A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[The Learner]

Projecting.

And I have quoted Scripture - just not the Scripture you claim I quote.

It’s obvious to anyone watching our exchange that you are not answering questions.

list those questions, friend

 

[The Learner]

Not Jesus! Perhaps Isaiah’s own son, who’s son ‘Is’ born - not will be in 6 centuries.

Isaiah 7

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Trouble With Aram​

7 Ahaz was the son of Jotham, who was the son of Uzziah. Rezin was the king of Aram, Pekah son of Remaliah[a] was the king of Israel. When Ahaz was king of Judah, Rezin and Pekah went up to Jerusalem to attack it, but they were not able to defeat the city.[b]
2 The family of David received a message that said, “The armies of Aram and Ephraim have joined together in one camp.” When King Ahaz heard this message, he and the people became frightened. They shook with fear like trees of the forest blowing in the wind.
3 Then the Lord told Isaiah, “You and your son Shear Jashub[c] should go out and talk to Ahaz. Go to the place where the water flows into the Upper Pool,[d] on the street that leads up to Laundryman’s Field.
4 “Tell Ahaz, ‘Be careful, but be calm. Don’t be afraid. Don’t let those two men, Rezin and Remaliah’s son,[e] frighten you! They are like two burning sticks. They might be hot now, but soon they will be nothing but smoke. Rezin, Aram, and Remaliah’s son became angry 5 and made plans against you. They said, 6 “Let’s go fight against Judah and divide it among ourselves. Then we will make Tabeel’s son the new king of Judah.”’”
7 But the Lord God says, “Their plan will not succeed. It will not happen 8 because Aram depends on its capital Damascus, and Damascus is led by its weak king Rezin. And don’t worry about Ephraim. Within 65 years it will be crushed, no longer a nation. 9 Ephraim depends on its capital Samaria, and Samaria is led by Remaliah’s son. So you have no reason to fear. Believe this, or you will not survive.”

Immanuel—God Is With Us​

10 Then the Lord spoke to Ahaz again 11 and said, “Ask for a sign from the Lord your God to prove to yourself that this is true. You can ask for any sign you want. The sign can come from a place as deep as Sheol[f] or as high as the skies.[g]”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask for a sign as proof. I will not test the Lord.”
13 Then Isaiah said, “Family of David, listen very carefully! Is it not enough that you would test the patience of humans? Will you now test the patience of my God? 14 But the Lord will still show you this sign:
The young woman is pregnant[h]
and will give birth to a son.
She will name him Immanuel.[i]
15 He will eat milk curds and honey[j]
as he learns to choose good and refuse evil.
16 But before he is old enough to make that choice,
the land of the two kings you fear will be empty.
17 “But the Lord will bring troubled times to you. These troubles will be worse than anything that has happened since the time Israel separated from Judah. This will happen to your people and to your father’s family when God brings the king of Assyria to fight against you.
18 “At that time the Lord will call for the ‘Fly’ that is now near the streams of Egypt, and he will call for the ‘Bee’ that is now in the country of Assyria. Those enemies will come to your country. 19 They will settle in the deep valleys and in the caves, by the thornbushes and watering holes. 20 The Lord will use Assyria to punish Judah. Assyria will be hired and used like a razor to shave off Judah’s beard and to remove the hair from his head and body.[k]
21 “At that time someone might keep only one young cow and two sheep alive. 22 But there will be enough milk for them to eat milk curds. In fact, everyone left in the country will eat milk curds and honey. 23 There are now fields that have 1000 grapevines, and each grapevine is worth 1000 pieces of silver. But those fields will be covered with weeds and thorns. 24 That land will be wild and used only as a hunting ground where people go with bows and arrows. 25 People once worked the soil and grew food on these hills, but at that time they will not go there, because the fields will be covered with weeds and thorns. It will be a place where cattle graze and sheep wander.”

 

[The Learner]

Isaiah 8

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Assyria Is Coming Soon​

8 The Lord told me, “Get a large scroll,[a] and use an ordinary pen[b] to write these words: ‘This is for Maher Shalal Hash Baz.’[c]”
2 I found some men who could be trusted to serve as witnesses: Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah. They watched me write those words. 3 Then I went to my wife, the woman prophet. She became pregnant and had a son. The Lord told me, “Name the boy Maher Shalal Hash Baz.” 4 He said that because before the boy learns to say “Mama” and “Daddy,” God will take all the wealth and riches from Damascus[d] and Samaria and give them to the king of Assyria.
5 The Lord spoke to me again. 6 He said, “These people[e] refuse to accept the slow-moving waters of Shiloah.[f] They prefer Rezin and Remaliah’s son.” 7 But the Lord will bring the king of Assyria and all his power against them. The Assyrians will come like their swift moving river, like water that rises and spills over its banks. 8 This water will be like a flash flood as it passes through Judah. It will rise to Judah’s throat and almost drown him.
But he will spread his wings over your whole country, Immanuel.[g]
9 All you nations, prepare for war.
You will be defeated.
Listen, all you faraway countries!
Prepare for battle.
You will be defeated.
10 Make your plans for the fight.
Your plans will be defeated.
Give orders to your armies,
but your orders will be useless,
because God is with us![h]

Warnings to Isaiah​

11 The Lord spoke to me with his great power and warned[i] me not to be like these people. He said, 12 “Don’t think there is a plan against you just because the people say there is. Don’t be afraid of what they fear. Don’t let them frighten you!”
13 The Lord All-Powerful is the one you should fear. He is the one you should respect.[j] He is the one who should frighten you. 14 If you people would respect him, he would be a safe place[k] for you. But you don’t respect him, so he is like a stone that you stumble over. He is a rock that makes both families of Israel fall. He has become a trap that all the people of Jerusalem will fall into. 15 (Many people will trip over this rock. They will fall and be broken. They will be caught in the trap.)
16 The Lord said, “Write this agreement.[l] Tie it up and seal it so that it cannot be changed. Give these teachings to my followers for safekeeping.”
17 The Lord has turned away from the family of Jacob.
But I will wait for him.
I trust that he will come to save us.
18 Here I am with the children the Lord has given me. We are here as signs from the Lord All-Powerful, who lives on Mount Zion. He is using us to show his plans for the people of Israel.
19 The people will say, “Go to the fortunetellers and wizards who mumble and chirp like birds. Ask them what to do.” But I say, “Shouldn’t people go to their God for help? Why go to the dead to get help for the living?” 20 You should follow the teachings and the agreement.[m] I swear, if you follow those other things, there is no future for you. 21 When the enemy comes, there will be hard times and hunger. And when he becomes hungry, he will become angry. He will say curses in the name of his king and his gods. Then he will lift his head upwards like a roaring lion. 22 And when the captives turn their faces to the ground, there is only a depressing darkness closing in—the dark sadness of people forced to leave their country.

 

[The Learner]

Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will be pregnant and will give birth to a son. They will name him Immanuel.” (Immanuel means “God with us.”)

 

[The Learner]

Yes, Ok. Now about the answers to my questions.

Friend, we all believe Jesus is full God and fully Man. It was his human side that grew.

Luke 2:52
As Jesus grew taller, he continued to grow in wisdom. God was pleased with him and so were the people who knew him.

 

[Wrangler]

list those questions, friend

See below. Numerous other posts are similar.

@Jack

Everything belongs to God, and all things were created by his power. So God did the right thing when he made Jesus perfect by suffering
Hebrews 2:10

QUESTIONS
1. Notice how nothing belongs to Jesus? According to the text, everything belongs to someone else.
2. To who does everything belong?

3. Notice how Jesus is not said to be eternally perfect?

(He changed over time. He was made perfect. This proves Jesus' nature is NOT that of an unchanging deity)​

4. Also, notice how Jesus did not make himself perfect?
5. Who made Jesus perfect by suffering?

Perhaps another point is that God cannot suffer for he is all powerful. Further proof Jesus is not who you say he is.

 

[Wrangler]

Isaiah 7

Easy-to-Read Version

Rather than copy and paste verses, please provide conclusion of your analysis relative to the discussion. Thanks!

 

[The Learner]

there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840.
And, “God is my King.” - http://www.jhom.com/calendar/sivan/symbolism.htm .

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.
....

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"
And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

AMPC
For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.

DARBY
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

DRA
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

OJB
For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Possessor of Eternity), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).

WYC
Forsooth a little child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and princehood is made on his shoulder (But a little child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and princehood is placed upon his shoulders); and his name shall be called Wonderful, A counsellor, God, Strong, Father of the world to coming, A prince of peace [and his name shall be called Marvellous, Counsellor, God, Strong, Father of the world to come, Prince of peace].

 

[Wrangler]

Friend, we all believe Jesus is full God and fully Man. It was his human side that grew.

Not I. The son of God is what Scripture says of Jesus. That’s good enough for me.

Not sure why others feel compelled to read into unitarian text that he’s not merely something else but perniciously ‘fully’ something Scripture does not teach.

Anti-Scriptural is no way to rely on Scripture. If Scripture says something is a bird, it’s best to leave it at that. There is no reason to perniciously add “fully” reptile and “fully” bird. No reason.

 

[The Learner]

Jesus did rebuke Thomas. In John 20 Thomas had plainly stated he would never believe unless he saw the resurrected Jesus and then Jesus said that only those who have not seen, yet believe, are blessed. That means Thomas isn't blessed.

John 20
24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

That's my point actually. Jesus is the authority not Thomas. Please substantiate your allegations about what Jesus taught regarding his deity. Where did Jesus teach he is God?

You seemed to have read it more than I have. Are you a JW?


John 17:3 and Ephesians 4:6 say the One Singular God is the Father.


Not according to Scripture.

John 20

English Standard Version Anglicised

​

The Resurrection​

20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going towards the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus'[a] head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went back to their homes.

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene​

11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 Having said this, she turned round and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic,[b] “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples​

19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jesus and Thomas​

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin,[c] was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The Purpose of This Book​

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[The Learner]

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation with Jehovah’s Witnesses for some reason……every person who disagrees with you is not a JW, I assure you. If you could just stretch your imagination a little bit you will see that people have a wide variety of beliefs and still call themselves “Christians”……do you call yourself a Christian? What does God call you?…….you see, it’s not what we call ourselves that matters….it’s what God calls us that counts. Right?

There is only one truth Jack…..are you sure that you have it right…..who told you that what you believe is true? When Jesus comes to judge mankind what will he say?

Matt 7:21-23…KJV…
”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

You need to read that carefully because it is in your own KJV language…..

Not everyone who calls Jesus their “Lord” is bound for “the kingdom of heaven”…only those “doing the will of the Father” will have that privilege. What does it mean to “do the will of the Father” Jack? Can you tell me?
Who are the “many” who do all these things “in his name”, believing that these kinds of things confirm their Christian faith?…..and what are these “wonderful works”?…”casting out devils”? and “prophesying”?

What he says to them next is shocking, because they cannot believe what he says about these wonderful works that they have done “in his name”……”I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY”. Ouch!!

Do you see the confidence with which they appeal to him as if he has somehow made a mistake concerning the expression of their Christian faith? How many people believe exactly what you do?

“I NEVER KNEW YOU” means that he has never recognized their “Christianity” as genuine. In fact he sees it as “works of iniquity”. What is iniquity, Jack?

According to Strong’s Concordance it means…

1. the condition of without law
   
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness”.

So these ones are breaking God’s laws but still professing to be Christians…..what laws could they be breaking even out of ignorance? Obviously they have no idea that that they are doing anything wrong. Yet Jesus rejects them….do you know why?

What do you think? How do you explain that?

Yahweeh calls me one of his sons, Daniel Marsh

 

[The Learner]

Not only that, he has no grasp of logic whatsoever! A fallacy of argumentation is called Poisoning The Well. In his mind, he need not refute claims he does not agree with using facts, logic or sound principles.

All he need do is claim "that is a JW argument" as though slander were sufficient for one to deny the validity. Imagine you or @Keiw retoring, "That'a non-JW argument." Phew. Case closed. It's kind of funny when you put the shoe on the other foot.

To me, Jack is like the comic relief characer in so many movies, like Gimli in Lord of the Rings. I can always count on a laugh when I see one of his posts.

View attachment 46000

good joke pic

 

[MonoBiblical]

About Isaiah 9:6

 

[Keiw]

Not only that, he has no grasp of logic whatsoever! A fallacy of argumentation is called Poisoning The Well. In his mind, he need not refute claims he does not agree with using facts, logic or sound principles.

All he need do is claim "that is a JW argument" as though slander were sufficient for one to deny the validity. Imagine you or @Keiw retorting, "That'a non-JW argument." Phew. Case closed. It's kind of funny when you put the shoe on the other foot.

To me, Jack is like the comic relief character in so many movies, like Gimli in Lord of the Rings. I can always count on a laugh when I see one of his posts.

View attachment 46000

Jack is mislead. Many are on earth.

 

[face2face]

About Isaiah 9:6

View attachment 46007

Any thoughts on the "shall be called?"

 

[face2face]

I am yet to see a Trinitarian adequately believe or explain this.

As Christ said: "I can of mine own self do nothing". John 5:30

Somewhere between post #2055 & #2056 is a truth which is not answered by imported doctrine.

I'm guessing Isaiah 9:7 might help

 

[face2face]

John 5:43 - what was wrong with Jesus' own name?

Sorry, I'll stop now.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Any thoughts on the "shall be called?"

I do. Most stories have a beginning, middle and end or past, current and future.

Given the context of a child who is born at the time of the writing, you know the "shall be called" does not refer to centuries future but within the normal lifetime of a person at the time of the writing.

Also, I think we have to admit, the wording of expressions in different languages of ancient times is different from ours. We say today that he raised the flag. We don't say he is risen (the flag). We say today the child was born at 2 AM. We don't say the child is born in the past.

 

[Wrangler]

I am yet to see a Trinitarian adequately believe or explain this.

As Christ said: "I can of mine own self do nothing". John 5:30

Can't wait to see @Jack knock it out of the park.

 

[face2face]

How is it possible for Christ to bear the title, "everlasting Father" in the Kingdom Age, and not be God Himself?

1. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can immediately think of two.

Please provide quotations to support your claim.

Enjoy

F2F