A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Aunty Jane]

Lookie here.... From the Watchtower Library.... "THEIR" bible.....

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/40/28#study=discover
Mathew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.”

Just to expound on this statement…..”their Bible” says what your Bible does…..but trinitarians seem to ignore the phrase “in the name of”…..which is not stating that God exists in three forms….but is the culmination of the role that these have played in the end result of baptism. God and Christ and the holy spirit have all played a part in bringing that soul to baptism. To read a godhead into that statement is to read more into it than is actually says. By implying that the three mentioned together = a godhead, is pure suggestion.

”In the name of” is acting under the authority of the one named. It is the Father who authorized the son, which, if he was God, would be ridiculous. (Matt 28:18) Why does God need to “give” his other ‘self’ any authority? He already has “all authority”.

What is the role of the holy spirit throughout the Bible? Where in the OT does it ever call God’s spirit “he”? Did Jesus teach about a different holy spirit? Greek grammar is at work in the NT because God’s spirit is called a “helper” (Paraclete) which in Greek is masculine gender and has the appropriate pronoun “he” when speaking about the “Paraclete”. Spirits have no gender.

A bit of study, instead of just relying on translators of one’s favorite version to get it right, is putting yourself under their misapprehensions, mistranslations and misinterpretations. Don’t you step back and see what a divided mess Christendom is…? Can God ever be the author of confusion? Satan is that author.

The trinity is a Catholic invention….so we would invite anyone to see for themselves that nothing formulated by the Catholic church is ever the truth, but a product of the “weeds” whom Jesus told us would grow seeds of deceptive untruths under the devil’s influence….these seeds were not sown recently.

We as Jehovah’s Witnesses, do nothing but study the Bible. Every meeting we hold is about Bible study. But we study the whole Bible and it’s interconnectivity. Unlike theology, we don’t just hammer our own cherry picked verses, but offer a wider view of all things based on what the entirety of scripture teaches. The Bible cannot contradict itself, but Christendom’s teachings contradict the Scriptures in so many ways.

We have no rituals, or repetitive prayers, or anything that smacks of Catholicism’s version of Christianity because we see nothing true in any of its teachings, which for the most part Protestantism has retained for some reason that defies explanation.….except for the obvious one.

There are only “wheat“ and “weeds” in the world at this crucial time in history, and unless we are taught ‘spiritual botany’ we can mistake one for the other. The deceiver is good at making lies seem like truth and vice versa……look what he did to Jesus and his disciples…

When Paul was arrested he was taken under guard to Rome where he requested an audience with “the principle men of the Jews”, to plead his case. (Acts 28:17-22)
Their reply was…..”But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere.”

If only more people would actually give us an opportunity to explain our position, they would see that what is said about us is false. Christendom’s clergy have inspired hatred against us for the same reasons that the Pharisees inspired hatred for Christ and his disciples. They did not like the fact that Jesus denounced their practices and adopted traditions as worthy of “Gehenna”. (John 15:18-21; Matt 23:33)

We can give scriptural evidence for all that we believe by citing other scripture to support our position. We rely on biblical statements rather than inferred supposition, which is often read into scripture by those who want God’s word to support what they want to believe. Believing something does not make it true.

Wonder if JWs are all reformed Catholics....? Used to be that RCCs were not to read the bible because it would be explained "correctly" in mass... I have Catholic family who never owned a bible.

There you have it….no JW would believe a thing unless it was in God’s word, clearly stated. We imitate the Beroeans who were Jews, but not of the ilk of the Pharisees. Instead of dismissing what Paul taught without investigation, they examined the scriptures for themselves to make sure that what he taught was from God’s word. (Acts 17:10-11)
We invite anyone to do the same.

 

[Aunty Jane]

They have much invested in socialism.

Would you like to explain that statement please…..?

 

[The Learner]

I didn't mention all of the Gnostic writers. I don't believe in Gnosticism, but for all intents and purposes they were not Trinitarian. There is plenty of evidence they were right around there at the beginning of the early church.

Being a former Gnostic(Christain Science), they did not even believe in Matter, Sin or God of the OT.

 

[The Learner]

There is good evidence that John 1 and Col 1 are being misunderstood. For example, in Acts 4:24-27, it's evident that John and Peter did not believe Jesus was involved in creation, by their prayer to God, the Creator of heaven and earth who is the Sovereign Lord. They only briefly mentioned Jesus was His servant. That's it.

Acts 4:24-27 does not rule out Jesus as a creator like we know from John 1 and Col 1.

2 Peter 3:1-7
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Will Come Again
3 My friends, this is the second letter I have written to you. I wrote both letters to you to help your honest minds remember something. 2 I want you to remember the words that the holy prophets spoke in the past. And remember the command that our Lord and Savior gave us. He gave us that command through your apostles.

3 It is important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. People will laugh at you. They will live following the evil they want to do. 4 They will say, “Jesus promised to come again. Where is he? Our fathers have died, but the world continues the way it has been since it was made.”

5 But these people don’t want to remember what happened long ago. The skies were there, and God made the earth from water and with water. All this happened by God’s word. 6 Then the world was flooded and destroyed with water. 7 And that same word of God is keeping the skies and the earth that we have now. They are being kept to be destroyed by fire. They are kept for the day of judgment and the destruction of all people who are against God.

2 Peter 1:1

Easy-to-Read Version

​

1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.

 

[The Learner]

The Lord in Psalm 110:1, la·ḏō·nî as you rightly pointed out, refers to a human. This is one of those very rare words where there isn't a single exception to it being used of anyone other than humans in all of Scripture.

The LORD speaking to the Lord in Psalm 110:1 is God speaking to the Son in Hebrews 1:13:

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 1

Easy-to-Read Version

​

God Has Spoken Through His Son​

1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.
5 God never said this to any of the angels:
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”
God also never said about an angel,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my son.”
6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world,[b] he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 This is what God said about the angels:
“He changes his angels into winds[d]
and his servants into flaming fire.”
8 But this is what he said about his Son:
“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
So God, your God, has chosen you,
giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”
10 God also said,
“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
and your hands made the sky.
11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
and your life will never end.”
13 And God never said this to an angel:
“Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your power.[e]”
14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

Footnotes​

1. Hebrews 1:3 right side The place of honor and authority (power).
2. Hebrews 1:6 world This may mean the world into which Jesus was born (see Lk. 2:1-14), or it may have the same meaning as in Heb. 2:5—the world to come, to which the risen Christ is presented as king (see Php. 2:9-11).
3. Hebrews 1:6 “Let … him” These words are found in Deut. 32:43 in the ancient Greek version and in a Hebrew scroll from Qumran.
4. Hebrews 1:7 winds This can also mean “spirits.”
5. Hebrews 1:13 until I put … power Literally, “until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

 

[The Learner]

Both words are in the subjective nominative case. ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. Plus, the genitive and article proceed each noun. It is definitely not a singular noun phrase. The KAI separates the subjects agreeing with many other scriptures which do this.

God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.

Thomas answered and said to him, “My lord and my God

https://doxa.billmounce.com/bbg3_answers.pdf

26 ·kai Eightoktō dayshēmera latermeta hisautos disciplesmathētēs wereeimi inesō the house againpalin, ·ho andkai ThomasThōmas was withmeta themautos. Althoughkleiō theho doorsthura were lockedkleiō, JesusIēsous cameerchomai ·ho andkai stoodhistēmi ineis theirho midstmesos andkai saidlegō, “Peaceeirēnē be with youhymeis.”

John 20:24-29 NET;MOUNCE - The Response of Thomas - Now Thomas - Bible Gateway

The Response of Thomas - Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, “We have

www.biblegateway.com

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3259477

(2) ARTICULAR Luke 8:54 hJ paißç, e[geire. Child, rise. John 20:28 Qwmaçß ei\pen aujtwç/, oJ kurv ioßv mou kai©oJ qeoßv mou. Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Heb 1:8 pro©ß de© to©n uiJovn, oJ qrovnoß sou, oJ qeoßv , eijß to©n aijwçna touç aijwçnoß But to the Son [he declares], “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever” There are three syntactical possibilities for qeovß here: as a subject (“God is your throne”), predicate nom. (“your throne is God”), and nom. for voc. (as in the translation above).13 8. Nominative of Exclamation ExSyn 59–6

https://www.obinfonet.ro/docs/gk/resgk/wallace-basic-nt-greek.pdf

Purpose and Meaning of “Ego Eimi” in the Gospel of John

The following information sheet was first published around 1990. Purpose and Meaning of "Ego Eimi" in the Gospel of John In Reference to the Deity of Christ

www.aomin.org

 

[The Learner]

Check out Exodus 7:1, Exodus 22:20, Judges 6:31, Judges 11:24, and 1 Samuel 5:7. Elohim can refer to single beings. Why elohim is a plural word and yet YHWH is clear about being a singular person who created alone is because elohim refers to intensification or amplification. That's why plural elohim is attributed to a singular person without contradicting itself or creating an unprecedented Triune Godhead.

Isaiah 44​

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;​

Renowned Hebrew scholar Gesenius said so. There isn't a greater authority on Hebrew than him.

"That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God), is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute"

*Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1910), p. 399.

Gesenius is dated, more scholars have come after him.

 

[The Learner]

Possibly a smear to discredit him or muddy the waters. Hard to say, but as far as I can tell there is nothing Valentinus said or taught in any of his surviving works.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Valentinus and Valentinians

The best known and most influential of the Gnostic heretics, born on the coast of Egypt

www.newadvent.org

"The origin of the universe is described as a process of emanation from the Godhead. The male and female aspects of the Father, acting in conjunction, manifested themselves in the Son. The Son is also often depicted by Valentinians as a male-female dyad. The Son manifests himself in twenty-six spiritual entities or Aeons arranged into male-female pairs. The arrangement and names of the Aeons will not be discussed here. They represent the energies immanent within Son and were seen as part of his personality. Together they constitute the Fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead."
...

The Valentinian tradition draws a sharp distinction between the human Jesus and the divine Jesus. The human Jesus was born the true son of Mary and Joseph. By a special dispensation, his body is consubstantial with Sophia and her spiritual seed. When he was thirty years old, he went to John the Baptist to be baptized. As soon as he went down into the water, the divine Savior, referred to as the "Spirit of the Thought of the Father", descended on him in the form of a dove. This is the true "virgin birth" and resurrection from the dead, for he was reborn of the virgin Spirit.

Jesus taught publicly in parables and riddles, but to his closest disciples he revealed the whole truth about the fall of Sophia and the coming restoration of the Fullness. According to Valentinian tradition, Mary Magdalene was an important member of this inner circle. She is seen as an image of the lower Sophia and is described as Jesus' consort in the Gospel of Philip.

The divine Jesus experienced all of the emotions of human being including grief, fear and confusion in the Garden of Gethsemene. However, only the human Jesus suffered pain and died on the cross. His divine aspect transcends physical suffering and death. When his physical body died, his non-corporeal spiritual body rose up from it.

Following the crucifixion, Valentinians believed that Jesus continued to appear to his disciples for eighteen months, not the forty days reported in the Acts of the Apostles. During this period he instructed the disciples "plainly about the Father." Even after his ascension, he continued to appear to people in visions, most notably Saint Paul and Valentinus.

https://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Brief_Summary_Theology.htm

 

[The Learner]

I have one thing to say..... and before I do I am putting myself on notice.

Why bother to baptise... as Jesus said... In the name of the Father, and In the Son , and in the Holy Spirit.

That my friend is one. It is called the Godhead.

Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God’s divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the one and only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18; cf. Hebrews 1:3).

The word "Godhead" can be found on three occasions in the King James Version of the Bible with the meaning of Deity or Divinity. In theological studies, the term Godhead is used to refer to the concept of the Triune God, or one God in three Persons that include God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Okay mods... monitor me for as long as you want. I just had to get that off my chest.

For everyone else... my signature still stands.

Didache 7. 1 Regarding baptism. Baptize as follows: after first explaining all these points, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19), in running water. 2 But if you have no running water, baptize in other water; and if you cannot in cold, then in warm.

 

[MonoBiblical]

He is the Father of Gnosticism..

And, He almost became a POPE

Actually Cerdo may have been before him, but he was a Cerinthus which can be determined by speculation.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Would you like to explain that statement please…..?

The JWs think the UN is a good organization. They follow their abusive globalist masters.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Ok, if you don't want to quote Scripture I will.

ONLY Jesus / God are called "Mighty God"! NOBODY else! Jesus is God!

Thou shouldest realize there is a Hebrew participle before "Mighty God" and Everlasting Father cognate wise!

 

[The Learner]

No, your translation is bad. Thomas said to him, "My lord, and My God..." Greek doesn't entirely [render] as the English, especially when the English is an abuse of English grammar.

What translation?

 

[MonoBiblical]

What translation?

Any are bad that say Thomas used a complete sentence.

 

[tigger 2]

Any are bad that say Thomas used a complete sentence.

...........................................................

MYGOD

 

[MonoBiblical]

...........................................................

MYGOD

There is also the issue of the two nominatives which your webpage ignores. κυριος and θεος are not connected by μου.

 

[The Learner]

There is also the issue of the two nominatives which your webpage ignores. κυριος and θεος are not connected by μου.

I already showed from greek grammar by Mounce they are connected and refer to the same person.

 

[The Learner]

I already showed from greek grammar by Mounce they are connected and refer to the same person.

The confession of Thomas, coming as it does at the climax of John's Gospel, is perhaps the clearest affirmation of Christ's deity in the Bible. It is clear, despite various theories to the contrary (see "Other views Considered," below), that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus. The phrase rendered "answered and said to him" is a rather common construction in the New Testament, and always precedes a direct address to the person referred to ("him," in this case, who can only be Jesus). This verse occurs in the middle of a conversation between Thomas and Jesus, and suggestions that Thomas was addressing the Father, or crying out in surprise are not credible.
For a devout Jew in the first Century to address someone as "my God" could only mean one thing: The "God" being addressed occupied a unique position in the speaker's devotion. For a Jew, this could only be YHWH. The phrase "my God" occurs over 135 times in the Bible, and when spoken by a Jew, always refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Thomas was disposed to believe in Jesus by his personal attachment to him, as he demonstrated previously by his resolute adherence in impending danger (11:16). Jesus may have felt that the faith of all the disciples was fragile, for he told them explicitly that the raising of Lazarus was designed to give them a solid basis for a continuing faith (11:15). Now, having been challenged to make a personal test of Jesus’ reality, Thomas expressed fullest faith in him. For a Jew to call another human associate "my Lord and my God" would be almost incredible. The Jewish law was strictly monotheistic; so the deification of any man would be regarded as blasphemy (10:33). Thomas, in the light of the Resurrection, applied to Jesus the titles of Lord (kyrios) and God (theos), both of which were titles of deity (EBC).

G R A M M A T I C A L A N A L Y S I S​

apekriqh QwmaV kai eipen autw,`O kurioV mou kai`o qeoV mou APEKRITHÊ THÔMAS KAI EIPEN AUTWi, hO KURIOS MOU KAI hO THEOS MOU Answered Thomas and said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing (RWP) Nominative for vocative Even where the nominative is still formally distinguished from the vocative, there is still a tendency for the nominative to usurp the place of the vocative (a tendency observable already in Homer)....Attic used the nominative (with article) with simple substantives only in addressing inferiors...The NT (in passages translated from a Semitic language) and the LXX do not conform to these limitations, but can even say ho theos, ho patêr, etc., in which the arthrous Semitic vocative is being reproduced by the Greek nominative with article....Jn 20:28 (cf., Rev 4:11) (BDF, pp. 81-82). About sixty times in the New Testament a nominative case noun is used to designate the person being addressed. The nominative functions like a vocative....The nominative of address is usually preceded by an article (Young, p. 12). A substantive in the nominative is used in the place of the vocative case. It is used (as is the voc.) in direct address to designate the addressee....The articular use also involves two nuances: address to an inferior and simple substitute for a Semitic noun of address, regardless of whether the addressee is inferior or superior (Wallace, pp. 56 - 57). In Hebrew typically the noun of address will have the article....In the LXX, God [Elohim] is customarily addressed with an articular nom. (Wallace, p. 57 n. 71). The nominative for vocative has exactly the same force and meaning as the vocative. This can be seen in numerous parallel passages in the Gospels, in which the vocative appears in one and the nominative in another (see, for example, Matt 27:46 [thee mou, thee mou] and Mark 15:34 [ho theos mou, ho theos mou]).

 

[The Learner]

See Harris pages 110-111, 3. Vocatival, Addressed to Jesus “In response Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’” And pages 121-122, 2. The Meaning and Theological Significance of Thomas’s Cry.

The confession of Thomas, coming as it does at the climax of John's Gospel, is perhaps the clearest affirmation of Christ's deity in the Bible. It is clear, despite various theories to the contrary (see "Other views Considered," below), that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus. The phrase rendered "answered and said to him" is a rather common construction in the New Testament, and always precedes a direct address to the person referred to ("him," in this case, who can only be Jesus). This verse occurs in the middle of a conversation between Thomas and Jesus, and suggestions that Thomas was addressing the Father, or crying out in surprise are not credible.
For a devout Jew in the first Century to address someone as "my God" could only mean one thing: The "God" being addressed occupied a unique position in the speaker's devotion. For a Jew, this could only be YHWH. The phrase "my God" occurs over 135 times in the Bible, and when spoken by a Jew, always refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Thomas was disposed to believe in Jesus by his personal attachment to him, as he demonstrated previously by his resolute adherence in impending danger (11:16). Jesus may have felt that the faith of all the disciples was fragile, for he told them explicitly that the raising of Lazarus was designed to give them a solid basis for a continuing faith (11:15). Now, having been challenged to make a personal test of Jesus’ reality, Thomas expressed fullest faith in him. For a Jew to call another human associate "my Lord and my God" would be almost incredible. The Jewish law was strictly monotheistic; so the deification of any man would be regarded as blasphemy (10:33). Thomas, in the light of the Resurrection, applied to Jesus the titles of Lord (kyrios) and God (theos), both of which were titles of deity (EBC).

G R A M M A T I C A L A N A L Y S I S​

apekriqh QwmaV kai eipen autw,`O kurioV mou kai`o qeoV mou APEKRITHÊ THÔMAS KAI EIPEN AUTWi, hO KURIOS MOU KAI hO THEOS MOU Answered Thomas and said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me Nominative for vocative The nominative for vocative has exactly the same force and meaning as the vocative. This can be seen in numerous parallel passages in the Gospels, in which the vocative appears in one and the nominative in another (see, for example, Matt 27:46 [thee mou, thee mou] and Mark 15:34 [ho theos mou, ho theos mou]).

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JWs think the UN is a good organization. They follow their abusive globalist masters.

Can I ask who told you that? It could not be further from the truth…..the UN is the devil’s organization for the accomplishment of his will, not God’s. It will be the uniting force of the NWO….a toothless tiger in all its history, and never a force for peace in the world, until it is given power by the beast who controls it.
The Bible is never wrong….we are about to experience Bible prophesy in the midst of the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen…..are we ready?