A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Jack]

And yet Jesus said the Father is the only true God. Words have meaning and Jesus was right wasn't he?

Yes they do. "He who has seen Me has seen the Father;"

Now that's rare for someone to actually try to spin it into Thomas being blessed. Thomas, one who hadn't seen, was not blessed for requiring evidence of Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was not blessed. See below.

Then why didn't Jesus REBUKE Thomas for calling Jesus "My Lord and my God"? He would have SEVERELY rebuke Thomas!

John 20
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Didn't say "you" are God and it wouldn't matter anyway. Thomas isn't an authority on the deity of Jesus. Why did Jesus never say he is God?

Oh really? Jesus taught Thomas personally! What you YOUR qualifications? None maybe?

Subjective translation. Same exact words in their plural form appear in Ezekiel 32:21 and they are not "mighty God" in English.

Even the JW bible says "Mighty God"!

What's your point?

You don't know what SINGULAR means? It means they are one, just like Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness!

Father and Son! Jesus is God the Creator!

 

[Jack]

No, he did not.

Yes he did.

John 21:17
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

ONLY God knows all things!

No, you did not.

You cited Col 1 that clearly teaches that Jesus is God the Creator.

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

That could ONLY refer to God!

I did not quote Scripture.

See above which you cited.

Since you mention it, you fail to realize Jesus is not even referred to in that chapter.

What??? Then Who is this male child, born, called "Mighty God"?

It shows how desperate you are to manufacture "support." Compare to Mark 1:1 Jesus is the son of God. Period. Do you believe Mark 1:1?

Why don't you quote Scripture? You TOTALLY evaded Scriptures I cited!!!

 

[Jack]

Emmanuel is the name of an activity, not Jesus. Should I name you the God is with us. That would totally absurd.

No Scripture?

 

[Jack]

@Jack

Everything belongs to God, and all things were created by his power. So God did the right thing when he made Jesus perfect by suffering
Hebrews 2:10

QUESTIONS
1. Notice how nothing belongs to Jesus? According to the text, everything belongs to someone else.
2. To who does everything belong?

3. Notice how Jesus is not said to be eternally perfect?

(He changed over time. He was made perfect. This proves Jesus' nature is NOT that of an unchanging deity)​

4. Also, notice how Jesus did not make himself perfect?
5. Who made Jesus perfect by suffering?

Perhaps another point is that God cannot suffer for he is all powerful. Further proof Jesus is not who you say he is.

You already admitted Jesus is God!

Colossians 1:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

 

[MonoBiblical]

No Scripture?

'The god was with them' does not mean Yeshua, he saves.

 

[Wrangler]

Why don't you quote Scripture? You TOTALLY evaded Scriptures I cited!!!

Projecting.

And I have quoted Scripture - just not the Scripture you claim I quote.

It’s obvious to anyone watching our exchange that you are not answering questions.

 

[Jack]

'The god was with them' does not mean Yeshua, he saves.

Evasive!

 

[Jack]

Projecting.

And I have quoted Scripture - just not the Scripture you claim I quote.

It’s obvious to anyone watching our exchange that you are not answering questions.

How ironic! Who is this male child born in Isaiah called "Mighty God" and EVERLASTING FATHER?

 

[Wrangler]

How ironic! Who is this male child born in Isaiah called "Mighty God" and EVERLASTING FATHER?

Not Jesus! Perhaps Isaiah’s own son, who’s son ‘Is’ born - not will be in 6 centuries.

 

[Jack]

Not Jesus! Perhaps Isaiah’s own son, who’s son ‘Is’ born - not will be in 6 centuries.

Isaiah's son is "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father"? Are you sure you're not JW?

 

[Wrangler]

Isaiah's son is

Yes, Ok. Now about the answers to my questions.

@Jack

Everything belongs to God, and all things were created by his power. So God did the right thing when he made Jesus perfect by suffering
Hebrews 2:10

QUESTIONS
1. Notice how nothing belongs to Jesus? According to the text, everything belongs to someone else.
2. To who does everything belong?

3. Notice how Jesus is not said to be eternally perfect?

(He changed over time. He was made perfect. This proves Jesus' nature is NOT that of an unchanging deity)​

4. Also, notice how Jesus did not make himself perfect?
5. Who made Jesus perfect by suffering?

Perhaps another point is that God cannot suffer for he is all powerful. Further proof Jesus is not who you say he is.

 

[Jack]

Yes,

Isaiah's son is "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father? It's very difficult to take you seriously!

Ok. Now about the answers to my questions.

Scripture please. Are you JW?

 

[tigger 2]

Isaiah's son is "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father"? Are you sure you're not JW?

there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840.
And, “God is my King.” - http://www.jhom.com/calendar/sivan/symbolism.htm .

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.
....

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"
And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

 

[Jack]

there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840.
And, “God is my King.” - http://www.jhom.com/calendar/sivan/symbolism.htm .

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.
....

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"
And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

That's a JW argument. "The Bible doesn't mean what it says"!

 

[MonoBiblical]

Evasive!

No, just fact and you know that it is true.

 

[Jack]

No, just fact and you know that it is true.

So lay the FACT on me. How about some Scripture?

 

[MonoBiblical]

So lay the FACT on me. How about some Scripture?

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
καὶ καλέσουσιν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ

καλέω to call is not the same as ὀνίνημι to name. They are the noun form ονομα, for ὀνίνημι, means means to name.

G2564 - kaleō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2564 - καλέω kaléō, kal-eh'-o; akin to the base of ; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

www.blueletterbible.org

G3685 - oninēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3685 - ὀνίνημι onínēmi, on-in'-ay-mee; a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb ( ὄνομαι ónomai, to slur); for which another prolonged form ( ὀνάω onáō) is used as an alternate in some tenses (unless indeed it be identical with the base of through the idea of notoriety); to gratify...

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Runningman]

Yes they do. "He who has seen Me has seen the Father;"

Then why didn't Jesus REBUKE Thomas for calling Jesus "My Lord and my God"? He would have SEVERELY rebuke Thomas!

Jesus did rebuke Thomas. In John 20 Thomas had plainly stated he would never believe unless he saw the resurrected Jesus and then Jesus said that only those who have not seen, yet believe, are blessed. That means Thomas isn't blessed.

John 20
24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Oh really? Jesus taught Thomas personally! What you YOUR qualifications? None maybe?

That's my point actually. Jesus is the authority not Thomas. Please substantiate your allegations about what Jesus taught regarding his deity. Where did Jesus teach he is God?

Even the JW bible says "Mighty God"!

You seemed to have read it more than I have. Are you a JW?

You don't know what SINGULAR means? It means they are one, just like Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness!

John 17:3 and Ephesians 4:6 say the One Singular God is the Father.

Father and Son! Jesus is God the Creator!

Not according to Scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's a JW argument. "The Bible doesn't mean what it says"!

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation with Jehovah’s Witnesses for some reason……every person who disagrees with you is not a JW, I assure you. If you could just stretch your imagination a little bit you will see that people have a wide variety of beliefs and still call themselves “Christians”……do you call yourself a Christian? What does God call you?…….you see, it’s not what we call ourselves that matters….it’s what God calls us that counts. Right?

There is only one truth Jack…..are you sure that you have it right…..who told you that what you believe is true? When Jesus comes to judge mankind what will he say?

Matt 7:21-23…KJV…
”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

You need to read that carefully because it is in your own KJV language…..

Not everyone who calls Jesus their “Lord” is bound for “the kingdom of heaven”…only those “doing the will of the Father” will have that privilege. What does it mean to “do the will of the Father” Jack? Can you tell me?
Who are the “many” who do all these things “in his name”, believing that these kinds of things confirm their Christian faith?…..and what are these “wonderful works”?…”casting out devils”? and “prophesying”?

What he says to them next is shocking, because they cannot believe what he says about these wonderful works that they have done “in his name”……”I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY”. Ouch!!

Do you see the confidence with which they appeal to him as if he has somehow made a mistake concerning the expression of their Christian faith? How many people believe exactly what you do?

“I NEVER KNEW YOU” means that he has never recognized their “Christianity” as genuine. In fact he sees it as “works of iniquity”. What is iniquity, Jack?

According to Strong’s Concordance it means…

1. the condition of without law
   
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness”.
   

So these ones are breaking God’s laws but still professing to be Christians…..what laws could they be breaking even out of ignorance? Obviously they have no idea that that they are doing anything wrong. Yet Jesus rejects them….do you know why?

What do you think? How do you explain that?

 

[Wrangler]

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation with Jehovah’s Witnesses for some reason……every person who disagrees with you is not a JW, I assure you.

Not only that, he has no grasp of logic whatsoever! A fallacy of argumentation is called Poisoning The Well. In his mind, he need not refute claims he does not agree with using facts, logic or sound principles.

All he need do is claim "that is a JW argument" as though slander were sufficient for one to deny the validity. Imagine you or @Keiw retorting, "That'a non-JW argument." Phew. Case closed. It's kind of funny when you put the shoe on the other foot.

To me, Jack is like the comic relief character in so many movies, like Gimli in Lord of the Rings. I can always count on a laugh when I see one of his posts.