A question about the rapture

[Truth7t7]

Your beliefs are certainly in accord with the teachings of the church (which was foretold to be tainted by false teachers), and yes, the future was indeed to experience a falling away. But the greater context and truth began in the beginning with the falling away of Adam and Eve, and individually includes all who sin of every age throughout the entire history of the world.

So, unless you want to stand before God and tell Him, "but Lord, there was no 'falling away' until after Paul addressed it for the future"...you would do well to reconsider that "all have fallen short of the glory of God" since the beginning.

The passage isn't talking about mankind falling away from the time of Adam and Eve as you falsely suggest

It's speaks directly to 2 conditions that will take place in the future, 1.) The apostasy of the church 2.) The man of sin, a literal human man being revealed to the world, proclaiming to be God, who will be worshipped by the entire unsaved world

Scott your a full preterist in that everything has been fulfilled, going so far as denying a future, literal, visible, return of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Scott it's your belief and teaching that is way out in left field, so far away from biblical orthodoxy it really doesn't demand attention

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes!!! In the days just after the rapture millions will choose to become believers but then they must try to live under anti-Christ rule in the years of the great tribulation.

Where is this taught in scripture?

Do you believe the following verse will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Truth7t7]

...It is because men are self-centered.

Looking in a mirror again, walking like Einstein?

 

[Gottservant]

[...]

But let me ask you: So, you believe that you are not fallen, that you are not descendant from Adam and Eve by whom all have sinned against God and who hid themselves; or that sinning after Adam is not anti-Christ and against Him who was before the foundation of the world and for and by whom all things were and are made?
[...]

Is "not" anti-Christ? I would say it is.

Adam became the heart of the son of perdition, when he sinned against God.

Sin has a reducing effect, first you are a man, then you are a man of sin (just as the anti-Christ is a man of sin).

 

[Truth7t7]

Where is this taught in scripture?

Do you believe the following verse will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Yeah, that's the day the Millennial Kingdom starts on earth, everybody knows this

 

[Truth7t7]

Is "not" anti-Christ? I would say it is.

Adam became the heart of the son of perdition, when he sinned against God.

Sin has a reducing effect, first you are a man, then you are a man of sin (just as the anti-Christ is a man of sin).

False, (The Man Of Sin) will be a future literal human man who proclaims to be God, and is worshipped by the entire world

 

[ScottA]

The passage isn't talking about mankind falling away from the time of Adam and Eve as you falsely suggest

It's speaks directly to 2 conditions that will take place in the future, 1.) The apostasy of the church 2.) The man of sin, a literal human man being revealed to the world, proclaiming to be God, who will be worshipped by the entire unsaved world

Scott your a full preterist in that everything has been fulfilled, going so far as denying a future, literal, visible, return of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Scott it's your belief and teaching that is way out in left field, so far away from biblical orthodoxy it really doesn't demand attention

You accuse me apparently without even knowing the meaning of Preterist. But yes, out in left field like eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood.

As for your two mentioned things that only occur in the future: Apostacy was already at work when Paul penned his explanation of what must first occur. As for the man of sin, there are none (no not one) who are not...and yes, before we come to know there is a God and it is not us, we all stand in the temple are born in claiming we are God, the center of our own universe. The individual, future part, you have only assumed.

 

[ScottA]

Looking in a mirror again, walking like Einstein?

Unbecoming of you. Are you hoping I report you, or just attacking what you do not understand? Typical.

 

[Gottservant]

False, the man of sin will be a future literal human man who proclaims to be God, and is worshipped by the entire world

There is an anti-Christ throughout the Ages; yes there will be a single man, but remembered what happened to Judas - Satan entered him, even though he was not the anti-Christ, but he became like the anti-Christ as a result.

As regards worship, you are forgetting that the Lord will shorten the days. The world will have an opportunity to worship the anti-Christ, but the faith will take that opportunity to lay down their lives.

 

[GISMYS_7]

At the rapture believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds but at the return of Jesus jJesus returns with all the raptured believrs and His angles to the mount of Olives and sets His foot there!!

 

[ScottA]

Is "not" anti-Christ? I would say it is.

Adam became the heart of the son of perdition, when he sinned against God.

Sin has a reducing effect, first you are a man, then you are a man of sin (just as the anti-Christ is a man of sin).

Yes, sorry if that was hard to follow. It was a question, so asking if he was not anti-Christ before being saved, was me saying that we all were.

 

[Truth7t7]

Unbecoming of you. Are you hoping I report you, or just attacking what you do not understand? Typical.

I'm not attacking anybody

You posted that men are self centered, does that include you also, looking into a mirror of your own accusations?

Your the author of a book called "Walking Like Einstein" are you not?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

There is an anti-Christ throughout the Ages; yes there will be a single man, but remembered what happened to Judas - Satan entered him, even though he was not the anti-Christ, but he became like the anti-Christ as a result.

As regards worship, you are forgetting that the Lord will shorten the days. The world will have an opportunity to worship the anti-Christ, but the faith will take that opportunity to lay down their lives.

The discussion surrounds 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and the future (Man Of Sin), you have taken this future human man out of context and applied him everywhere in confusion "Wrong"

The (Man Of Sin) will be a future literal human man, that is revealed to the world proclaiming to be God, and he will be worshipped by the entire unsaved world

 

[Truth7t7]

As for the man of sin, there are none (no not one) who are not...and yes, before we come to know there is a God and it is not us, we all stand in the temple are born in claiming we are God, the center of our own universe. The individual, future part, you have only assumed.

Yes you deny a future literal human man as the (Man Of Sin) that will be revealed to the world proclaiming to be God, just as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-11 teaches

You also deny a future, literal, visible, coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, something you are silent on "Why"?

 

[Gottservant]

The discussion surrounds 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and the future (Man Of Sin), you have taken this future human man out of context and applied him everywhere in confusion "Wrong"

The (Man Of Sin) will be a future literal human man, that is revealed to the world proclaiming to be God

I'm not confused. Judas literally had the feet of the anti-Christ; Adam literally had the heart of the anti-Christ.

I'm not going to accuse you, but there is a very distinct possibility that you have not died to yourself, in respect of the future man of sin. If I may, it sounds like you are getting ready to identify the anti-Christ, but that in your heart you fear he may be from anywhere, whereas if you had died to yourself, you would understand that he comes from the world. That's not a problem, unless you hold on to the world. So rather than be self-appointed to identify something of the world, begin to pray that you escape what is to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man (then you will be doing the Lord's will?). There will be more truth, to come, about the anti-Christ, but it will cease to matter to you, because you are in connection with God.

 

[Truth7t7]

So rather than be self-appointed to identify something of the world, begin to pray that you escape what is to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man (then you will be doing the Lord's will?).

How does one "Escape" what is to come, a pre-trib rapture?

 

[Gottservant]

How does one "Escape" what is to come, a pre-trib rapture?

That's what you pray for (that when the trouble comes, you know how to identify the way out)

I addressed the options open to God, in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, that's the day the Millennial Kingdom starts on earth, everybody knows this

Obviously, you're being sarcastic here since you're an Amil. Yeah, "everybody knows this". Right.

I don't know if/when he or she will respond to my post, so I'll just show now what the reason was for asking that question for the benefit of anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

If verse 10 describes what will happen when the rapture occurs, which I think it clearly does, then we should look at the preceding verses to see what else will occur on that day. Jesus "will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus...with everlasting destruction". I would assume pre-tribs would agree that 2 Thess 1:7-9 will occur at the second coming of Christ with His angels AFTER the tribulation. But, what they need to see is that is the same day that He will come "to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". When else will that happen except when the rapture occurs? There's no basis for thinking that would be describing something that will happen on some other day than the rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's what you pray for (that when the trouble comes, you know how to identify the way out)

I addressed the options open to God, in this thread.

Have you looked closely to see what it is exactly that we should pray to escape? Is it things that will happen for 7 years during a future tribulation period? Or something else? Let's look at the text to find out.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

When you read this you should see that what Jesus was saying we should pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape is not literally everything He had previously talked about, which would even include earthquakes and wars and such. If that's what He meant then we have all already failed to escape it.

No, He was talking about being worthy to escape something that would "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". That doesn't describe everything He had previously talked about. Look at what He said in verse 34. He talked about being careful to not have "that day" come upon us unexpectedly. And then, still talking about "that day", He said "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". So, what day is it that He said we should not let come upon us unexpectedly and that we should pray to escape? The day He comes again. The day that heaven and earth pass away. That is the context of what He was talking about. He was not saying we should pray to escape anything except what comes upon the whole earth on the day He returns.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Paul does not mention anything about a tribulation in those verses. Apostasy is not tribulation. The man of sin is not tribulation.

The Greek in verse 2 calls this period the Day of the Lord. That is not a single 24hr. day. Verse 1 declares there is a Second Coming. Verse 2 calls the event, the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the Millennial Reign of Jesus as King. Verse 3 deals with a man of sin and apostasy. Certainly all of that happens before the Day of the Lord can start.

Paul is saying the Millennium cannot start until the Second Coming, the AC, and apostasy is dealt with first. Literally nothing about a tribulation. You are going to have to go to a different Scripture for information on the tribulation.