A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Aunty Jane]

We non-denoms have got Jesus as our teacher, so if you don't think he's good enough you better argue it out with him when you meet him..:)
Jesus said-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)

And yet there are literally thousands of “Christian” sects who all claim to heave Jesus as their teacher....who is right then? How do you decide?

As for needing somebody to explain him, nah, he's easy to understand..:)-
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)

The common people were not burdened down by the teachings of the Pharisees because if they were, they would not have followed Jesus in the first place. The Jewish leaders hated him because he exposed them for the hypocritical frauds that they were.

If Jesus was all we needed then what was the point of him having apostles? What was their purpose?
How much of our scripture was written by them? And whose teachings did they promote?....their own or Christ’s?

How did people hear Christ gladly after his death? Jesus taught the ones who in turn taught others.

Since it was Jesus himself who warned about the “weeds” that the devil would sown in the world, how do we identify the “wheat” from those “weeds”? That is like trying to find a diamond in a pile of broken glass....so what is the difference between a diamond in the rough and a piece of man made glass to the untrained eye?...very little.

A diamond is not as fragile as glass and it can cut through glass and other hard materials.

It’s sparkle is seen when it’s facets are revealed, and its beauty is supported by its strength and clarity.

What we have is the whole Bible.......Jesus himself used only the Hebrew Scriptures to prove his identity, so unless we see the Bible as a whole book of truth, we lose a good deal of the big picture. What God started in Genesis is restored in Revelation (Isaiah55:11).....everything in between is how it happens.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You JW's have got some oddball ideas, like he was crucified on a stake and not on a cross.
Careful, the naughty step..:)-
"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor 1:18)

There is no mention of a cross in the Greek scriptures.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sadly many churches and their leaders are like cuckoo's nests, so I'm sure God wouldn't want us to submit to them..:)
"He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm" (Proverbs 13:20)

Very true....but history tells us that humans are not terribly good at picking the cuckoos....what did they think of Jesus? Actions speak louder than words......and anyone can claim to be a disciple of Christ....thankfully Jesus knows who really is.

 

[ElieG12]

Sadly many churches and their leaders are like cuckoo's nests, so I'm sure God wouldn't want us to submit to them..:)
"He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm" (Proverbs 13:20)

You are filling this forum with your judgementalism ... Who did tell you you are the judge of Christians?
Take care of your own people.

 

[Dropship]

There is no mention of a cross in the Greek scriptures.

The JW's used to have the cross in the top left corner of some of their publications (below), but then decided they were wrong and banned the cross.
No offense but the JW's therefore sound like flip-floppers..;)

 

[Dropship]

You are filling this forum with your judgementalism ... Who did tell you you are the judge of Christians?
Take care of your own people.

I see myself as a good samaritan saving people from oddball notions and ideas; we could even say it's our duty,
Somebody's got to do it..
"Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Tim 2:23-26)
Paul used to correct people too-
"I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I won't spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others" (2 Cor 13:2)

 

[Wrangler]

No offense but the JW's therefore sound like flip-floppers..;)

Isn't that a risk we all take if we are open to new information and coming to different conclusions based on new information?

 

[Dropship]

The JW's used to have the cross in the top left corner of some of their publications (below), but then decided they were wrong and banned the cross.
No offense but the JW's therefore sound like flip-floppers..;)

View attachment 28085

Isn't that a risk we all take if we are open to new information and coming to different conclusions based on new information?

God and Jesus never change, it's only humans who flip and flop..:)-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Gal 1:6-9)
"Beware men who spoil you with enticing words, deceitful philosophy not after Christ" (Col 2:4-8 )
"Ignorant people distort things, to their own destruction" (2 Pet 3:16/17)
"Some shall believe seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1)
"Little children, let nobody lead you astray" (1 John 3:7)
"Ungodly men have slipped in among you" (Jude 4)
"Don't get carried away by strange teachings" (Heb 13:9)
"They want to win you over and alienate you from us" (Gal 4:17)
"False prophets will bring damnable heresies and false teachers" (2 Pet 2:1)
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Tim 4:3)
"Many deceiving antichrists are in the world" (2 John 1:7)
Jesus said:-"Many false prophets shall arise and deceive many" (Matt 24:11)

Hence the warning-

 

[Aunty Jane]

God and Jesus never change, it's only humans who flip and flop,

That’s true.....but unless you understand who “flip flopped” in the first place, a correction will not seem like one.

If what is false was presented as truth from our infancy, then someone comes along and shows you the real truth, what will be our first reaction?
Go back to the first century and see that Jesus ministry was one of correction.....he roundly denounced the religious leaders of his day and exposed their teachings as twisted and invalid. (Matthew 15: 7-9: Matthew 23:33) What was their reaction? They did not want to repent....they wanted to kill the one who was wounding their pride...to silence him in order to continue on in their wickedness.

hence these warnings..:)-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Gal 1:6-9)
"Beware men who spoil you with enticing words, deceitful philosophy not after Christ" (Col 2:4-8 )
"Ignorant people distort things, to their own destruction" (2 Pet 3:16/17)
"Some shall believe seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1)
"Little children, let nobody lead you astray" (1 John 3:7)
"Ungodly men have slipped in among you" (Jude 4)
"Don't get carried away by strange teachings" (Heb 13:9)
"They want to win you over and alienate you from us" (Gal 4:17)
"False prophets will bring damnable heresies and false teachers" (2 Pet 2:1)
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Tim 4:3)
"Many deceiving antichrists are in the world" (2 John 1:7)
Jesus said:-"Many false prophets shall arise and deceive many" (Matt 24:11)

Please apply these verses to Christendom.....which came into existence after Jesus and the apostles died, gradually bringing in beliefs and practices not known to the first Christians. This is what these verses were warning about because it was already happening back then. The “weeds” of Jesus’ parable were not sown recently. The great apostasy was already at work.
So, the deception took place a very long time ago. It was only at “the time of the end” that a cleansing was foretold for God’s worshippers....those who accepted the cleansing would be refined and impurities removed, but the “wicked” (those who rejected the cleansing to continue teaching the old lies,) would be given no insight or understanding. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

You have no idea of the number of beliefs and practices held in the divided churches of Christendom that have their origins in paganism. You were taught by your own teachers that these were legit. There is no such thing as “non-denominationalism”.....because that is just a convenient excuse to hold whatever beliefs you want....it doesn’t mean unity.....you just don’t openly fight over them.

And Jesus reminds us-
"Call nobody teacher except me" (Matt 23:8-10)

And yet Jesus himself appointed teachers.....I wonder why....? Could it be that without teachers to guide the flock, people would just believe whatever they wished. Since when has God ever left his people without teachers and shepherds? These were to keep the congregations united in one truth. (1 Cor 1:10) Are non-denominational Christians united in their beliefs? Do you all just read the Bible and come to your own conclusions? When has God ever said that this is the way to worship him?

Without the standard of one truth, people can believe whatever they like.....but it doesn’t make Joe Bloggs any more correct that Fred Grundy....because if they are both wrong, what was the point?

Agreeing to disagree is not Christianity. The truth is lost in a maze of opinions and “man made traditions” that have no meaning to God and are completely absent from scripture......but it seems to be preferred to adhering to things you don’t like, or don’t want to accept. This is the basis for our judgment.....we will all have the same judge who is looking for those who don’t deny the truth when they hear it.

Correction is hard because no one wants to admit that they might be wrong......it takes humility to accept something that is plainly revealed and to make an adjustment to what you believe. The opposite of humility of course, is pride, and humans are really bad at fighting it. What they want to believe becomes more important than what God wants to teach them.

There are only two roads, Dropship.....and we are all on either one or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

[Wrangler]

God and Jesus never change, it's only humans who flip and flop

Well that does not really answer my question. I don't think it is that humans flip flop but why. For instance, in the face of being sealed by the Holy Spirit, do you suppose an Atheist ought to continue to deny the existence of a God so he is not accused of flip flopping?

It takes humility, courage and maturity to publicly admit you've changed your position on a topic.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JW's used to have the cross in the top left corner of some of their publications (below), but then decided they were wrong and banned the cross.
No offense but the JW's therefore sound like flip-floppers..;)

As has been mentioned several times already, we are progressive in our beliefs, not regressive.
There were more important issues to be sorted out until we got to the “cross” which became a symbol of Christianity only in the 4th century because a pagan Roman Emperor claimed to see a vision with a cross and was told to conquer under this symbol.....but since we were not to make images to use in worship we can see that an idol was made of this symbol and its grubby origins predated Christianity by centuries.

Added to that is the fact that Christ at no time advocated violence towards our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44)
So to use an ancient pagan symbol as a banner for murderous conquest goes against everything Jesus taught.

The Greek word used to describe the instrument that was used to put Christ to death was a “stauros” which does not mean a “cross”, it means a single pole or upright stake. Besides which point, it is not the instrument used to put Christ to death that was important, but his death itself that paid the ransom.

If Jesus had been hanged, would we see gallows on church buildings or worn as jewellery.....would we see an effigy of Jesus swinging from the rope? I hope you see what God must see in this.....?

 

[Wrangler]

Added to that is the fact that Christ at no time advocated violence towards our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44)

Really? <sigh> So, your thoughts on him commanding the Apostles to sell their coat for a sword was ceremonial?

So to use an ancient pagan symbol as a banner for murderous conquest goes against everything Jesus taught.

There you go again, denying cultural appropriation.

Murderous conquest? The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)

The Crusades were a defensive war.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Really? <sigh> So, your thoughts on him commanding the Apostles to sell their coat for a sword was ceremonial?

Nope....sorry, you missed the point of Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords.....was it to defend their master? No! because "two swords" would not be "enough" to take on an armed band of Roman soldiers. Why would Jesus say two swords was "enough".....enough for what? Enough to fulfill the prophesy he referred to when he rebuked Peter for using his.

Jesus "said to them: ‘When I sent you forth without purse and food pouch and sandals, you did not want for anything, did you?’ They said: ‘No!’ Then he said to them: ‘But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch; and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. For I tell you that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, “And he was reckoned with lawless ones.” For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment.’ Then they said: ‘Lord, look! here are two swords.’ He said to them: ‘It is enough.’”....you see?....enough to fulfill the prophesy.......not enough for conflict with an armed mob.

There you go again, denying cultural appropriation.

Please find me "cultural appropriation" in the scriptures.....or even a principle that hinted at it.
God's laws to his people was NOT to "appropriate" what the nations did or believed. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

For God's servants, there was nothing to "appropriate" because God provided all that they needed as far as their knowledge and worship was concerned. When men "appropriated" various things from other cultures, it was always wrong in God's eyes because it was not prescribed by him....but became a "tradition of men".....something Jesus condemned. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Murderous conquest? The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)

The Crusades were a defensive war.

You miss the point as much as this guy does.....the crusades were murderous conquests, just as they were from Christendom's actions with the Spanish Conquistadors. Who was it that forced conversions to Roman Catholicism at the point of a sword, when conquering lands that were not their own? What about Britain? Whose lands did she conquer and bring in her own brand of apostate Christianity to the inhabitants.....where did the church of England originate? Do you see how far back the rot goes? Nations cannot use God as an excuse to steal someone else's territory, and then claim a victory for God if they won.

Are there any "good guys" in these conflicts? Don't you understand that Israel's wars were only in defense of their God-given land....no other conflict fought by Israel was sanctioned by God, and they lost many battles because they were fought over power not over the God-given land that was gifted to them.

How can you have God's sanction to fight a war over land that you stole from someone else? I don't care what god you think you are defending.....it isn't the true God who does not recognize nations as his own....none of them can claim to be "Christian" if they are doing what Christ commanded them NOT to do.....are you getting this yet? or is your patriotism getting in the way....?

 

[Keturah]

LET GOD BE TRUTH AND EVERY MAN / WOMAN A LIAR.

WE SHOULD HAVE NO NEED THAT ANY MAN / WOMAN TEACH US GOD'S TRUTH, ONLY HIS SPIRIT AND THE SPIRIT REVEALS WHAT HE HAS SEEN AND HEARD IN THE HEAVENLY REALM.

 

[Wrangler]

Nope....sorry, you missed the point of Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords

Nope …. sorry, you missed the point of Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords. It wasn’t ceremonial.

Added to that is the fact that Christ at no time advocated violence towards our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44)

Of course Jesus was advocated violence towards our enemies!

What was that incident if flipping over tables and whipping everyone out of there? Another great example of Christ not merely advocating but initiating violence towards our enemies.

In Revelation, he returns not to chit chat with our enemies or offend them using pronouns they don’t use. He came to wipe out the largest army of all time.

The feminized idea that Jesus was a non-violent pacifist bears no resemblance to the Jesus in Scripture who conquers the largest Army ever, Satan and death itself.

 

[Wrangler]

Please find me "cultural appropriation" in the scriptures.....or even a principle that hinted at it.

No problem.

1st, just because a real phenomena is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture does not mean it does not exist. Strep throat, PTSD, the city of Cleveland and quantum physics are not in Scripture, yet exist.

2nd, diaspora Jews who did not even speak Hebrew, the Greek speaking Jews demonstrate cultural appropriation in the scriptures.

3rd, another example of ‘cultural appropriation" in the scriptures is one of the biggest conflicts of the earliest church. The idea that Jewish Christian’s were demanding Gentile Christian’s be circumcised is all about cultural appropriation.

 

[Wrangler]

You miss the point as much as this guy does.....the crusades were murderous conquests

That’s not a point. That’s an opinion. A politically correct opinion of many but wrong nonetheless.

The crusades were a defensive ear as the book and the data based graph demonstrate.

 

[Wrangler]

Nations cannot use God as an excuse to steal someone else's territory, and then claim a victory for God if they won.

You obviously don’t know the Bible nearly as well as you think you do. I honestly cannot believe you said this!

My Bible states in the introduction to Joshua the Conquest of Cana. This is EXACTLY using God as an excuse to steal someone else's territory, and then claim a victory for God when they won. And there are many other such stories!

There is so much conquering and blood shed, in God’s name, ordered by God, one cannot miss it! You must be willfully ignorant - even if the term is not in Scripture.

Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities blasted out of existence by missiles from heaven. And except for 8 people, God wiped out everyone on Earth.

God himself has the title of LORD of Heaven’s Armies. Again, this is not ceremonial. Who is our Father? Who are we supposed to emulate? The conquering LORD of Heaven’s Armies, that’s who.

 

[Wrangler]

Are there any "good guys" in these conflicts?

Yes. There are good guys in every conflict.

 

[Wrangler]

Don't you understand that Israel's wars were only in defense of their God-given land

Wrong. Totally wrong. Invading numerous nations who never attacked you is not defensive. It’s certainly less defensive than the Crusades.