A question about the rapture

[GRACE ambassador]

The same Greek word, apostasia, translated as "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is used in one other verse:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

It's used here to refer to Jews departing or falling away from belief in what Moses taught. I don't see any basis for thinking it was used in any other sense (a falling away from the faith) in 2 Thess 2:3.

Precious friend, thanks for your Valuable Input - our brief basis:

The Falling Away = “depart” from the faith? Or?:

“The Departure From Earth”?

"falling away" = apostasy? However, we, since the beginning, have had "rebellion against God!"

However, with "The" Definite Article in the Greek = "hee apostasia," we "could Now interpret" =

"The Falling Away ( The "Snatching Away" or "The Catching Away ) From The Earth,
By The LORD Himself To "Gather us Unto Himself" to "Be Caught Up" With The
Resurrected "dead" in CHRIST, To "Meet The LORD, In The Air!" (2Th 2:3, 1Th 4:16-17)

Amen.

Our E-x-p-a-n-d-e-d basis for "The Departure" = God's Removal Of His Body!

Please be encouraged and edified...

 

[ewq1938]

Precious friend, thanks for your Valuable Input - our brief basis:

The Falling Away = “depart” from the faith? Or?:

“The Departure From Earth”?

"falling away" = apostasy? However, we, since the beginning, have had "rebellion against God!"

However, with "The" Definite Article in the Greek = "hee apostasia," we "could Now interpret" =

"The Falling Away ( The "Snatching Away" or "The Catching Away ) From The Earth,
By The LORD Himself To "Gather us Unto Himself" to "Be Caught Up" With The
Resurrected "dead" in CHRIST, To "Meet The LORD, In The Air!" (2Th 2:3, 1Th 4:16-17)

Amen.

Our E-x-p-a-n-d-e-d basis for "The Departure" = God's Removal Of His Body!

Please be encouraged and edified...

In other words Pretribbers are hoping for and wanting to commit "hee" apostasia. Don't "fall" for that :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Precious friend, thanks for your Valuable Input

You're welcome. Thanks for your kind words.

- our brief basis:

The Falling Away = “depart” from the faith? Or?:

“The Departure From Earth”?

"falling away" = apostasy? However, we, since the beginning, have had "rebellion against God!"

Of course. But, if you read all of 2 Thess 2, you should see that Paul was talking about a future time when wickedness was no longer restrained. Seems to me that a mass falling away from the faith is one of the things that would result from that. And he wrote about that elsewhere as well:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Can you see here that Paul was referring to some time in the future that he called "the latter times" and said at that point "some shall depart from the faith". Well, some were departing from the faith already when he wrote that, right? So, it would make no sense for him to point out that the same things happening then would also happen in the latter times. That would be something obvious and not worth pointing out. So, instead, he has to be talking about a time when more people than normal would be departing from the faith since it's clear that he intended his words to be noteworthy.

Our E-x-p-a-n-d-e-d basis for "The Departure" = God's Removal Of His Body!

Please be encouraged and edified...

Remember, Paul was talking about things that had to happen first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him after being removed from the earth (2 Thess 2:1-3). So, what you're actually saying is that he said the departure of the body of Christ had to occur first before...the departure of the body of Christ. That makes no sense.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Precious friend, thanks for your Valuable Input - our brief basis:

The Falling Away = “depart” from the faith? Or?:

“The Departure From Earth”?

"falling away" = apostasy? However, we, since the beginning, have had "rebellion against God!"

However, with "The" Definite Article in the Greek = "hee apostasia," we "could Now interpret" =

"The Falling Away ( The "Snatching Away" or "The Catching Away ) From The Earth,
By The LORD Himself To "Gather us Unto Himself" to "Be Caught Up" With The
Resurrected "dead" in CHRIST, To "Meet The LORD, In The Air!" (2Th 2:3, 1Th 4:16-17)

Amen.

Our E-x-p-a-n-d-e-d basis for "The Departure" = God's Removal Of His Body!

Please be encouraged and edified...

Yes
It simply means "departure"
Probably the rapture, but if postribbers go with "from the faith" it really has no bearing on the debate.
As if there is not a huge massive falling away right now.

The actual focus should be on the word "revealed"
The fact that it ONLY implies a window of observation at the advent of the AC is important in that we as pretribbers agree that the revealing of the AC can and will be BEFORE he takes any power at all.
Which lines up and authenticates the pretrib doctrine.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Yes
It simply means "departure"

Thanks, and, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, it can't mean a physical rapture. It specifically means a moral departure, apostasy. We can't just change what words have meant for hundreds/thousands of years.

Either side of the debate can use it for their talking points.
It could mean "departure from the faith" or just what it says "departure"
But all it really says is "departure" (literally "from standing")
But "from the faith" is implied.
The real issue is that pretribbers can just read it like it says and see it harmonize.
It matters not because we will always see departure from the faith. That is a gimmme

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thanks, and, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

View attachment 34676

Thanks!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

It it was Biblical, we could call it a fact.

Example: When verses tell us when the DotL begins and they parallel happening after the 6th seal, not before the 1st.

Or how Elders were in the heavenly scene before Christ; or how do Elders hold their own prayers?; or how they sing with angels that arnt redeemed; or how the 7 spirits of God are transferred to Christ from the old covenant to the new; or how Christ tells us those who over come will inherit all things in earlier Ch.’s yet the crystal sea is absent of people before the seals are opened...where are the overcomers if they were resurrected; or how none of the seals are called wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath. Wrath is not tribulation. We are appointed to tribulation whether small or great per the Bible.

The 4 horsemen begin the GT
Rev 6
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
That is great tribulation released from heaven.

The entire thing ,all 7 years are greet tribulation,but yes it does intensify at the last part.
The messianic Jews Are raptured in rev 14.
Towards the end of the gt
That would be your "prewrath" gathering,but it is by no means the rapture.
Rapture will be pretrib as Jesus declared emphatically.

 

[ewq1938]

Either side of the debate can use it for their talking points.
It could mean "departure from the faith" or just what it says "departure"

The word has a fixed meaning, a moral type of departure not a physical one.

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[The Light]

It it was Biblical, we could call it a fact.

Example: When verses tell us when the DotL begins and they parallel happening after the 6th seal, not before the 1st.

And yet you understand that wrath is not tribulation. The tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, Jacob being Israel. The first bride of Christ is already in heaven as part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Or how Elders were in the heavenly scene before Christ;

Terribly bad logic. Don't you think it odd that Christ is giving His message to the Churches in Rev 3 and yet you claim that Chirst is not in heaven yet. So using your logic, there should not be a Church to give a message to.

Using this type of bad logic Christ does not get born before Revelation 12
Revelation 12
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

or how do Elders hold their own prayers?; or how they sing with angels that arnt redeemed; or how the 7 spirits of God are transferred to Christ from the old covenant to the new; or how Christ tells us those who over come will inherit all things in earlier Ch.’s yet the crystal sea is absent of people before the seals are opened...where are the overcomers if they were resurrected;

Or how your bad logic causes a lack of understanding.

or how none of the seals are called wrath.

The 7th seal contains the trumpets of wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath. Wrath is not tribulation.

Exactly.

We are appointed to tribulation whether small or great per the Bible.

However, the fullness of the Gentiles will come in before he confirms a covenant with many for one week. In other words, the Church will not be on the earth when the great tribulation, the fifth seal occurs.

The Lord is at the door now. It will soon open and many will be running around believing the alien lie. How is it that you do not understand these things?

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th seal contains the trumpets of wrath.

That's false but why stop there? Is everything after the 7th seal part of the 7th seal?

The 7th seal is 30 min of silence in heaven. The angels being given trumpets is not part of that.

 

[The Light]

The 4 horsemen begin the GT
Rev 6
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
That is great tribulation released from heaven.

The fifth seal is the great tribulation which begins in the midst of the week.

The entire thing ,all 7 years are greet tribulation,but yes it does intensify at the last part.

The tribulation is OVER with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal

The messianic Jews Are raptured in rev 14.
Towards the end of the gt
That would be your "prewrath" gathering,but it is by no means the rapture.
Rapture will be pretrib as Jesus declared emphatically.

Excellent. Very few understand that there will be two raptures. Welcome to the forum!

 

[The Light]

That's false but why stop there? Is everything after the 7th seal part of the 7th seal?

The 7th seal is 30 min of silence in heaven. The angels being given trumpets is not part of that.

Please. Always with the bad logic.

Here. Using your logic when the 1st seal is opened it is the noise of thunder.

Revelation 6
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder.

Common sense goes a long way.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The word has a fixed meaning, a moral type of departure not a physical one.

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

https://www.bibletools.org/ 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "The falling away" is a translation of the Greek apostasia, meaning "departure," "forsaking," "defection," or "apostasy." In secular Greek, the word "is used politically of rebels" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 413). Thus, in the present context, it denotes a departure or apostasy from the faith, the revealed truth of God (see I Timothy 4:1). Such a defection from the true gospel and doctrine was a very real concern for the first-century apostles. Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude all warn of it in their letters. Despite their warnings, it did indeed occur as the century wore on. From the greek interlinear apostasia G646 n_ Nom Sg f FROM-STANDing That ball can be batted back and forth. The difference is, i can read it literally (from standing...departure) or with your implied additions. It makes no difference at all. The ac REVEALED pretrib right before the pretrib rapture. I am ok with "from the faith". It is really a gimme. Of course there will always be great departure from the faith. Look at the american gospel. Every denomination is moving towards secularism. Its kinda neat the way God just says "departure" though. Kinda adds to the pretrib doctrine in a way.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The fifth seal is the great tribulation which begins in the midst of the week.

The tribulation is OVER with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal


Excellent. Very few understand that there will be two raptures. Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!!!!!

The church raptured = The dead in Christ and the remnant bride (half the church).
The foolish virgins ( the other half left behind) get in through martyrdom,because they refuse the mark.
the 144k in heaven (raptured or martyred) right before those harvested with a sickle are raptured (rev 14)...the messianic Jews

Harvest is 3 or 4 parts depending on how you look at it.
The harvest of the earth is also 3 or 4 parts.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, Jacob being Israel.

And yet believers come out of it in the 5th seal and afterwards.

Terribly bad logic. Don't you think it odd that Christ is giving His message to the Churches in Rev 3 and yet you claim that Chirst is not in heaven yet.

No, because the messages to the churches are separate from the heavenly scene. Failure to see a distinction will always result in improper understanding. When you realize Ch.5 is a past event when Christ entered heaven and John witnessing it, everything else will open up. But you don’t, and ignorance is bliss.

how your bad logic causes a lack of understanding

That comment does not show anything but a defensive mechanism for one that doesn’t even contemplate logical conclusions. Questions should be asked and there should be no room for error if there is truth. But your hypothesis on the Elders falls flat when questions asked cannot be answered. And your failure to address them proves it; instead attacking me with my lack of understanding. Am a talking to an adult or a child? If an adult, why do you resort to these tactics?

 

[rebuilder 454]

And yet believers come out of it in the 5th seal and afterwards.

No, because the messages to the churches are separate from the heavenly scene. Failure to see a distinction will always result in improper understanding. When you realize Ch.5 is a past event when Christ entered heaven and John witnessing it, everything else will open up. But you don’t, and ignorance is bliss.

That comment does not show anything but a defensive mechanism for one that doesn’t even contemplate logical conclusions. Questions should be asked and there should be no room for error if there is truth. But your hypothesis on the Elders falls flat when questions asked cannot be answered. And your failure to address them proves it; instead attacking me with my lack of understanding. Am a talking to an adult or a child? If an adult, why do you resort to these tactics?

"No, because the messages to the churches are separate from the heavenly scene. Failure to see a distinction will always result in improper understanding. When you realize Ch.5 is a past event when Christ entered heaven and John witnessing it, everything else will open up. But you don’t, and ignorance is bliss."

What do you base this assertion on?
What significance are you placing on it?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Still tripping over the Word?

Having a hard time trusting in the words of Christ?

STOP listening to false prophets who say 'pre-trib' rapture!

Believe JESUS

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You just tried to make that verse indicate the rapture is after the gt.
Re read it.
ANGELS gather... not Jesus
They gather the elect FROM HEAVEN... not earth.
Definately not the gathering of the bride at the rapture.(half the church)
Postrib rapture is poorly thought out. Not in the bible at all.
But if you keep reading in mat 24 we do see the pretrib rapture,eloquently declared by Jesus. .

 

[rebuilder 454]

You can't even prove they are human. Jesus hasn't returned yet in the timeframe of that passage. The next chp shows Jesus isn't even in heaven, and when he arrives he looks like he has been slain. That's when he ascends from Earth to heaven and opens the seals, in the first century. No events occur when a seal is opened. It's all prophetic just like when he described teh same events in the OD. That was audio only, then John got video and audio and when the trumps sound, the events the seals described will happen in real time.




It doesn't show that. The only times the rapture is given a timeframe is twice, and both times the rapture happens after the trib is over, at the 7th trump. In the seals, that would be related to the 6th seal which is the 7th trump's events.

I think you would need Jesus examples to read Lot was removed AFTER sodom was destroyed, and Noah removed AFTER the flood.
That dilemma is insurmountable.
Not to mention that you are placing the dead in Christ resurrected AFTER the Messianic Jews are raptured during the gt in rev 14
Making 1 thes 4 into a lie. (...the dead in Christ rise first...)
Making postrib rapture impossible.
Only pretrib rapture fits

 

[rebuilder 454]

The actual timing of Christ's future return, which is only ONE TIME, is on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night". That is the last day of this present world.

In Revelation 16:15, within the 6th Vial timing, Jesus warned His Church that He comes "as a thief". Then the next verse speaks of the gathering of the enemy's armies for the battle of Armageddon, and then the destruction on the 7th final Vial. That reveals Jesus' coming on the 7th Vial. That is the same time of His coming at the end of Revelation 19 also.

1 Thessalonians 4 is where Apostle Paul gave us events about Christ's future coming to gather His Church. But the only timing Paul gave there for that was about the day of the resurrection in 1 Thess.4:16 with, "... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:". That confirms that the day of Christ's coming there to gather His Church is at the same time as the future 'resurrection' of the saints.

According to many Bible Scriptures, the future resurrection only will happen on the very last day of this world, which is the day when Jesus returns to gather His Church with those raised 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him.

Jesus himself indicated 3 comings.
One before the gt
one after
and one in rev 14 which is during the gt,