wouldn't be going through the Tribulation whether it happens before the Second Coming, or after the Rapture. Therefore, it is basically a non-issue for me and I allow folks to believe what they like about it.

 

[Keraz]

That is the characteristic of how Scripture describes how much we really know. 1 Corinthians 13 says that we know "in part"; in other words, we have only partial knowledge, and this accommodates both pre-trib and post-trib views.

Realistically for me, at my age, once I am dead and in the grace, it would make no difference because I wouldn't be going through the Tribulation whether it happens before the Second Coming, or after the Rapture. Therefore, it is basically a non-issue for me and I allow folks to believe what they like about it.

As you are part of the generation that saw the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, then you just might see it all.

Anyway; why are your here if you don't care about what God has told us will happen at the end of the Christian era, before Jesus Returns?
I look forward to meeting you and those who have confused ideas about our future, in the holy Land.

 

[Paul Christensen]

As you are part of the generation that saw the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, then you just might see it all.

Anyway; why are your here if you don't care about what God has told us will happen at the end of the Christian era, before Jesus Returns?
I look forward to meeting you and those who have confused ideas about our future, in the holy Land.

It appears that you are not too willing to enter into an open discussion about the topic in the spirit of what a forum should be. If your intention in this thread is just to put forward your own particular theological view and be closed to others who may put forward an alternative view, then it would have been better to start the thread as a "no posting" teaching thread, and then people who are interested in your opinion can read and appreciate it.

So, if your intention for this thread is just a teaching thread to teach people post-trib theology, then I certainly have to ask myself why I am here. Because if it was just to teach, that I might not have bothered to make any contribution to it. Then I would have avoided being accused of being deceived, and not caring what God has told us, in having a pre-trib theology.

Actually as soon as you assert, "God has told me", I withdraw, because I wouldn't want to be seen as arguing against God!

 

[Keraz]

Actually as soon as you assert, "God has told me", I withdraw, because I wouldn't want to be seen as arguing against God!

THAT; I have never asserted!
I am just a plain Christian man, who has intensively studied the Prophetic Word for many years. I have written over 800 articles on this subject and I also read and know historical and scientific facts that pertain to what God has done and will do in the future.

So when I see people posting theories that have no Biblical support, I question them and I provide the verses that prove the correction.
That people object to me doing this, isn't my concern. Promoting the truth is.

Why can't we have a conversation about what God has planned for our future?
Too bad, I was in Christchurch just a few weeks ago.

 

[Paul Christensen]

THAT; I have never asserted!
I am just a plain Christian man, who has intensively studied the Prophetic Word for many years. I have written over 800 articles on this subject and I also read and know historical and scientific facts that pertain to what God has done and will do in the future.

So when I see people posting theories that have no Biblical support, I question them and I provide the verses that prove the correction.
That people object to me doing this, isn't my concern. Promoting the truth is.

Why can't we have a conversation about what God has planned for our future?
Too bad, I was in Christchurch just a few weeks ago.

As I have advanced in years, I have become a one message man - that Jesus died on the cross to take the penalty for our sins and rose again to give us eternal life.

I have to admit that I am somewhat prejudiced concerning post-trib theology. When I was a leader of Palmerston North Teen Challenge in the 1970s, we had a visiting preacher, Barry Smith, who came to our church for a weekend series of end-time events. He taught from a post-trib stance. He also connected the events of the 1970s with events in Revelation, and implied that Henry Kissinger could be the Antichrist. He taught that we as Christians would have to go through the Tribulation and be probably martyred. As a result of that teaching, I had to counsel and help many of our young people who became terrified. I concluded that the teaching generated a spirit of fear among our people, and therefore was not of the Holy Spirit - because the Holy Spirit does not generate fear, confusion, depression, or weirdness. He certainly does not destroy a believer's assurance of salvation as the teaching did for these young people. As a result, I decided that I wasn't going to have anything to do with end time teaching, and I was quite adamant that Barry Smith was a false teacher. I felt that the Holy Spirit confirmed my thoughts with the Scripture: "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind." Therefore, any teaching that generates fear in believers is from a spirit that is not of God.

Now, 40 years later, I know that most of the teaching concerning end-time events given in the 1970s, when it was the vogue at that time, was just a load of nonsense, and distracted people from the gospel of Christ.

So, that would explain my reaction when you said that your post-trib theology is "the truth" and it comes "from God". I had enough of that when I was still with the Charismatic movement in the 1970s, and heard plenty of "God told me", and "This is a word from God for you", and the person saying stuff that wasn't even consistent with written Scripture. I became disillusioned with the Charismatic movement, and left it in 1978, but still retained my Pentecostal theology, which is basically the Westminster Confessional of Faith (my Puritan side) and the continuance of the gifts of the Spirit for today.

So this is why I take a lot of end-time teaching with a pinch of salt, and I draw back from anyone putting forward their particular view as "this is from God." My view is that we don't really fully know how it is all going to pan out as end-time events unfold, as Paul said, we have only partial knowledge.

My view from what I see from the Scriptures is that if Paul's teaching in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is left out, then post-trib is believable. But if we include 1 and 2 Thessalonians, then questions arise, which you may be able to answer.

How come the dead in Christ rise first and meet the Lord in the air, along with those who are still alive? How come it is in the air, when according to post-trib theology Jesus comes to earth in person to gather the saints to Himself there?

And, where the Scripture says that when Jesus returns in person to intervene to stop the Armageddon armies totally destroying Israel, He comes with all His saints? Where did all those saints with Him come from if they are not still in the world to meet Him at His coming?

My only way of answering those questions is through a pre-trib Rapture in which the saints, dead and alive rise up to meet the Lord in the air, and then when He comes back to the world in person, He is accompanied by all the saints who rose up to be with Him previously. In this, I agree with John MacArthur and Dave Hunt, both experienced, mature, excellent Bible teachers, who have given comprehensive teaching on end-time prophecy. Their teaching does not generate any spirit of fear, but increases faith in Christ and a stronger trust in His promises.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The true Servants of God are Israel ! = Gods people !
They who do not serve Jesus Christ are of Satan and ones race has nothing at all to do with it at all and never did, Religion based on Race is madness, in fact what religion ever promoted a Race ?

It's the Talmud that promotes a Race card. not to mention that anyone who bothers to look into the Race aspect will find that such is a bold face lie that is more and more stupid the more one looks into such.

The Holy Spirit is devoid in such racial prejudice Talmud dribble. but the reality is if one is devoid of the Holy Spirit, one is not worthy of God.
What the Talmud rants on and on about is that all other Races are not worthy at all. in fact it was no Race anyway, but a religious Tribe to God in fact.

The Talmud is a pox on all Jews just like the Golden Calf was. the Talmud has only bastardised the Jewish religion and it openly rejects Jesus Christ totally.

No true Christian gives the Talmud whore the time of day.

Christians believe in the OT as being worthy and that this was the blueprint for the NT and the NT can be tested in regard to the OT, and that's why it's one Bible. The OT backs up the NT and the NT expands on the OT.

The Talmud has nothing to do with God at all, it is a work of man and of Satan, if any True Christian would just bother to look into what the Talmud rants on about you will see that this makes even Hitler and the worst of any Nazis look pale in contrast to the Talmud whores shocking horrifying dribble and total utter madness.

When I studied the OT books I came away thinking I was proud of my Jewish roots but as for the Talmud I seen it for what it truly is and I totally despise that whore.

It's the Talmud that has to be exposed for what it truly is by all people and not until it's exposed will this world be free from such enslavement, many Christian churches are controlled by the Talmud whore and that's why the Churches have given up on Jesus Christ, they are looking to the 2ed coming because they do not have true faith in Jesus because such are not truly born again.

The Kingdom of God is within you, it's within your grasp the Bible says. some so called Christians claim now that all Christians were never Saved and that that comes after the 2ed coming, but people have been Saved right from the Apostles on in fact. so what they are doing is making out that one can not be saved until the 2ed coming. but you need to be truly saved before the 2ed coming. not to mention that after the 2ed coming all who survive will be saved= truly born again of the Holy Spirit. not many will survive.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

As I have advanced in years, I have become a one message man - that Jesus died on the cross to take the penalty for our sins and rose again to give us eternal life.

I have to admit that I am somewhat prejudiced concerning post-trib theology. When I was a leader of Palmerston North Teen Challenge in the 1970s, we had a visiting preacher, Barry Smith, who came to our church for a weekend series of end-time events. He taught from a post-trib stance. He also connected the events of the 1970s with events in Revelation, and implied that Henry Kissinger could be the Antichrist. He taught that we as Christians would have to go through the Tribulation and be probably martyred. As a result of that teaching, I had to counsel and help many of our young people who became terrified. I concluded that the teaching generated a spirit of fear among our people, and therefore was not of the Holy Spirit - because the Holy Spirit does not generate fear, confusion, depression, or weirdness. He certainly does not destroy a believer's assurance of salvation as the teaching did for these young people. As a result, I decided that I wasn't going to have anything to do with end time teaching, and I was quite adamant that Barry Smith was a false teacher. I felt that the Holy Spirit confirmed my thoughts with the Scripture: "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind." Therefore, any teaching that generates fear in believers is from a spirit that is not of God.

Now, 40 years later, I know that most of the teaching concerning end-time events given in the 1970s, when it was the vogue at that time, was just a load of nonsense, and distracted people from the gospel of Christ.

So, that would explain my reaction when you said that your post-trib theology is "the truth" and it comes "from God". I had enough of that when I was still with the Charismatic movement in the 1970s, and heard plenty of "God told me", and "This is a word from God for you", and the person saying stuff that wasn't even consistent with written Scripture. I became disillusioned with the Charismatic movement, and left it in 1978, but still retained my Pentecostal theology, which is basically the Westminster Confessional of Faith (my Puritan side) and the continuance of the gifts of the Spirit for today.

So this is why I take a lot of end-time teaching with a pinch of salt, and I draw back from anyone putting forward their particular view as "this is from God." My view is that we don't really fully know how it is all going to pan out as end-time events unfold, as Paul said, we have only partial knowledge.

My view from what I see from the Scriptures is that if Paul's teaching in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is left out, then post-trib is believable. But if we include 1 and 2 Thessalonians, then questions arise, which you may be able to answer.

How come the dead in Christ rise first and meet the Lord in the air, along with those who are still alive? How come it is in the air, when according to post-trib theology Jesus comes to earth in person to gather the saints to Himself there?

And, where the Scripture says that when Jesus returns in person to intervene to stop the Armageddon armies totally destroying Israel, He comes with all His saints? Where did all those saints with Him come from if they are not still in the world to meet Him at His coming?

My only way of answering those questions is through a pre-trib Rapture in which the saints, dead and alive rise up to meet the Lord in the air, and then when He comes back to the world in person, He is accompanied by all the saints who rose up to be with Him previously. In this, I agree with John MacArthur and Dave Hunt, both experienced, mature, excellent Bible teachers, who have given comprehensive teaching on end-time prophecy. Their teaching does not generate any spirit of fear, but increases faith in Christ and a stronger trust in His promises.

Well thank you Paul.

Do you think that the meet the Lord in the air is literal ?

I say that such means meet the Lord Jesus in his Majesty, it's the working of the Holy Spirit that does this. the Air = Holy Spirit.
So it means in the Holy Spirit such will meet his Majesty.

How come the dead in Christ rise first, well there Souls are bound with the Holy Spirit in fact and so there Souls will meet with Jesus in his Majesty and they who are alive in the Holy Spirit are in tune just the same with the Holy Spirit as they who have past from this world and they become as one united so we all are going to be strengthened totally by the power in Jesus Christ and in such a one there is no fear come hell or high water ! as we know that we have a duty to Christ Jesus, so it is his Will that will be done, Hallelujah !

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well thank you Paul.

Do you think that the meet the Lord in the air is literal ?

Yep!

I say that such means meet the Lord Jesus in his Majesty, it's the working of the Holy Spirit that does this. the Air = Holy Spirit.
So it means in the Holy Spirit such will meet his Majesty.

If Paul meant that, he would have said it that way. Remember, he wrote by direct revelation from the Lord, and if the Lord told him that we will rise meet Him in the air at the sound of the angel's trumpet, then I take his word for it. Of course, the laws of gravity and physics will have to go by the board, but then the Lord is the master of those laws in the same way as, after his resurrection, He was able to enter through the wall of a locked room to meet with the disciples, and then rise up through the air and into a cloud at His ascension.

How come the dead in Christ rise first, well there Souls are bound with the Holy Spirit in fact and so there Souls will meet with Jesus in his Majesty and they who are alive in the Holy Spirit are in tune just the same with the Holy Spirit as they who have past from this world and they become as one united so we all are going to be strengthened totally by the power in Jesus Christ and in such a one there is no fear come hell or high water ! as we know that we have a duty to Christ Jesus, so it is his Will that will be done, Hallelujah !

This is a bit more complicated than what the Scripture actually says. If it says that the dead in Christ will rise first (showing that the dead who aren't in Christ won't until later), and their spirits in Paradise will unite with the glorified bodies rising out of the graves, then those who are alive will have their bodies changed into the glorified ones in an instant and rise to be with those already with the Lord in the air. Then He and all the saints will go to heaven to go through the judgment seat of Christ and the marriage supper of the Lamb. This will happen at the same time as the three years of Tribulation on earth as the Antichrist is revealed and does his thing in the world.

But then I'm biased toward pre-trib theology... :-)

 

[Keraz]

How come the dead in Christ rise first and meet the Lord in the air, along with those who are still alive? How come it is in the air, when according to post-trib theology Jesus comes to earth in person to gather the saints to Himself there?

And, where the Scripture says that when Jesus returns in person to intervene to stop the Armageddon armies totally destroying Israel, He comes with all His saints? Where did all those saints with Him come from if they are not still in the world to meet Him at His coming?

Thanks for your story about Barry Smith, etc. Very interesting.
Sadly there have been many who made the mistake of thinking we were at the end of the Christian age. The worst feature of this, is how so many just discount the Prophetic Word today.
But be assured; it will all happen and by the signs and the current world situation; that could be very soon.

I am no 'rapture', pre, mid, post or pan. [pan= anytime] I see that theory as the greatest deception Satan has promoted since the fake 'church', ruled by a fake Peter.
There is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven. But there are many that say such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 17:15, Proverbs 10:30, +
Jesus destroys Satan's armies at His Return by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21 People or 'saints', are not involved.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thanks for your story about Barry Smith, etc. Very interesting.
Sadly there have been many who made the mistake of thinking we were at the end of the Christian age. The worst feature of this, is how so many just discount the Prophetic Word today.
But be assured; it will all happen and by the signs and the current world situation; that could be very soon.

I am no 'rapture', pre, mid, post or pan. [pan= anytime] I see that theory as the greatest deception Satan has promoted since the fake 'church', ruled by a fake Peter.
There is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven. But there are many that say such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 17:15, Proverbs 10:30, +
Jesus destroys Satan's armies at His Return by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21 People or 'saints', are not involved.

Oh well, It won't be long before I know what the real answer is. Problem is, I won't be coming back to tell you while you are suffering during the Tribulation. :-)

 

[Keraz]

Oh well, It won't be long before I know what the real answer is. Problem is, I won't be coming back to tell you while you are suffering during the Tribulation. :)

Do you mean you will be dead or the 'rapture' will happen?
Remember; The dead know nothing... Eccl 9:5-6 and you have yet to provide any proof of a 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses.

I know I will remain on earth during all that must happen before Jesus Returns. But I don't expect to have to endure the Great Tribulation, as Revelation 12:14 says that those who stand firm in their belief in Jesus, will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 days.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Do you mean you will be dead or the 'rapture' will happen?
Remember; The dead know nothing... Eccl 9:5-6 and you have yet to provide any proof of a 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses.

I know I will remain on earth during all that must happen before Jesus Returns. But I don't expect to have to endure the Great Tribulation, as Revelation 12:14 says that those who stand firm in their belief in Jesus, will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 days.

Jesus does not return in the flesh, it's the Holy Spirit that people come to.
If one thinks that Jesus will come as a man, that be the Devil you are looking for.
Jesus came as a Man and was killed, nothing has changed today and he would be killed if he came back in the flesh, but no one can kill the Holy Spirit.
One can come to Jesus now if one wants as he is here, he never left us. as he is the Alpha and the Omega.

When the man the Devil comes to power over the whole world with the NWO most will idolise this man, they will have to or you will be killed or only starved to death, no Nation will have the power over his Mob at all because he will be Politically Correct and you all will have to be PC or you will be sorted out, just like it was done back in Hitler's days of power and all of the Communist Nations did just the same. so it will be in the day of that Devil who is to come, he will starve most of the world to death, that's easy done, the numbers of Ukraine that starved to death could of been 20 million and no one cared back then or even nowadays most do not even know of such, no one came to save them, not the UK or Germany or France no one ! the same fait will be coming. and it is easy done and will be done easy as turning off the oil supply's and bingo you will be starved to death.
Nations will have no rights because there will only be one World Nation Government Body and no one will have to Vote for such, you don't have to vote because Political Correctness rules everything so you be PC or you are dead. one need not think for yourself as that will all be done for you.
Such a system will fail because it's mans works and mans works always fails.
Look at Communism it failed and China was only propped up by the USA investments and North Korea was propped up by the USA tax payer because if they did not prop them up they would of starved to death. one only need look at how much money the USA gives North Korea every year, to the value of NK total military I believe. Australia gives Indonesia dollar for dollar to support the whole Indonesian military in fact and there military power in the world is way above Australia's Military by far. but most people do not know such facts, sure it's hidden and they claim it's for aid and not to mention that Indonesia is set to become a economy bigger than Australia soon. I wonder if we will still be funding them then. They have threaten Australia and we still give them millions every year just as the USA give to N Korea every year, you never hear such from the media as they hide the fact. our tax money goes to prop up moronic dictatorships with huge insane army's that are totally corrupt brainwashed people.
Why do they support such ? NK would of failed and became Korea, Communist China would of failed if the USA did not invest in it.
So we have the far right extremely wealthy and the Left promoting such for their own ends. the far right wealthy only work to exploit people and the left work to exploit and enslave everyone but it's all dressed up and controlled by the Talmud whore.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus does not return in the flesh, it's the Holy Spirit that people come to.

He came before in the flesh and we are told He will come again and every eye will see Him.
Your belief is not recyclable, so don't put it in the round bin, dig a deep hole and bury it!

But there will arise a powerful and charismatic man who will take control of the soon to be formed One World Govt. We Christians will not be a part of it, as we will live in all of the holy Land; in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

He came before in the flesh and we are told He will come again and every eye will see Him.
Your belief is not recyclable, so don't put it in the round bin, dig a deep hole and bury it!

But there will arise a powerful and charismatic man who will take control of the soon to be formed One World Govt. We Christians will not be a part of it, as we will live in all of the holy Land; in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

True born again Christians are not apart of it and never have been, tho we are in this world we are also in the Kingdom of God Spiritually. it is due to as such that the world will one day become the Kingdom of God and every eye will see.
If one is not truly born again they have not the power of the Holy Spirit, so as such one can not see.
No one has ever seen God without the Holy Spirit ever and Jesus is Emmanuel God with us ? Jesus was here and who seen him ? many in the flesh, but so what ! they needed the Holy Spirit to truly seen him or to know him.

You know what the Bible says about they who did not see Jesus in the flesh ? but faith that is the key to what it says about they who do have total faith in him, tho they never seen him ? do you understand the power of such, well it's the Holy Spirit, did you know when Jesus was walking in the flesh that no one really knew him, but for Nathaniel directly because of what Jesus said to him and not to mention that what Jesus said to Peter who he was, as to why Peter knew who Jesus was ? it was the Holy Spirit that gave him that understanding, it was not of his flesh that gave Paul that understanding and that's why Jesus called him Peter and build the Church body of people on this Rock = Spiritual foundation. Paul was given the keys of such, just as anyone does who has faith in Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit an not to do with mans works.

So fact is that not even Saul knew that he was Jesus Christ, now Jesus called Saul, Peter directly when he first met him.

There was no fantasy world Bag ! Hey ! It's the Son of God that is here to all when Jesus came ? was it ! so why would it be so if such was to come again in the flesh, well no because this is a Spiritual thing that happens in fact.

Man killed him then and they would kill him now if such a one came in the flesh, nothing has changed with carnal man.

I ask who people think that if he was here in the flesh, would that give you more faith ? well it would not do such for me, because I am full of the Holy Spirit Born again, I don't need such to in rich my faith at all, my faith is fully developed. I do not see flesh and bones as the key to faith in Jesus Christ.
People who are looking to the Flesh Jesus are not truly born again, they are worldly people who are lost for they lack of the Holy Spirit. Look at the Disciples they did not truly know Jesus until he was risen and that was when the message truly hit home for all.