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Jericho

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What is ethical eating?
There is a segment among the vegetarian and vegan communities that contends that eating meat is morally wrong and eating vegetables is not only more ethical but more environmentally friendly as well. Not all vegetarians and vegans hold this view, of course, but those that do believe themselves to be morally superior to those that don’t. They have essentially turned a diet into an ideology, and an ideology into a quasi-religion.

To preface, I don’t have a problem with vegetarians or vegans. If someone prefers to eat only vegetables, that’s their prerogative. To each their own. However, I do take issue with those who turn it into an ethical argument. These are who this article is aimed at. This may seem like a strange topic to cover at first, but it also ties in with environmentalism and climate change.

Ethical vegetarians and vegans will contend the same reasons for not eating animals are the same reasons for not eating humans, i.e., the meat is murder argument. So let’s consider this. Ethics is defined as “a set of moral principles, especially ones relating to or affirming a specified group, field, or form of conduct.” When ascribing ethics to a diet, it becomes a religion of sorts. This explains the religious zeal militant vegans and vegetarians have against meat eaters. So, that begs the question of what makes eating vegetables so ethical. What do they base it upon besides emotion and opinions? Let's first address the issue of killing animals for food.

Is meat murder?
The ethical eaters often confuse killing with murdering, but they are two separate things. Murder always involves killing, but killing doesn't always involve murder. The distinction is that murder involves malice, which is defined as “a desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.” When humans kill animals for food, there’s no malice or ill will involved. Animals are killed for sustenance and, more often in times past, clothing. Therefore, the meat equals murder argument is only a fallacy designed to demonize meat eaters. Incidentally, many of these same people who show such compassion for animals don’t show the same compassion for unborn babies, but I digress.

Another problem with equating killing animals with murder is that human life must, by necessity, become devalued and lowered to that of animals. This is because animals are a lower life form and can never be anything more than that. They can’t sympathize, emphasize, or show compassion and mercy. They have no moral sense of right and wrong, only instinct. Unlike humans, they can’t philosophize and question the nature of reality or ponder the meaning of life. They have no inner desire for a greater purpose or the need to worship a higher being. They have no hopes, dreams, or aspirations, but humans do. These are but a few of the vast differences between humans and animals. So the meat is murder argument turns humans into animals, stripping away everything that makes us unique and special, including our ability to ponder topics such as these.

With that in mind, if we run the meat is murder argument to its logical (or illogical) conclusion, shouldn’t it also be morally wrong for animals to eat other animals? If we are all equal, then why are animals held to a different standard than humans? To acknowledge such a contradiction would be to admit that humans and animals are different.

Plants don’t like to be eaten either
Whether one eats meat or vegetables for sustenance, the end result is the same. Something once living is eaten so that something else might live. Such is the cycle of life. And, as it turns out, plants don’t particularly like to be eaten either. Experiments on the thale cress plant, for example, indicate that it knows when it’s being eaten and releases a mild toxic to deter predators. And this defense mechanism isn’t unique to the thale cress.

Many plants we eat produce anti-nutrients, which act as a protective mechanism and interfere with the absorption of nutrients. They can also cause a host of other problems in the human body. Without going into too much detail, these anti-nutrients include phytic acid, lectins, oxalates, saponins, and phytoestrogens. Phytoestrogens, which are found in flax and soy, mimic human estrogen. Not only do they cause birth control effects in insects, but they also cause hormone imbalances in humans. Incidentally, most vegetarian dishes contain soy, which has been shown to lower testosterone in men. Soy is also one of the most genetically modified crops, with copious amounts of pesticides. So, with all that in mind, since plants don’t like to be eaten and they can’t run away like animals, the case could as easily be made that it’s less ethical to eat vegetables. Of course, I'm being facetious to make a point.

Is eating vegetables better for the environment?
Now we get to the crux of the matter. The second issue is the belief that ethical eating is better for the environment. However, agriculture also contributes greenhouse gases and pollution. For example, rice is the second largest crop in the world, but rice paddies are also a significant source of methane emissions. Then there are the fertilizers we use to grow crops, which contribute greatly to the increase of nitrous oxide in the environment. The runoff from fertilizers also pollutes our lakes, rivers, and oceans. The pesticides used to ward off insects to increase crop yields also kill bees, which are important for pollination. Not to mention the negative health effects that pesticides have on humans. All this is to not demonize agriculture, but to make the point that everything humans do will have an impact on the environment. There’s no getting around that.

Not enough farmland to feed the world
There is another consideration. Vegetables alone may not be able to support a world population of seven billion people and counting. We have already cleared an area roughly the size of South America for crops. In order to clear more crop land would require cutting down rain forests, which destroy plant biodiversity, and destroy animal habitats, leading to extinctions.

To compound the issue, not all soil or climate is conducive to growing crops. The World Bank reported in 2010 that only 37.7 percent of the world’s total land area is considered agricultural land. Some climates are too cold, while others are too hot. Other factors include soil composition, rockiness, and altitude. Then there is urban development, which limits the amount of available farmland. All this is to say that meat helps to offset global food consumption.

Cows, public enemy number one
Since we’re on this topic, cows have been a big target because of their emissions of methane gas. Direct emissions from cattle represent 2 percent of total U.S. greenhouse emissions. Globally, that number increases to 6% when feed production and land usage are factored in. However, there are important considerations that are ignored when it comes to cattle and methane emissions. Cattle that are grain-fed produce fewer emissions than those that are grass-fed. Cattle intended for slaughter typically spend two-thirds of their lives grazing, which helps with things like erosion, and the rest is spent grain-fed, which reduces methane emissions. Also, as beef production has gotten more efficient, so too have carbon emissions from cattle declined.

But is methane emissions from cattle really a problem? Contrary to popular belief, methane, like carbon dioxide, is not a poisonous gas. Methane is a natural, non-toxic gas that comes from the earth, animals, and even humans. Methane is touted as a concern because it absorbs the sun’s heat with even more efficiency than carbon dioxide. However, atmospheric water already absorbs the heat that methane could, and the same heat cannot be absorbed twice. Moreover, the amount of methane that makes up our atmosphere is infinitesimally small, only 0.00017 percent. There’s actually three times more helium in the atmosphere than methane. Plus, methane dissipates after 12 years. In the end, there is no evidence that methane or carbon dioxide emissions have replaced the natural forces that are responsible for climate change throughout Earth’s history.

If anyone thinks that methane from cattle is still a problem, there are viable alternatives to beef without the need to go meatless. The other red meat, ostriches, only have one stomach, so their emissions of methane are considerably lower. As an added bonus, their meat is low in fat and cholesterol and high in protein and iron.

Conclusion
To summarize, eating vegetables is no more ethical than eating meat. Nor is it more environmentally friendly to eat vegetables. Whether our food comes from animals or vegetables, they both equally have an impact on the environment. But advances in technology are making both more environmentally friendly. And finally, the methane emitted from cows and the danger it poses are largely overexaggerated. So don’t feel guilty about eating a juicy hamburger once in a while, or if you prefer, an ostrich burger. Bon appetite!
 

Windmill Charge

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eating vegetables is no more ethical than eating meat
On what bases do ' they ' claim that eating meat in unethical?

God gave permission to eat meat, so it is ethical.

Do they realise that I order to stop the eating g of meat, use of animal products etc will result in the extinction of animals.
Example the rare breeds programs to preserve u economical food animals.
If people.e want cuddly creatures they have to pay there way.
 
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Jericho

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On what bases do ' they ' claim that eating meat in unethical?

Thanks for the reply. I think it's an emotional argument more than anything. It's the result of being "civilized" and insulated from the realities of nature. All of our food is produced out of sight and out of mind. We are so far removed from having to hunt and kill our own food that people have become oversensitized and squimish at the thought of killing animals to eat. Plus, we've had decades of movies and TV shows humanizing animals. That's my theory anyway.
 

JohnDB

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Cattle are carbon neutral. Sorry....big study just released a report on this.

PETA People Eating Tasty Animals.

But it's usually this same crowd who also champions abortions as well....total hypocrisy. The women accidentally get knocked up during one of their sit-ins or rallies and then use abortion as birth control.....as if that's not hypocritical behavior.

Protein deficient diets cause people to lose moral fiber. Meaning that they are more suggestible to just about anything requiring morality. Hitler used this with "stubborn" children in his youth program.

It's something to be avoided and those involved with that type of behavior. Just saying.
 
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Windmill Charge

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I think it's an emotional argument more than anything
If this is someone you are actually talking with, press for a reasonable explanation.
Cute fuzzy animal arguments are countered with what about ugly animals, are they happy to eat warthogs and other non cute animals?
 

JohnDB

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If this is someone you are actually talking with, press for a reasonable explanation.
Cute fuzzy animal arguments are countered with what about ugly animals, are they happy to eat warthogs and other non cute animals?
I still reply with Colossians 2:23. It's only an appearance of wisdom. Meaning it is not.
 

MatthewG

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"Addressing the ethical eating argument"

Is best understood by the holy spirit of Yahavah.

Screenshot 2024-08-27 085159.pngScreenshot 2024-08-27 085237.png
Screenshot 2024-08-27 085309.png
 

Skovand

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Just to be clear you are quite wrong with some of your statements. But I’ll got through a few of them later. The first thing you got very wrong is that vegans turned their diet into an ideology. That’s simply incorrect. What vegans did was create a diet, along with other lifestyle choices like not buying leather, from their ideologies. Veganism is about ethics and out of those ethics came a diet.

The ethics is that animals are other earthlings. That they have thoughts, free will, and emotions. They understand joy, sadness, anger and so on. Why veganism tends to do is extend that courtesy to more than just dogs.

Do you think it’s wrong to beat and kick dogs? If so why? What’s wrong with beating a dog in your opinion? Is it only ok to hurt animals if you plan on eating some of their corpse later?

Do you think a puppy that grows up being beaten feels anger, fear and confusion? Would you want to save that puppy and tell others it’s ethically wrong to beat puppies?

How do you think pigs and chickens feel growing up being harmed and living in suffering and fear? So you think pigs, who are actually more intelligent than dogs, also feel sadness and anger at suffering by humans?

That’s the ethical stances, animal compassion, that is the core of veganism. From that stance came the diet, not the other way around like you wrongly suggested.

You also mentioned plants. Do you know that plants don’t feel pain? A lot of what you’re saying is the heavily ignored book about the secret life of plants. While plants are alive. Just like fungi and lichens. But being scientifically considered alive is not the same as being a conscious self aware being.

There is a scientific subject called ecology and coevolution. Plants have evolved defense mechanisms over hundreds if millions of years. Some of those mechanism are structural such as thicker leaves or thorny leaves and some are based around chemical composition. When a leaf is eaten it triggers a chemical/hormonal response to change the chemical composition of the leaf. Making it more bitter. Same as how chlorophyll often does leaving behind other pigments.
 

Jericho

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Just to be clear you are quite wrong with some of your statements. But I’ll got through a few of them later. The first thing you got very wrong is that vegans turned their diet into an ideology. That’s simply incorrect. What vegans did was create a diet, along with other lifestyle choices like not buying leather, from their ideologies. Veganism is about ethics and out of those ethics came a diet.

There are two primary reasons why people are vegans: they believe it's healthier and/or they believe it's ethical. Not all vegans eat for ethical reasons, but many do. If they apply ethics to a diet, then it's an ideology. Whether the ideology came first or the diet came first is irrelevant.

The ethics is that animals are other earthlings. That they have thoughts, free will, and emotions. They understand joy, sadness, anger and so on. Why veganism tends to do is extend that courtesy to more than just dogs.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other earthlings." Your profile faith says Christian and other earthlings is not a Christian concept. How do you reconcile God removing the prohibition to eat animals after the flood?

Do you think it’s wrong to beat and kick dogs? If so why? What’s wrong with beating a dog in your opinion? Is it only ok to hurt animals if you plan on eating some of their corpse later?

We're not sadists. No one who hunts or kills animals for food does so with the intent or enjoyment of inflicting pain. It's completely possible to kill an animal for sustenance quickly, and if done right, painlessly.

That’s the ethical stances, animal compassion, that is the core of veganism.

And that's why it's an emotional argument more than anything. The reality is life is predicated on death. Plants get their nutrients, in part, from decayed plant, animal, and insect matter in the soil. Animals eat the plants. Other animals eat the animals that eat plants. Humans eat both plants and animals until they too return to the soil. It's the cycle of life.

Plants have evolved defense mechanisms over hundreds if millions of years. Some of those mechanism are structural such as thicker leaves or thorny leaves and some are based around chemical composition. When a leaf is eaten it triggers a chemical/hormonal response to change the chemical composition of the leaf.

Plants are not sentient and do not feel pain as animals do, but they are highly sensitive to being eaten and respond accordingly, as you have mentioned. That still reinforces my point that plants don't particularly want to be eaten either; otherwise, they wouldn't have such defense mechanisms.
 

Skovand

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There are two primary reasons why people are vegans: they believe it's healthier and/or they believe it's ethical. Not all vegans eat for ethical reasons, but many do. If they apply ethics to a diet, then it's an ideology. Whether the ideology came first or the diet came first is irrelevant.



I'm not sure what you mean by "other earthlings." Your profile faith says Christian and other earthlings is not a Christian concept. How do you reconcile God removing the prohibition to eat animals after the flood?



We're not sadists. No one who hunts or kills animals for food does so with the intent or enjoyment of inflicting pain. It's completely possible to kill an animal for sustenance quickly, and if done right, painlessly.



And that's why it's an emotional argument more than anything. The reality is life is predicated on death. Plants get their nutrients, in part, from decayed plant, animal, and insect matter in the soil. Animals eat the plants. Other animals eat the animals that eat plants. Humans eat both plants and animals until they too return to the soil. It's the cycle of life.



Plants are not sentient and do not feel pain as animals do, but they are highly sensitive to being eaten and respond accordingly, as you have mentioned. That still reinforces my point that plants don't particularly want to be eaten either; otherwise, they wouldn't have such defense mechanisms.
Sure…. But since plants are not sentient, the defense mechanism is not about avoiding pain and suffering.

Yea veganism is about ethics. But the ethics was not food driven like you originally pushed. I corrected that misunderstanding. Why is earthling not a Christian argument? Caring about suffering is very much a Christian concept. Saying you are against animal abuse is not anti Christian. Intent to cause suffering or not does not matter. What matters is what happens.
 

Jericho

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Sure…. But since plants are not sentient, the defense mechanism is not about avoiding pain and suffering.

Yea veganism is about ethics. But the ethics was not food driven like you originally pushed. I corrected that misunderstanding. Why is earthling not a Christian argument? Caring about suffering is very much a Christian concept. Saying you are against animal abuse is not anti Christian. Intent to cause suffering or not does not matter. What matters is what happens.

I didn't say that being against animal abuse is anti-Christian. But, equating animals with humans certainly would be. It seems from your previous comments you are conflating animal abuse with the eating of meat. The two are not synonymous. It's possible to be carnivorous or omnivorous and still care about the welfare of animals, which we should.
 

Skovand

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I didn't say that being against animal abuse is anti-Christian. But, equating animals with humans certainly would be. It seems from your previous comments you are conflating animal abuse with the eating of meat. The two are not synonymous. It's possible to be carnivorous or omnivorous and still care about the welfare of animals, which we should.
Yes I am conflating animal abuse with eating animals. Animals you eat go through extensive abuse, physically and psychologically. No different from the abuse that animals go through being beaten or killed like dogs.

You can’t care about something and then torture it, beat it, kill it and eat it. You can say you care about your pet, but you can’t claim to care about animals while doing that anymore than a nazi can say they care about Jewish men and women.
 

MA2444

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There is a segment among the vegetarian and vegan communities that contends that eating meat is morally wrong and eating vegetables is not only more ethical but more environmentally friendly as well. Not all vegetarians and vegans hold this view, of course, but those that do believe themselves to be morally superior to those that don’t. They have essentially turned a diet into an ideology, and an ideology into a quasi-religion.

I had those grass eaters tell me that once and I told them the only reason I am eating the cow is because I caught it in their field eating their food so killed it for them! I'm just cleaning up the mess?
 

Skovand

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I had those grass eaters tell me that once and I told them the only reason I am eating the cow is because I caught it in their field eating their food so killed it for them! I'm just cleaning up the mess?
Oh hoo. You sound like a real McCoy…….ahoot ahoot ahoot.
 
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MA2444

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Oh hoo. You sound like a real McCoy…….ahoot ahoot ahoot.

Well it would be downright sinning to kill a cow and then let the carcass lay and waste that food. I'm sorry brother but I cant help it, I love me a good steak! I know how to cook up that steak perfectly!
 

MA2444

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Sure…. But since plants are not sentient, the defense mechanism is not about avoiding pain and suffering.

Yea veganism is about ethics. But the ethics was not food driven like you originally pushed. I corrected that misunderstanding. Why is earthling not a Christian argument? Caring about suffering is very much a Christian concept. Saying you are against animal abuse is not anti Christian. Intent to cause suffering or not does not matter. What matters is what happens.

Your a vegan too? I should have known. Those who support gbtqz's may have other bad habits, lol. Sorry, no offense but I'm pretty sure scripture says do not call unclean what God has said is clean? I'm sure it does.
 

Skovand

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Your a vegan too? I should have known. Those who support gbtqz's may have other bad habits, lol. Sorry, no offense but I'm pretty sure scripture says do not call unclean what God has said is clean? I'm sure it does.
Clean and unclean is irrelevant to the discussion of ethics and improving what was liberal 2,000 years ago.

You think being a vegan is a bad habit? You should also know…. Most lgbt people are not vegan. Veganism is not a liberal or conservative thing. But in order to understand something you have to first have a desire to learn about it and then have the ability to learn about it.

You ever looked at what Paul wrote? Romans 14:19-23
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong to make someone stumble by what you eat; 21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble.22 Hold the conviction that you have as your own before God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat because they do not act from faith, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

So here despite it being clean or unclean eating meat , not merely meat sacrificed to idols but meat in general, is an issue of personal conviction. So far, you’ve not heard me argue it’s a sin to eat meat or that it’s unclean to eat meat.

What you have seen me arguing is that eating meat is unethical because it’s unethical to needlessly cause something to feel fear, sadness and pain just because you personally enjoy it. Same as it’s not ethical, even if the Bible never calls it a sin, to torture a dog before eating it, or keeping a puppy chained up in a small cage to keep meat tender to eat it.

IMG_4695.jpeg

Now I know that you personally support what you see in that picture and that you think it’s perfectly fine. I personally, find it disgusting and sad that these animals don’t get to experience freedom, love and joy. They get left in small cages, on top of
Each other, peeing and pooping on one another, feed fattening food for several months, until finally it’s time for them to be dragged out, killed, skinned, gutted, beheaded and cooked.

It seems god permits us to eat animals because of the hardness of our hearts. Just like with divorce. But eventually, this evil is not permitted since God says Lion and lamb will lay together and death won’t be there.

So in the same way that early Christians owned slaves, beat them with whips when they disobeyed. We know they were beaten. Paul admitted to it happening and did not call it sin. Instead of saying masters don’t beat them let me
Take his punishment instead.

But as civilization grows, those who truly place Christ and love at the center consistently moves further and further from the world. From not caring about those suffering to caring about them. Christ finally abolishes this too in the restored heaven and earth stories.
 

MA2444

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So here despite it being clean or unclean eating meat , not merely meat sacrificed to idols but meat in general, is an issue of personal conviction. So far, you’ve not heard me argue it’s a sin to eat meat or that it’s unclean to eat meat.

You sure said it was unethical. I am a meat eater and always have been. So what? So why are you trying to make me sound bad because I eat meat?

So I eat meat, and you dont want to eat meat. Big deal. You can not eat meat if you dont want to.

What you have seen me arguing is that eating meat is unethical because it’s unethical to needlessly cause something to feel fear, sadness and pain just because you personally enjoy it. Same as it’s not ethical, even if the Bible never calls it a sin, to torture a dog before eating it, or keeping a puppy chained up in a small cage to keep meat tender to eat it.

Do I cause fear sadness and pain when I go big game hunting? You are assuming a lot! Both of the last two Deer I killed I used iron sights and crept up to within 80 yards of one and about 65 yards from the other. Both Deer were dead right there with one shot each. If I wasnt positive that I could take them perfectly with one shot without wounding them then I wouldn't have taken the shot. You don't know anything about real hunting do you?

One shot one kill. DRT. They dropped and were dead, like lights out. Maybe you can explain to me how those animals suffered in any way?

fragging amateur's. lol.
 

MA2444

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What you have seen me arguing is that eating meat is unethical because it’s unethical to needlessly cause something to feel fear, sadness and pain just because you personally enjoy it. Same as it’s not ethical, even if the Bible never calls it a sin, to torture a dog before eating it, or keeping a puppy chained up in a small cage to keep meat tender to eat it.

Yeah but who eats dogs though? Not me. Not anybody I know or have ever heard of.

I remember one time me and my brother was on our way to work and headed up the mountain to Woodland Park (CO) and was right behind an elderly couple who hit a deer in the road.

We pulled over and made sure they were ok and got the deer out of the road and waited for the police to show up and when they did I told them that we witnessed it and also...can we keep the meat Officer? And he said yes and wrote us a out a "Meat donation certificate" so we wouldnt get in trouble with it out of season, lol!

Now we took the day off work and got the deer and field dressed it...and it was pregnant and it was dead also so we ate it too. That was as good as any day at work, we brought home the bacon so to speak and provided for our families. Now suppose you tell me what was unethical about that?
 

Skovand

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So all the meat you eat is roadkill? Or is that just an outlier event that does not even make up
1/10,000th of your typical meat consumption? If it’s not normal for you to eat almost everything as road kill, then what you did was argued a stupid point. Know what kinds of people argue stupid points? Feel free to respond. I won’t be reading it. You are ignored. This one is just finishing up this conversation. Everything else just says…. Ignored content. But in a few weeks I’ll give you one more chance to see if you’re worth more than just an occasional memory when I see some low drag.