RLT63
Well-Known Member
“Believe it. I cannot believe there are so many people who hold their knowledge of foreign languages as superior to translators”. I agree
A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
For the record, I believe the poster who pointed out the difference between egg and mallow referenced KJB, not KJV. Maybe that’s the difference.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Dropship
Well-Known Member
1- I never said you couldn't "chill and recharge your spiritual batteries" on any day you like.....it was just never commanded for Christians to be done on a certain day.......
2- The ones they all accept as the very foundations of their belief system.....some of which I am not permitted to speak about here....even in this forum.....
3- non-denominationals just believe whatever they wish..It is the lazy person's "Christianity" IMO.......
4- "adult thinking" is what we need, not childishness in the form of spiritual immaturity...........
5- What is a Christian doing in a chatroom talking to witches? (1 Cor 15:33)........
1- Yes I totally agree it doesn't matter what day the sabbath is, so long as we use the day to chill and recharge our spiritual batteries..:)
2- If you mean some people here think Jesus was God, and that you think they're wrong, I agree with you there too and am not afraid to say so. After all, Jesus made it plain many times that he wasn't God, e.g.-
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
3- Non-denoms such as me believe only what Jesus himself said, we don't need to join a denomination and be told by them what to think..
4- If you want me to be stuffy and boring, you're gonna have ter get yerself another boy..:)
5- It's a Christian duty to set others straight..:)
"Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Tim 2:23-26)
Pharoah- "Take a hike bub"
Moses- "Get on that naughty step this instant you plonker!"
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
But it’s the work of translators that I presented to you......it wasn’t my knowledge....it was taken from a well respected source. Translators often take licence because of pre-conceived ideas that colour their interpretation.
Thank you....you confuse the socks off me sometimes. I feel like I’m dealing with Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
Thank you again for the clarification.....but the NWT uses “Mallow”. The KJV uses “egg”. Confusing again.....
The NWT is one of the best translations I have ever read because every bit of research I have done on word meanings has always been consistent and accurate....I don’t find other translations to be so...especially the confusing language of the KJV, which to many has become an idol all by itself. Inaccuracies are glossed over or justified. I want the truth, no matter how difficult it is to swallow.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Well, I don’t want you to be bored with what I might post.
It’s clear that we agree about some stuff but not on other things. Keeps it interesting.
It must have been the poster who got it confused who brought it to light. For the record, he used the abbreviation KJB. Not sure how that is different from KJV.
Anyway, looking at Biblegateway’ ‘all English translations’, most have egg but many also have mallow. Therefore, I would not use that verse to conclude there is something corrupt about any translation.
Make A Blessed Day!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No Sabbath observance was commanded for Christians.....it was between Jehovah and Israel alone. (Exodus 31:16-17) Any day of the week is a good day to worship Jehovah.
I would guess that most ‘non-denoms’ would disagree with you...? I guess this would be one of those topics not discussed? Do you avoid divisive topics? Do non-denom ministers have to avoid certain controversial subjects?
I agree that what Jesus taught is super important......but we don’t have a Bible with only what Jesus taught.....the important thing I believe, is that Jehovah is the author of the whole Bible....he is the one who taught Jesus what to teach. (John 7:16) Jesus is the one who taught the apostles what to teach.....so to ignore parts of the Bible because it isn’t what Jesus personally taught, is to dismiss a lot of vital information.
God’s word is written under his inspiration as Paul said in 2 Tim 3:16-17.....but the “scripture” he was referring to was the OT.....the NT, with Jesus words recorded, was not yet written.
As for the “stuffy and boring” thing......there is a time for humour and there is a time to be serious. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8) I think we have to know which is which...and when it’s appropriate or inappropriate.
And it is a Christian’s duty to set people straight about a lot of things.....but I believe that the scripture you quoted was directed towards those who already considered themselves “Christians”....or at least worshippers of the true God (Jews).......the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 2, is Paul admonishing Timothy about how to conduct himself among those who already have a faith but are contentious.
Now that just made me laugh out loud.....British humour is unique. You got me....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I am starting to think that you guys have no comprehension of what "materialization" means......this is the ability of spirit beings to clothe themselves with bodies of flesh. It is well documented in the scriptures.
I have mentioned the angels who visited Abraham, and who ate and drank what their host provided. (Gen 18)
Two of the angels went on to Sodom, and also ate and drank what was provided by their host.....Gabriel appeared as a man to both Daniel and Mary......what is it that you cannot comprehend?
Jesus presented himself to his disciples as a man of flesh.....for two reasons...
1) Because it was against God's Law to communicate with spirits. (Deut 18:9-12)
2) Because the disciples still had no notion of going to heaven and expected Jesus to establish his Kingdom on earth.
Even as he was ascending to heaven... "they asked him, “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”
A "resurrection" to a Jew meant a restoration of life in the flesh.....he told them to wait for the promised holy spirit and then all would be made clear so that the message they were to preach "to the most distant part of the earth" would be in full knowledge about what the Kingdom was....their role in it.....and mankind's hope for the future because of it. This is the "good news of the kingdom" something that orthodox Christianity has lost. (Matthew 24:14; Matt 28:19-20) They have no intelligible message concerning the Kingdom because they have no idea even what it is...
By materializing a body with wounds, Jesus was proving to the doubters who he was. Do you really think that God would raise up his son with all the inflicted wounds on his body if his spirit had the power to heal him?
Why are these points just slipping right by you?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
You just ignored the scripture because it doesn’t fit what you are pushing. I thought you would use the Greek to explain why spirit doesn’t really mean spirit in this verse but no, you just ignore it all together. Why is the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ so important? | GotQuestions.orgI am starting to think that you guys have no comprehension of what "materialization" means......this is the ability of spirit beings to clothe themselves with bodies of flesh. It is well documented in the scriptures.
I have mentioned the angels who visited Abraham, and who ate and drank what their host provided. (Gen 18)
Two of the angels went on to Sodom, and also ate and drank what was provided by their host.....Gabriel appeared as a man to both Daniel and Mary......what is it that you cannot comprehend?
Jesus presented himself to his disciples as a man of flesh.....for two reasons...
1) Because it was against God's Law to communicate with spirits. (Deut 18:9-12)
2) Because the disciples still had no notion of going to heaven and expected Jesus to establish his Kingdom on earth.
Even as he was ascending to heaven... "they asked him, “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”
A "resurrection" to a Jew meant a restoration of life in the flesh.....he told them to wait for the promised holy spirit and then all would be made clear so that the message they were to preach "to the most distant part of the earth" would be in full knowledge about what the Kingdom was....their role in it.....and mankind's hope for the future because of it. This is the "good news of the kingdom" something that orthodox Christianity has lost. (Matthew 24:14; Matt 28:19-20) They have no intelligible message concerning the Kingdom because they have no idea even what it is...
By materializing a body with wounds, Jesus was proving to the doubters who he was. Do you really think that God would raise up his son with all the inflicted wounds on his body if his spirit had the power to heal him?
Why are these points just slipping right by you?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Once more......just in case it isn't obvious.....Jesus materialized human bodies sometimes unlike the one he had before. Sometimes with wounds and at other times they were never mentioned. His disciples didn't always recognize him. In his 'appearances' after his resurrection he most likely suddenly disappeared from their sight, even as we read of his doing after he had comforted the two disciples on the way to Emmaus. After making himself known to them, “he disappeared”. (Luke 24:31)
He "appeared" in a locked room on another occasion. (John 20:19)
He was obviously not a spirit when in human form.....he returned to the spirit realm when he left the ones he had appeared to.
He did not reside with his apostles with whom he had been their constant companion and teacher for the previous three and a half years.
Jesus was not raised in a physical body.....flesh cannot exist in heaven.
Adventageous
Member
This is the great spiritualism error of the WTS, which follows Romanism.
God the Father, the Son, the angelic beings of Heaven (and even devils, fallen angels), and humanity all have actual "form", "nature", "shape", and are not spiritual shades that take a form when they please. That is spiritualism, and occult (just like Johannes Greber).
The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe (a false idea leading to pantheism, or panentheism).
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.
As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).
God has hairs on His head, Daniel 7:9; and has hands, Exodus 33:22; and has feet, Exodus 24:10; and loins [H4975; waist to upper thighs, see 1 Kings 18:46, etc], Ezekiel 1:27; a face, Matthew 18:10; a heart, Genesis 6:6; parts, Exodus 22:32; a form, Philippians 2:6; shape, John 5:37; is a Person, Hebrews 1:3; is a Soul, Jeremiah 5:9; and is a Spirit, thus has a mind, Matthew 12:28.
See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:10).
The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).
The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).
Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).
Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
Angels have their own celestial (heavenly) nature and flesh:
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange [foreign, alien] flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
Angels are celestial beings, and as such have celestial flesh bodies. They are "ministering spirits (intelligences)", and as such, they havea mind, which controls their bodies (as ours), and they serve with their hands and feet, their bodies, souls (persons/beings).
In the resurrection, Jesus has a permanent glorified flesh body, and it doesn't evaporate. Invisibility (unable to be seen), is NOT aethereality. Jesus didn't *poof* into non-existence, He simply disappears from human sight, to re-appear when he desires to be seen. This is invisiblity, not aethereality. Jesus never walked through walls, nor locked doors. He came in (invisibly), at night, with the two from Emmaus, and later again as others entered not being noticed, as he was not noticed on the Road to Emmaus. When Jesus was resurrected, the angel Gabriel had to descend from heaven and roll away the stone so Jesus could walk out (like Lazarus way before, and the others that were reusrrected with Jesus, whose tombs were opened when Jesus died). They got up and walked out. They didn't *poof* into existence from nothing. They could no more walk out of those tombs unless the rocks/stones had been rolled away than you or I could. The reason the disciples did not recognize Jesus often, is that before He died He was emaciated, and in the resurrection, He is healthy, glorified. He will always have the scars in Hands, and Side, Acts 1:11 ("same Jesus"); Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Ephesians 5:30; Habakkuk 3:4; Zechairah 13:6.
Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
The WTS does not realize what it teaches in its gross occultism. They have no idea what it does to the gospel itself, nullifying it, and even destoying the real reward in Heaven, the Law of God, and even God (the Father) Himself.When Jesus appeared with the two angels (Gabriel and 'Herald') to Abraham, he did not take human flesh nature, but simply came in his own eternal divine nature, and the angels in their created heavenly (celestial) natures, and wore clothes upon those natures. This is why they could eat, drink, have their feet washed, etc. This was why Lot could bring them into his house and serve them. They have their own flesh bodies of heaven (celestial). They cannot remove their natures.
"We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.
An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.
We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.
Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity." -
Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jesus is not nor ever was a spirit being. Scripture explicitly calls him a man over and over and over again. This means he is flesh and blood. And could only have been resurrected as flesh and blood. If there possibly could have been any rational doubt about this, Jesus explicitly rejects the claim that he is a spirit @ Luk 24:39.
In fact, you are falling prey to one of the very first heresies; that Jesus was never a flesh and blood man but merely a spirit. The last Epistles cover this repeatedly.
But we all know your doctrine is superior to the explict words of your own lord and savior.
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Dropship
Well-Known Member
I don't give a rats derriere whether non-denoms or anybody else disagrees with me about anything, I simply strut my stuff regardless..:)
"The Lord made my mouth a sharp sword, an arrow in his quiver" (Isaiah 49:1-2)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Your interpretation of scripture colours your view of what it says....as does mine.
Jesus the man did not exist until his human birth, but he said...
“for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.” (John 6:38)
He also asked his apostles....”What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?” (John 6:62)
If this is not Jesus admitting to a pre-existence before his human birth, then I don’t know how he could have stated it more clearly.
If you don’t think that Jesus pre-existed as an independent entity, then those scriptures will not resonate with your view. You will feel free to ignore them, as you believe I am the ignoring the verse you quoted.
One of the most well known scriptures for Christians is John 3:16.....
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”
Where is the focus of this scripture for most people? “God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son”......what most people don’t read is that the being who became Jesus, was already God’s “only begotten son”.
In order to be “begotten” he had to have a ‘begetter’...one who existed before him and who cause his existence. Understanding HOW Jesus was God’s “only begotten son” when the scriptures plainly tell us that there are many “sons of God” in heaven, is important in identifying who Jesus was before his earthly mission. We know that Jehovah is the Creator, but as an Eternal Being, in his indefinite past he was not a Father, but decided at some point, and for his own reasons, to become one. His very first and only unique creation was his spirit son, whom we believe was Michael, who is described by Daniel as “the Great Prince who stand in behalf of Jehovah’s people”. Jesus has many names and many titles because he fulfills many roles.
John 1: 2-4....speaking of the Logos, it says....
“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
What is this “beginning” then, if the Creator is eternal (never having a beginning or end)?
The son of God was “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He has always been at his Father’s right hand. As his most trusted and faithful “servant”, he was the natural choice to become the ransomer for the human race. As a free willed agent however, he was as exposed to corruption as any other son of God, many of whom had proven that they would rather abuse their free will than obey their Creator. The devil knew this and tried his best to steer him away from his course, right after his baptism.
Colossians 1:15-17 also confirms his pre-human existence....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
If Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL creation”, then he has pre-existed “all things” both in heaven and on earth.
No, no, no, there can be no doubt that Jesus was 100% human because he had to be the equivalent of Adam in order to balance the scales of God’s perfect justice. Under God’s law when a man got into debt, the exact amount had to be paid to release him from servitude. If he could not pay, and died still owing, then the debt would be inherited by his offspring who would then need to work to pay it back.
Adam’s debt for his children was so huge that they were never going to be able to provide the means to cancel it...sin and death was the debt, but under Israel’s law, a kind benefactor could offer to pay the debt in full and release the children of the debtor. This is what Jesus became....the kind benefactor was Jehovah, who sent his precious son to pay Adam’s debt and release us from slavery to sin and death. Jesus willingly offered to do the job because he was a spirit like his Father, who was willing to “empty himself” to become a human being....not just any human being, but a sinless one like Adam was when he was created. God’s law was “an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”....Jesus sinless life cancelled the debt. His sinless life paid for a sinless life that Adam lost for all of us as his offspring.
So I can never understand how adjectives like “just” or “merely” can be applied to Jesus being a spirit. He was a spirit who volunteered to become a human in order to give his human life for ours. Once his mission was fully accomplished, he returned to his post.....at his Father’s right hand, waiting for the time when he would return as judge of all of us, which was after God had placed “all his enemies as a stool for his feet”. (Psalm 110:1-2)
Is that really a difficult concept?
Is there some reason why Jesus could not have existed as God’s “only begotten son” in heaven first?
He was not the first “son of God” to live as a human on earth. Adam was called a “son of God”. (Luke 3:38)
Please...enough with the sarcasm....just stick to the subject....OK?
I can see clearly who is not taking the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in their entirety. One misinterpreted scripture does not address this subject. There is so much more to the story....but you seem to not want to know....? I have to ask....why?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The question is....does God care about what you believe, if it is contrary to what his word teaches?
Nowhere does it say that scripture can mean whatever you want it to. The power of God’s spirit unites people...it doesn’t divide them. (1 Cor 1:10)
This scripture is applied to the one Isaiah prophesied about....the Messiah. It makes more sense when you read it with that in mind......sorry, but he isn’t talking about you or me.....
Rev 19:11-16 gives us the details concerning this sharp sword.... the final conquest of God’s appointed king.....an arrow in God’s quiver, ready to be drawn and fired at the appropriate time.
“I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”
Adventageous
Member
That's because the WTS confuses the words. The phrase in koine Greek doesn't mean to 'beget' (as in sire a birth, come into existence). It reads monogene (John 3:16), which means "only one of the same nature" as the Father. It has nothing to do with time, or coming into existence. The word deals with the nature, not time (chronology). There is another word in scripture which means "beget" (as in sire a birth, come into existence) and that word is not monogenes, as for instance see 1 John 5:18, "γεγεννημενος" (gegennemenos), "γεννηθεις" (gennetheis).
"the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18))
Mono
Gene
Mono is simply "one", "only".
Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.
Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.
It's used this way even coming down to our English:
"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - gene | Etymology, origin and meaning of gene by etymonline
That is why the Father is called:
monon alethinon theon, ton theon
And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:
monogene, logos en o theos
The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.
True - Synonyms of true | Thesaurus.com
Authentic - Synonyms of authentic | Thesaurus.com
Original - Synonyms of original | Thesaurus.com
It means underived.
So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.
Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.
In other words:
The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"
The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"
Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
This in NO WAY means he was a spirit being. You are subordinating explicit text to reading your doctrine into more vague passages. Jesus explicitly said he was not a ghost. That’s not good enough for you.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane said “The power of God’s spirit unites people...it doesn’t divide them. (1 Cor 1:10)” How can you believe that and at the same time believe you are part of a small group who have the truth and post the most divisive material on the forum?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The passages are not vague.....they are explicit statements.....now who is subordinating explicit texts to promote their own doctrine?
Jesus said....
“for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.” (John 6:38)
He also asked his apostles....”What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?” (John 6:62)
If Jesus said he came down from heaven and was ascending to where he was before....where was he before?
“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.” (John 1:2-4)
Speaking of the "Logos", John says that "this one was in the beginning with God" and that all things came into existence "through" the agency of the son....the Father's "Master Workman". (Proverbs 8:30-31)
Colossians 1:15-17....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
If Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL creation”, then he has pre-existed “all things” both "in heaven and on earth." Isn't that obvious? The scriptures speak for themselves Wrangler.....if you let them.
There is no scripture that even suggests that Jesus only existed as a thought process of God before he was born as a human. He is and always has been, at his Father's side; as the Father's only direct creation, which explains why he was "only begotten" (unique) among many "sons of God" from the beginning....always serving his Father's interests....always the faithful "servant" (Acts 4:27)
There is no such thing as a ghost.....in the spirit realm there are only Jehovah and his angels....all are free willed, as we are.....some rebelled along with satan, and became demons who can impersonate the dead, trying to convey to humans that we don't really die.....who was the first one to tell that lie? These are the only "ghosts".
But many angels stayed faithful to their God....and on earth this situation is also reflected in our choices. We can faithfully serve our God, in spite of the devil's machinations, or we can rebel against him and accept satan's lies as truth.....that's what the separating of the "sheep from the goats" is all about.
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