A question about the rapture

[David in NJ]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

No such thing as a 'pre-trib' rapture.

the LORD Jesus said HE is Coming after the tribulation = Matthew ch24

The Great Tribulation begins when the FATHER permits the Antichrist to be revealed = 2 Thess ch2, Matt ch24, 1 John ch2, Revelation

The Tribulation began a long time ago and it will continue to 'heat-up' and grow greater as it is now and continuing.

KEY = JESUS ministry was 3.5 years

 

[David in NJ]

I did not see this thread until now but I have proposed a question in another's thread "the treachery of doctrine" as to why folks buy into this theology by John N Dary (1800's ) of a pre-trib rapture.

Good Morning Keturah,

The treachery is in men's hearts = everywhere, including our own when we deny His words.

This treachery in the Sacred Assembly of the Elect started a long time ago and remains a constant plague.

Jeremiah 5:31
A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land.
The prophets prophesy falsely,
and the priests rule by their own authority.
My people love it so,
but what will you do in the end?

 

[David in NJ]

Before the rapture? Or before the day of the LORD/day of Christ?

Much love!

There is no rapture before the Day of the LORD = His Second Coming = Matt ch24, 1 Thess & 2 Thess, Hebrews 9:28

 

[David in NJ]

Yes!!! In the days just after the rapture millions will choose to become believers but then they must try to live under anti-Christ rule in the years of the great tribulation.

Complete falsehood = false prophecy

BUT you can save yourself by bringing forth the scripture(s) that you claim in your post.

 

[David in NJ]

At the rapture believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds but at the return of Jesus jJesus returns with all the raptured believrs and His angles to the mount of Olives and sets His foot there!!

You mix truth with error which then makes you a false prophet.

BUT you can save yourself from judgment if you can find the scripture(s) that agree with your claim.

 

[David in NJ]

At the rapture believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds but at the return of Jesus jJesus returns with all the raptured believrs and His angles to the mount of Olives and sets His foot there!!

This is the SAME Event = the Resurrection followed by the rapture only occur at His Second Coming/Return.

You cannot find a single verse that sates 'pre-trib' rapture and/or Jesus takes raptured saints to heaven and then returns with them.

 

[Keturah]

...It is because men are self-centered.

In other words, it is easier to read that there is "a falling away" and believe "Surely not me!" in spite of confessing to be a sinner and one who's fall dates back to Adam in whom all have sinned--and point the finger...than it is to admit to the whole truth of all that is written implementing us all.

"The man of sin" being revealed...is us, just as it was with Adam.

"The man of sin" being revealed...is us, just as it was with Adam." ScottA #11

I disagree.
The man of sin is NOT US, for we are not hidden except in Christ.

Apostasy or falling away happens as you say but there will be a GREAT FALLING AWAY B4 THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED....AKA THE ANTI-CHRIST.

I choose to have my sins go before me through salvation, repentance & his forgiveness.

Today with all the technology, everyone is watching & being watched!

I concur with the thoughts of your post just not the totality, for I see the man of sin as anti-christ, but I get what you are saying.

Sin.........surely NOT IN OF OR BY ME!

 

[Keturah]

Yes!!! In the days just after the rapture millions will choose to become believers but then they must try to live under anti-Christ rule in the years of the great tribulation.

You bought the lies of the "Left Behind" series, I see.

 

[David in NJ]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Jonatec,

Place this Scripture, which holds Great Promise, deep in your heart.
Make it of Highest Priority and worship the LORD in it and with it as you study God's Word.
If you do, it will keep you from confusion and the many false teachings that abound in christianity and in the world.


Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[Truth7t7]

The "man of sin" was and is Adam...and "all" are included, starting with Eve.

"False"

The Man Of Sin will be a future literal human man, who the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his future, literal, visible, second coming, as you deny this literal, visible, second coming also

 

[Keturah]

Good Morning Keturah,

The treachery is in men's hearts = everywhere, including our own when we deny His words.

This treachery in the Sacred Assembly of the Elect started a long time ago and remains a constant plague.

Jeremiah 5:31
A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land.
The prophets prophesy falsely,
and the priests rule by their own authority.
My people love it so,
but what will you do in the end?

Agreed upon.And good morning to you. Praying your recovery is continuing in him.
Treachery, deceitfulness, false doctrines & teachings have been the " Hounds of the World" yapping @ the beautiful feet of those whom carry the gospel of Christ Jesus !

 

[ScottA]

Jesus Christ will return "literally", and "visibly" in the heavens, just as the scripture teaches below, human eyes on this earth will witness the future literal event, "something you deny will happen"

Luke 21:27-28KJV
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

No, you are denying the whole of scripture, saying not on earth but in the heavens, then contradicting yourself to say those on earth will witness, which is against Jesus' own words saying, "the world will see Me no more."

You reveal yourself. Speaking against Jesus as you have, is by a particular spirit--that spirit which is against Him.

 

[David in NJ]

Agreed upon.And good morning to you. Praying your recovery is continuing in him.
Treachery, deceitfulness, false doctrines & teachings have been the " Hounds of the World" yapping @ the beautiful feet of those whom carry the gospel of Christ Jesus !

THANK YOU for your most valuable prayers of kindness for me.

My hip is doing quite well but my knee(same leg) has been increasing in pain and i am concerned and almost fell into depression because of it.
Nevertheless, i press on towards the Upward and Highest Calling in Jesus Christ our LORD.

 

[ScottA]

"False"

The Man Of Sin will be a future literal human man, who the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his future, literal, visible, second coming, as you deny this literal, visible, second coming also

That is not the whole of scripture.

You are only cherry picking half-truths according to your own understanding. But your real error, is to refuse and deny the rest of scripture when it is presented to you in reproof, and not reconciling every word from the mouth of God.

 

[Keturah]

THANK YOU for your most valuable prayers of kindness for me.

My hip is doing quite well but my knee(same leg) has been increasing in pain and i am concerned and almost fell into depression because of it.
Nevertheless, i press on towards the Upward and Highest Calling in Jesus Christ our LORD.

Amen.
It is all about "pressing on & pressing in".

May the Lord be gracious in healing towards you & your knee.
I have full dbl knee implant, OA eroded even my cap.

I am so thankful of the knowledge God has given to men in the study of this wonderful masterpiece of art called the human body !

 

[Truth7t7]

I have full dbl knee implant, OA eroded even my cap.

We're you a carpet layer, Mason, or some other job always on your knees, or possibly a long time prayer warrior?

 

[Keturah]

We're you a carpet layer, Mason, or some other job always on your knees, or possibly a long time prayer warrior?

I have been a prayer warrior for many years, praise God. Plus have been on my feet in the HC industry also.

I will gladly give up any working body part in service to my Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And the only way to escape the wrath is the second birth.

If you mean that only those who are born again will escape it, then I agree. That seems pretty obvious since God's wrath is always on unbelievers and never on believers.

Why would you pray to escape the wrath, if you plan on going through it, anyway?

LOL! I don't plan on going through it. Where did you come up with that nonsense? I've said repeatedly that I believe it's talking about the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns. Yes, I would definitely like to escape that if I'm still alive when He returns and I plan on escaping that if I'm alive when He returns.

Are you praying to find a cave and hide out until it is over?

You should pray to learn how to understand what people are actually saying so that you don't misrepresent what they're saying all the time. It only makes you look like you're either not reading what others are saying carefully (for whatever reason) or you have very poor reading comprehension skills.

 

[No Pre-TB]

At the rapture believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds but at the return of Jesus jJesus returns with all the raptured believrs and His angles to the mount of Olives and sets His foot there!!

How many times does Jesus descend from Heaven? According to how I understand you, it is 2 more times.

Acts 3:20-21 says,

20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

As one puts it:
the accomplishment of all promises and prophecies concerning the bringing in the fulness of the Gentiles, and the conversion of the Jews, and so the gathering in all the elect of God; and concerning all the glorious things spoken of the church of Christ in the latter day; which sense is confirmed by what follows: which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began

How does that fit before anything is removed in order to setup the things that cannot be removed, before people are saved, before the conversion of the Jews? He does not leave heaven twice.

The day of our gathering together unto Christ will not happen till the apostasia happens first and the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2

There is only 1 more coming of Christ and he descends only 1 more time at that coming.

 

[Timtofly]

If you mean that only those who are born again will escape it, then I agree. That seems pretty obvious since God's wrath is always on unbelievers and never on believers.


LOL! I don't plan on going through it. Where did you come up with that nonsense? I've said repeatedly that I believe it's talking about the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns. Yes, I would definitely like to escape that if I'm still alive when He returns and I plan on escaping that if I'm alive when He returns.


You should pray to learn how to understand what people are actually saying so that you don't misrepresent what they're saying all the time. It only makes you look like you're either not reading what others are saying carefully (for whatever reason) or you have very poor reading comprehension skills.

The topic of this thread is going through God's wrath posters here call the GT. They claim the church is left on the earth during this time of God's wrath the GT.

You think you agree with them, because your eschatology ends before wrath begins. You are dead wrong. You sidestep their ideology, yet think you are going to see a post GT wrath of God, second coming. The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. The battle of Armageddon is 42 months after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. Do you think the 7th Trumpet will sound for 3.5 years so you can still count that as the Second Coming event? I doubt you do. But the 7th Trumpet is interrupted with those 42 months. The week is split in half just like Daniel 9:27 declares. This set of 7 in Daniel 9:27 is not 7 years as many claim, and after 7 years of wrath and Tribulation the Second Coming happens. This is a normal week, of the days of the 7th Trumpet. In the midst of this week is when the 42 month extension of time is given to Satan. Satan does not get 42 months leading up to the days of the 7th Trumpet, and then the Second Coming happens. That is not a thief in the night moment. If Satan is sitting on the throne for 42 months, the thief in the night moment already happened. The Second Coming already happened. Those 42 months are not God's wrath nor Tribulation of the church. Those 42 months are God's grace and mercy and longsuffering allowing more time for many to accept salvation and reject the mark. Those beheaded are not Christians.

They are literally getting their head chopped off to avoid the mark. Anybody thinking they go all the way to Armageddon and are part of the church are deceiving themselves. Not even those beheaded are part of the church, even though you claim they just represent humanity since the Cross who are martyred for their faith. You are missing the point of Revelation 20:4-6. They are saved just enough to live on the earth for the next 1,000 years. They fare better than those currently in sheol who may be given eternal life at the GWT. They will have escaped sheol.

I know you think Revelation 19 is the Second Coming. Along with everyone else who splits the rapture from the Second Coming. There is no rapture in Revelation 19. Those on white horses are not even the church. The church is in the New Jerusalem, a thousand years later. You just conveniently change up the chronological order of Revelation to make your ideal eschatology work out for you.

So why do you think coming on white horses is the same as the New Jerusalem descending? One event is to remove Satan's corrupt empire. The other event is to completely change creation as we know it.

How can the Second Coming be without warning, when you think Satan needs to have an established and firm control of the entire world first? Certainly that would be just as unexpected, as the Second Coming. If Satan tried to prove to the whole world he is a literal being instead of some figurative dragon pulling all the strings, he would also have to deceive people into thinking there is nothing else true about God's Word, except for himself. You keep calling Satan this spiritual being as if he had no substance or physical body. Satan can appear in the physical and can be locked up in the pit just like all the other angels who followed him in rebellion. Do you think they all are on "leashes" wreaking physical havoc on the world like Satan can? Or have they been literally bound since they rebelled as Jude declares?