A question about the rapture

[Ronald D Milam]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

No, the Rapture is Pre Trib, as usual men somewhere down the line makes an erroneous interpretation, or as in this case the English interpreters were taking a swipe at the RCC with a falling away from the faith angle, there is no faith being spoken of in this whole chapter, but a Rapture (DEPARTING the Earth) is spoken of in vs. 1. My blog from years ago shows why the Departure in vs. 3 is the Pre Trib Rapture.

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away from faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1500 some odd years.

 

[Zao is life]

We don't have to rely on what the Apostles believed or did not believe on it. Jesus defined that "great tribulation" for His Church, not... just His Apostles with Him there on the Mount of Olives.

Man's seminary doctrine of Preterism tries to move that "great tribulation" backwards in history, like 70 A.D., when Jesus was giving it about the end of this world, because like you said, His Apostles asked Him about the end and the sign of His coming. Jesus even linked that "great tribulation" with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a temple in Jerusalem, which has never happened to do this day since His 1st coming.

So it ought to be easy to realize that "great tribulation" cannot be applied to back in history, and not even in our own immediate history of the 20th century.

We disagree on is the place where the abomination of desolation will appear. God only has one sanctuary.

The subject of Matthew 24:9-31 and 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 have a few things in common:

1. Matthew 24:10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 both speak about a falling away / apostasy.
2. Matthew 24:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2 both speak about lawlessness (the Greek word used is: anomia: lawlessness).
3. Matthew 24:14-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2 both speak about the time of the end and the coming of Christ.
4. Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 both speak about the temple of God.

The physical structure of the temple in Jerusalem is called hieron in the Greek throughout the New Testament, but the holy place of the temple (the naós) ceased being applied to the temple in Jerusalem after the tearing of the veil - 40 years before the physical temple was destroyed.

After the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the temple, the first time the word naos is used again, is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

It's also applied to the shrine of Diana once in the New Testament (also in the book of Acts).

After the book of Acts it's applied to the bodies of individual Christians as the temple of God, the church & the temple in heaven in all these verses (word used: naós):-

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22.

Every reference to the Jerusalem temple after the tearing of the veil continues to use the word hieron (but never again is the word naos used in reference to the Jerusalem temple).

2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 also use the word naós for "temple".

Revelation 11:2 is also speaking about "the holy city", and the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city three times (excluding Revelation 11:2), but not once does it call Babylon the Great, or the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, or the cities of the nations that will fall when the 7th bowl is poured out, "the holy city".

God's tabernacle is where the presence of God is. The presence of God will never again be a physical building - not even a church building when it's standing empty. The Spirit of God dwells in His people. That's the holy place, the tabernacle that we are told the beast of Revelation 13 will blaspheme, and the tabernacle that the man of sin will make his appearance in during the apostasy.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Jesus says that He comes quickly, hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come.

No. What the verse says is some people have crowns BEFORE Jesus returns and to not let anyone take those crowns. You are misreading it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the Rapture is Pre Trib, as usual men somewhere down the line makes an erroneous interpretation, or as in this case the English interpreters were taking a swipe at the RCC with a falling away from the faith angle, there is no faith being spoken of in this whole chapter, be a Rapture (DEPARTING the Earth) is spoken of in vs. 1. My blog from years ago shows why the Departure in vs. 3 is the Pre Trib Rapture.

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away from faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1500 some odd years.

This is utter nonsense. This is a case of going out of one's way to avoid acknowledging the obvious. Paul was speaking in 2 thess 2:1-3 of a mass falling away from the faith occurring in a later time period before Christ returns at the end of the age just like he did here:

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jesus spoke about this as well:

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

The context of 2 Thess 2:1-12 supports that he was talking about a mass falling away from the faith as well because it talks about wickedness being restrained until a later time when it is no longer restrained. That goes along with Jesus talking about a time when there would be an increase in wickedness that coincides with many turning away from the faith. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here. Instead, you are twisting scripture to fit your doctrine.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is utter nonsense. This is a case of going out of one's way to avoid acknowledging the obvious. Paul was speaking in 2 thess 2:1-3 of a mass falling away from the faith occurring in a later time period before Christ returns at the end of the age just like he did here:

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jesus spoke about this as well:

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

The context of 2 Thess 2:1-12 supports that he was talking about a mass falling away from the faith as well because it talks about wickedness being restrained until a later time when it is no longer restrained. That goes along with Jesus talking about a time when there would be an increase in wickedness that coincides with many turning away from the faith. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here. Instead, you are twisting scripture to fit your doctrine.

Amen to all that. You just established a scriptural way of rightly dividing the teaching of God with other scripture. No other way going forward.



Ronald D Milam said:
No, the Rapture is Pre Trib, as usual men somewhere down the line makes an erroneous interpretation, or as in this case the English interpreters were taking a swipe at the RCC with a falling away from the faith angle, there is no faith being spoken of in this whole chapter, be a Rapture (DEPARTING the Earth) is spoken of in vs. 1. My blog from years ago shows why the Departure in vs. 3 is the Pre Trib Rapt



Lets stick to study the scriptures in laying down the foundation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen to all that. You just established a scriptural way of rightly dividing the teaching of God with other scripture. No other way going forward.



Ronald D Milam said:
No, the Rapture is Pre Trib, as usual men somewhere down the line makes an erroneous interpretation, or as in this case the English interpreters were taking a swipe at the RCC with a falling away from the faith angle, there is no faith being spoken of in this whole chapter, be a Rapture (DEPARTING the Earth) is spoken of in vs. 1. My blog from years ago shows why the Departure in vs. 3 is the Pre Trib Rapt



Lets stick to study the scriptures in laying down the foundation.

Exactly, Jeff. I used scripture to support my view (as I know you do as well) and he used baseless speculation to support his. It's not hard to see which approach is better.

 

[The Light]

No. What the verse says is some people have crowns BEFORE Jesus returns and to not let anyone take those crowns. You are misreading it.

Sorry, not buying that, nor should you. The crowns are not given until Jesus comes. What the verse is saying is that if you have earned a crown don't let anyone take it. He comes quickly and you will receive the crown when He comes.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Gottservant]

The falling away (of the Church) is far slower, than men expect.

Furthermore, can God not save souls before, during and after the tribulation?

The exact point you want to remember, is that the Church will not hold out for (greater) faith, much longer after the Holy Spirit has entered Glory.

What you must learn to do, is let the fire go properly out, before you attempt to ignite it again - the passing of the Holy Spirit will give us all strength to praise God, but only those who wait will know in exactly what way to honour it (the praise).

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, not buying that, nor should you. The crowns are not given until Jesus comes.

Yet the verse does speak of people who have crowns already and for them not to lose them. It literally says that which defeats your entire argument. You can remain in denial mode or accept the truth and grow.

 

[The Light]

Yet the verse does speak of people who have crowns already and for them not to lose them. It literally says that which defeats your entire argument. You can remain in denial mode or accept the truth and grow.

The rewards are given when Jesus comes as proven by scripture.

The people in Chapter 3 are still alive. How can they have a crown that is not an earthly crown? The crowns we receive are incorruptible.

1 Corinthians 9
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

That means our bodies have to be changed to incorruptible. That of course happens when Jesus comes.

1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Those 24 elders have incorruptible crowns which means Jesus has returned.

I have already accepted the truth. There will be a rapture before the seals are opened, just as the Word shows.

 

[ewq1938]

Those 24 elders have incorruptible crowns which means Jesus has returned.

You can't even prove they are human. Jesus hasn't returned yet in the timeframe of that passage. The next chp shows Jesus isn't even in heaven, and when he arrives he looks like he has been slain. That's when he ascends from Earth to heaven and opens the seals, in the first century. No events occur when a seal is opened. It's all prophetic just like when he described teh same events in the OD. That was audio only, then John got video and audio and when the trumps sound, the events the seals described will happen in real time.

I have already accepted the truth. There will be a rapture before the seals are opened, just as the Word shows.

It doesn't show that. The only times the rapture is given a timeframe is twice, and both times the rapture happens after the trib is over, at the 7th trump. In the seals, that would be related to the 6th seal which is the 7th trump's events.

 

[Davy]

We disagree on is the place where the abomination of desolation will appear. God only has one sanctuary.

What Apostle Paul called the "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in relation to the future coming "man of sin" that will exalt himself as God and over all that is worshiped or called God, will be another Jewish temple built by the orthodox unbelieving JEWS in Jerusalem for the very end of this world.

The Daniel prophecy Jesus quoted about the "abomination of desolation" event REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple, and that will be the "temple of God" that Paul was pointing to.

And for those brethren in Christ that don't yet understand, the Spiritual Temple in Christ Jesus CANNOT BE CORRUPTED by any antichrist, because Jesus Christ is its Cornerstone, and His Apostles and prophets are the foundation. Anyone who even TRIES to corrupt the Spiritual Temple is simply 'cut off' from it.

So there's no need to entertain fantasies, because that is the difference between 2 Thess.2:3-4 with the coming Antichrist, "man of sin", pseudo-Christ", "dragon", "little horn", "vile person", "king of fierce countenance", "another beast", etc., to sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end, vs. Christ's servants who remain faithful waiting on Him, and thus remaining a 'lively stone' in His Spiritual Temple.

 

[The Light]

You can't even prove they are human. Jesus hasn't returned yet in the timeframe of that passage. The next chp shows Jesus isn't even in heaven, and when he arrives he looks like he has been slain. That's when he ascends from Earth to heaven and opens the seals, in the first century. No events occur when a seal is opened. It's all prophetic just like when he described teh same events in the OD. That was audio only, then John got video and audio and when the trumps sound, the events the seals described will happen in real time.

Okay. You've let that trip you up. Jesus says He is coming quickly in Revelation 3. And yet you claim that Jesus isn't even in heaven yet because of Revelation 5. If we use your incorrect logic, Jesus can't be slain in Revelation 5 because He does not get born until Revelation 12.

Revelation 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It doesn't show that. The only times the rapture is given a timeframe is twice, and both times the rapture happens after the trib is over, at the 7th trump. In the seals, that would be related to the 6th seal which is the 7th trump's events.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Yes there is a rapture at the 6th seal but it is not the Church being raptured from the earth.

Your logic is incorrect. The sixth seal is over before the 7th seal containing the trumpets of wrath can begin. The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet. At the 6th seal, Jesus returns in the clouds. At the 7th trumpet, the wrath of God is over and Jesus has returned to the earth and set up His kingdom.

 

[Davy]

Your logic is incorrect. The sixth seal is over before the 7th seal containing the trumpets of wrath can begin. The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet. At the 6th seal, Jesus returns in the clouds. At the 7th trumpet, the wrath of God is over and Jesus has returned to the earth and set up His kingdom.

You are simply not understanding the order of events written in Christ's Book of Revelation. You are following men's doctrines about it instead.

The 7th Seal mentions there is silence in Heaven for half an hour. That represents a 'selah' period, a 'rest' like in the Psalms. So the 7th Seal does represent a type of separation of the end time events between the Seals, and the Trumpets, Vials.

However, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials are all still ONLY about the 7 main SIGNS of the end that Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. Revelation simply further reveals those same 7 Signs in more detail.

Christ's SIGNS in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 specifically follow the order of the Seals given in Revelation 6. And of course the 6th Seal includes events about the day of His coming to end this world with God's wrath poured out upon the wicked. And so does the 7th Trumpet reveal events of the day of Christ's coming, and likewise does the 7th Vial events.

Thus the order for the coming Antichrist is. Antichrist is shown coming on the 1st Part of the 6th Seal:
666

But the order of Christ's future coming to end Antichrist's reign is:
777

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This is utter nonsense. This is a case of going out of one's way to avoid acknowledging the obvious. Paul was speaking in 2 thess 2:1-3 of a mass falling away from the faith occurring in a later time period before Christ returns at the end of the age just like he did here:

Can you not read well? I stated the culture gets worse and worse, as Romans 1 says, and as other scriptures attest unto, and we know foolish people who call themselves Christians, but who are not (KEY Christ Jesus NEVER KNEW them) will teach doctrines of Devils. So, we now the world gets more and more evil, LOOK AROUND that is obvious, 1 Billion baby murders via Child Sacrifice (Abortion) Homosexual Marriage etc. you are conflating the world becoming evil with the Church Departing from the Faith here in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 however, and that is a FALLSE TEACHING, because 2 Thess. 2:1-7 is clearly about the DEPARTURE of the Church, not the Departure from the Faith, so it is a false teaching. Anyone who can't see that is clearly not following the facts as shown.

What you want to do is take the HEADLINE which is about this portion of the bible only, and conflate the facts pertaining to other scriptures which of course do say the whole world in general falls away from the faith, WE KNOW THIS, the world gets coarser and coarser, of course (pun). So, lets change the HEADLINE to "The 2 Thess. 2:1-7 supposed FALLING AWAY is really the Pre Trib Rapture" if you insist, but you should be able to grasp the overall point that 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is the Pre Trib Rapture and it is NOT a Falling away from the Faith. Pssttt, find ANYWHERE in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 where Faith is even hinted at, you can't. I destroy the 2 Thess. 2:1-3 argument of those mid and post tribbers.

The context of 2 Thess 2:1-12 supports that he was talking about a mass falling away from the faith as well because it talks about wickedness being restrained until a later time when it is no longer restrained. That goes along with Jesus talking about a time when there would be an increase in wickedness that coincides with many turning away from the faith. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here. Instead, you are twisting scripture to fit your doctrine.

Not so, PERIOD. It is the Pre Trib Rapture. PERIOD.

Exactly, Jeff. I used scripture to support my view (as I know you do as well) and he used baseless speculation to support his. It's not hard to see which approach is better.

I proved your points have no cred.

 

[The Light]

You are simply not understanding the order of events written in Christ's Book of Revelation. You are following men's doctrines about it instead.

Doctrines of man? Very few understand that there are two raptures or harvests. One is before the seals are opened. Many men believe this. At one is at the 6th seal. Some believe this. But very, very, very few understand that both will occur.

The 7th Seal mentions there is silence in Heaven for half an hour. That represents a 'selah' period, a 'rest' like in the Psalms. So the 7th Seal does represent a type of separation of the end time events between the Seals, and the Trumpets, Vials.

Agreed. However, the 7th seal contains the wrath of God which is the 7 trumpets.

However, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials are all still ONLY about the 7 main SIGNS of the end that Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. Revelation simply further reveals those same 7 Signs in more detail.

The first four seals are the "beginning of sorrows" in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. The seventh seal contains the trumpets of wrath. Wrath is OVER at the 7th trumpet.

Christ's SIGNS in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 specifically follow the order of the Seals given in Revelation 6.

Exactly

And of course the 6th Seal includes events about the day of His coming to end this world with God's wrath poured out upon the wicked.

The tribulation is over and then Christ returns at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal opens and after silence the trumpets of wrath begins. The 6th seal does NOT include events about the day of His coming to end this world with God's wrath poured out upon the wicked. That happens at the 7th seal.

And so does the 7th Trumpet reveal events of the day of Christ's coming, and likewise does the 7th Vial events.

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. What happens in the vials is just a different view of the wrath of God timeframe. In other words the wrath of God is both trumpets and vials happening in the same timeframe.

Thus the order for the coming Antichrist is. Antichrist is shown coming on the 1st Part of the 6th Seal:
666

No. The Antichrist is the rider on the white horse, 1st seal, when He goes forth conquering and to conquer in the name of peace.

But the order of Christ's future coming to end Antichrist's reign is: 777

Nice play on numbers, but the problem is you have Christ setting up His kingdom at the 6th seal so 777 doesn't work. The seals are in order. 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest and the 7th seal is the wrath of God. The mixing of the 6th and 7th seal is in error.

 

[jeffweeder]

Can you not read well? I stated the culture gets worse and worse, as Romans 1 says, and as other scriptures attest unto, and we know foolish people who call themselves Christians, but who are not (KEY Christ Jesus NEVER KNEW them) will teach doctrines of Devils. So, we now the world gets more and more evil, LOOK AROUND that is obvious, 1 Billion baby murders via Child Sacrifice (Abortion) Homosexual Marriage etc. you are conflating the world becoming evil with the Church Departing from the Faith here in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 however, and that is a FALLSE TEACHING, because 2 Thess. 2:1-7 is clearly about the DEPARTURE of the Church, not the Departure from the Faith, so it is a false teaching. Anyone who can't see that is clearly not following the facts as shown.

What you want to do is take the HEADLINE which is about this portion of the bible only, and conflate the facts pertaining to other scriptures which of course do say the whole world in general falls away from the faith, WE KNOW THIS, the world gets coarser and coarser, of course (pun). So, lets change the HEADLINE to "The 2 Thess. 2:1-7 supposed FALLING AWAY is really the Pre Trib Rapture" if you insist, but you should be able to grasp the overall point that 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is the Pre Trib Rapture and it is NOT a Falling away from the Faith. Pssttt, find ANYWHERE in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 where Faith is even hinted at, you can't. I destroy the 2 Thess. 2:1-3 argument of those mid and post tribbers.


Not so, PERIOD. It is the Pre Trib Rapture. PERIOD.

I proved your points have no cred.

Paul is teaching that 2 things need to happen before the Lord comes to gather us together to himself.

2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.



One of them is not our departure to be with him lol.

It clearly means a departure from the faith - Apostasy - the rebellion, as stated in 99% of all versions.


KJ21
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
ASV
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
AMP
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],
AMPC
Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),
BRG
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
CSB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
CEB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. That day won’t come unless the rebellion comes first and the person who is lawless is revealed, who is headed for destruction.
CJB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
CEV
But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.
DARBY
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
DLNT
Let no one deceive you in any way, because it will not be present unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed— the son of destruction,
DRA
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
ERV
Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell.
EHV
Let no one deceive you in any way, because that day will not come until the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed—the son of destruction.
ESV
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
ESVUK
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
EXB
Do not let anyone ·fool [deceive] you in any way. That day of the Lord [v. 2] will not come until the ·turning away from God [great rebellion; apostasy; Matt. 24:11–12; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; 2 Pet. 2:3; Jude 18] happens and the Man of ·Evil [Wickedness; L Lawlessness; C probably the Antichrist; 1 John 2:18; Rev. 13], ·who is on his way to hell [L the son of destruction; John 17:12], appears.
GNV
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
GW
Don’t let anyone deceive you about this in any way. ⌞That day cannot come unless⌟ a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you not read well?

I can read quite well. The issue has nothing to do with that, it has to do with you taking 2 Thessalonians 2:3 completely out of context.

I stated the culture gets worse and worse, as Romans 1 says, and as other scriptures attest unto, and we know foolish people who call themselves Christians, but who are not (KEY Christ Jesus NEVER KNEW them) will teach doctrines of Devils. So, we now the world gets more and more evil, LOOK AROUND that is obvious, 1 Billion baby murders via Child Sacrifice (Abortion) Homosexual Marriage etc. you are conflating the world becoming evil with the Church Departing from the Faith here in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 however, and that is a FALLSE TEACHING, because 2 Thess. 2:1-7 is clearly about the DEPARTURE of the Church, not the Departure from the Faith, so it is a false teaching. Anyone who can't see that is clearly not following the facts as shown.

Doesn't it follow that if wickedness increases that there would be an increase in the number of those falling away from the faith as well? Is that not what Paul indicated in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 and what Jesus indicated in Matthew 24:10-12? The context of it talking about a mass falling away from the faith fits the context of there being an increase in wickedness. The idea of it talking about a departure of the church in verse 3 does not fit the context of what is written about after that.

What you want to do is take the HEADLINE which is about this portion of the bible only, and conflate the facts pertaining to other scriptures which of course do say the whole world in general falls away from the faith, WE KNOW THIS, the world gets coarser and coarser, of course (pun). So, lets change the HEADLINE to "The 2 Thess. 2:1-7 supposed FALLING AWAY is really the Pre Trib Rapture" if you insist, but you should be able to grasp the overall point that 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is the Pre Trib Rapture and it is NOT a Falling away from the Faith. Pssttt, find ANYWHERE in 2 Thess. 2:1-7 where Faith is even hinted at, you can't. I destroy the 2 Thess. 2:1-3 argument of those mid and post tribbers.

Your argument is weak. It ignores context and doesn't allow scripture to interpret scripture. Your approach instead is to make it say whatever you need it to say to fit your doctrine. The word apostasia has nothing to do with departing the earth, but rather relates to rebellion and departing from the faith.

Not so, PERIOD. It is the Pre Trib Rapture. PERIOD.

I proved your points have no cred.

You came nowhere near proving anything. Everyone here can see that.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Paul is teaching that 2 things need to happen before the Lord comes to gather us together to himself.

2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.



One of them is not our departure to be with him lol.

It clearly means a departure from the faith - Apostasy - the rebellion, as stated in 99% of all versions.

It amuses me when people can not interpret the bible correctly but want to try and teach others who are called un to Prophecy specifically for 38 years.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you(Ask URGENTLY, what is he ASKING? THINK), brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

{{{ So, we ASK URGENTY, via the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, so what are Paul asking the Thessalonians in an urgent tone about? See verse 2, about FEARING that they are in God's Wrath, the DOTL or day of Christ, so Paul is pointing out why they SHOULD NOT FEAR that they are in the DOTL, and his point is made VIA the Gathering together unto Jesus in verse. He says that CAN NOT HAPPEN, until two other thongs happen first. }}}

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

{{{ As I was saying, Paul is asking them URGENTLY not to FEAR that they are in God's Wrath, he says do not allow other people to fool you, neither by WORD or via "supposed Spiritual Prophecy", or even by letter which they wrote saying we told them this (nor by letter as if this stuff was from us) That you are in God's Wrath. }}}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means(Allow no man to fool you in ANY WAY): for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (departure of....THE CHURCH of course), and that man of sin be revealed(The Anti-Christ comes forth at the exact same time as the DOTL, but he reneges on his Agreement/Covenant at the 1290, which s 30 days before he Conquers Israel), the son of perdition;

I just SMH at people who can not understand what is obvious. Just because you was raised to think APOSTACY doesn't mean that is whay it is. There is NO FAITH being spoken about in the chapter, but there is a GATHERING UNTO Christ mentioned in first 1, and thus of course its the Rapture.

Now intellectually, let me prove you are in error.

So, Paul nor the Thessalonians knew when Jesus was going to return correct? Of course not. So, if your take on the chapter is right how could Paul tell them NOT TO FEAR that they were in God's Wrath? That could happen in the NEXT WEEK fir all they knew, but Paul is telling them do not fear, because they would be DEPARTING before the DOTL and the Anti-Christ shows up.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Your argument is weak. It ignores context and doesn't allow scripture to interpret scripture. Your approach instead is to make it say whatever you need it to say to fit your doctrine. The word apostasia has nothing to do with departing the earth, but rather relates to rebellion and departing from the faith.

You are wrong, I am correct. PERIOD