a non-eschatological Coming?

[Truth7t7]

No, "human being" is a perfectly good explanation of Man, mortal or immortal. What on earth do you think an "immortal" is if not a "human being?"

These kinds of arguments seem more deflective and judgmental than real. If you wish to categorize us, when we become immortal, as non-human, I don't think that's in the least biblical.

Quote: Randy Kluth Post #129
["I take the word of God here quite literally. He will come "just as he left," which was as a human being."]

"Human Beings" maintain "Natural Bodies" that "Die" physical mortal death

Jesus Christ maintained a glorified, immortal "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, that wasn't a "Human Body" as you claim

The "Truth" presented isnt deflective or judgemental as you claim, but is a scriptural fact, there is a natural body, and spiritual body, and they aren't the same under the words "Human Being" as you suggest and claim "Fact"!

1 Corinthians 15:44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[ScottA]

Of course he was speaking of his appearance as a man in the light of his planned coming to bear the cross! This has no bearing on the matter for me.

He was indeed saying that he would no longer be seen as such by men who were rejecting him. Jesus would die, and they would no longer be privileged to see him in his resurrected body. He was resurrected bodily, because Jesus said that he had a body of flesh and bone.

Luke 24.39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

The Disciples thought they were seeing Jesus as a "ghost," but Jesus was assuring them that he had arisen in a physical body. So indeed they had been privileged with seeing Jesus in his resurrection body, giving them the hope of resurrection for themselves.

But unbelievers who had met Jesus during his earthly ministry were not going to receive this assurance because they had not believed. A resurrection appearance was denied them.

This is not saying that unbelievers would never see Jesus physically again--only that *in their lifetimes* they would never again see Jesus, to assure them of salvation at the judgment seat of Christ.

No...you saying "This is not saying that unbelievers would never see Jesus physically again" is a direct contradiction of what He said. The context is not only those living at that time--but is "the world", meaning anywhere, anytime, never again in the world: "the world will see Me no more."

As I said, the Scriptures say not just that they will see Jesus in the heavenly position of power, but also that they would see him descend from heaven and assume power on earth. It is my thought that this is pretty much a simple recognition that Jesus is divine and taking control of the world. All men will have to acknowledge this when the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of God and of Christ. Rev 11.

No...you are adding things that are not written. Whether you are referring to meeting the Lord in the air, or His feet touching down on the Mount of Olives--you misunderstand, that is not what is meant. Only the saved see and meet Him in the clouds. And the Mount of Olives was split in two between the dead in Christ, and the living in Christ...which was that "sword" that He brought.

I take the word of God here quite literally. He will come "just as he left," which was as a human being. If they saw him go as a human being, they would also see him return as a human being. I don't need to "rethink" what is plainly being said. I don't need to explain the story in a way that fits my preconceived theology.

You misunderstand the event. By definition it was not an event of the flesh or even of the world--but of the Spirit--of God. He was taken up in the Spirit. If not, men would have witnessed His demise--but no, He was glorified...and it is not the flesh that is glorified, but God whom is spirit.

So, no, not "as He left" but as He was raised up (in the spirit).

 

[ScottA]

All people can say on their death bed, the world will see them no longer. That is a statement of fact. So you are never going to physically see your loved ones again. What is the resurrection for then, if not physical?

I am going to read the rest of you post... But you error already. You are confusing the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the tomb with His ascension and going to the Father, whom is spirit, and where flesh and blood "cannot inherit."

Jesus' bodily resurrection from the tomb was one event showing His victory over death. But His ascension was a completely different event. His ascension was not bodily, but rather, He was raised up in the Spirit.

The confusion here, is because the first revelations of the idea of being raised up were spoken to Israel who would die in the flesh and in their sins, but be raised up--they are the dead in Christ. Thus, it is not that they are raised up in the flesh, but rather that the grave would not keep them...for which many were seen raising from the grave after Christ's crucifixion. But it was a foreshadowing--again showing Christ's victory over death. But--no flesh and blood can ascend into the presence of God. Ascension is the event of becoming One with God, whom is spirit. It is a spiritual only event. God is spirit. Period.

This is what Paul referred to when he spoke of "rightly dividing the word of truth." The biblical fact is...the gospel narrative is one narrative--but was to two separate groups that only come together in Christ in the end. In order to fully understand the gospels therefore, they must be rightly divided between the two. The two groups "in Christ" are "the dead in Christ" (Israel) of whom Christ was the Last, and "the living in Christ" of whom Christ is the First. Thus, He clarified, because Israel came first but was not first to receive the Holy Spirit, that, "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

 

[Truth7t7]

I am going to read the rest of you post... But you error already. You are confusing the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the tomb with His ascension and going to the Father, whom is spirit, and where flesh and blood "cannot inherit."

Jesus' bodily resurrection from the tomb was one event showing His victory over death. But His ascension was a completely different event. His ascension was not bodily, but rather, He was raised up in the Spirit.

The confusion here, is because the first revelations of the idea of being raised up were spoken to Israel who would die in the flesh and in their sins, but be raised up--they are the dead in Christ. Thus, it is not that they are raised up in the flesh, but rather that the grave would not keep them...for which many were seen raising from the grave after Christ's crucifixion. But it was a foreshadowing--again showing Christ's victory over death. But--no flesh and blood can ascend into the presence of God. Ascension is the event of becoming One with God, whom is spirit. It is a spiritual only event. God is spirit. Period.

Your confusion is that Jesus didnt maintain a tangible body of flesh and bone that was 100% "Spiritual" that isnt interpreted as a transparent ghost flying around in the sky

This tangible "Spiritual Body" ate physical food, and could enter a room with doors shut, and could vanish out of mans sight

No place in scripture does it suggest this "Spiritual Body" changed form, your claim of "Flesh and Blood" pertains to the "Natural Human Body" and not the "Glorified Spiritual" body as seen below

Jesus Christ maintained the glorified Spiritual "Incorruptible" body of flesh and bone, that wasn't the natural human body of flesh and blood

1 Corinthians 15:44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[ScottA]

Quote: ScottA Post #125
["As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way."]

Truth7t7: No slander whatsoever as you falsely claim, you stated Jesus left this world as a "human being", and humans have living body's that "Die" physical death, your claim is 100% false!

Your claim that Jesus maintained a "Human Body" is 100% false!

Jesus Christ maintained a immortal "Glorified" body of flesh and bone, a body that was tangible, that ate physical food upon this earth, that could appear in a room with doors shut, that vanished out of humans sight

Jesus maintained a immortal, glorified, spiritual body of flesh and bone, being firstborn of the resurrection

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

No...here you are denying that Jesus conquered death. But He did. You are wrong.

He did rise from the dead in a flesh body--but He did not ascent to the Father as such. That would not be biblical: "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

You just don't understand what you are reading. What happened at His ascension was not the flesh being glorified, it was God whom is spirit being glorified. It was not an event of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

 

[Truth7t7]

No...here you are denying that Jesus conquered death. But He did. You are wrong.

He did rise from the dead in a flesh body--but He did not ascent to the Father as such. That would not be biblical: "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

You just don't understand what you are reading. What happened at His ascension was not the flesh being glorified, it was God whom is spirit being glorified. It was not an event of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

Answered in post #144 above

 

[Randy Kluth]

Quote: Randy Kluth Post #129
["I take the word of God here quite literally. He will come "just as he left," which was as a human being."]

"Human Beings" maintain "Natural Bodies" that "Die" physical mortal death

Jesus Christ maintained a glorified, immortal "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, that wasn't a "Human Body" as you claim

I don't believe Jesus maintained a "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone before his ascension into heaven. Jesus was just saying he was not a ghost, that he was a human being of flesh and bone.

He assumed an immortal, spiritual body when he ascended into heaven. At that point he took on a different kind of body, a glorified body. But he was still human, a physical human being.

I don't think when we were told Jesus is coming back just as he left that the concern was between a physical and a spiritual body. The difference between a mortal body and an immortal body was not the concern.

Rather, the concern was to know that the same person was coming back, indicating the same person that left. It was an assurance that those who grieved over losing him would regain him. If he came back as Deity without humanity, that reassurance would've been meaningless.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't believe Jesus maintained a "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone before his ascension into heaven. Jesus was just saying he was not a ghost, that he was a human being of flesh and bone.

He assumed an immortal, spiritual body when he ascended into heaven. At that point he took on a different kind of body, a glorified body. But he was still human, a physical human being.

I don't think when we were told Jesus is coming back just as he left that the concern was between a physical and a spiritual body. The difference between a mortal body and an immortal body was not the concern.

Rather, the concern was to know that the same person was coming back, indicating the same person that left. It was an assurance that those who grieved over losing him would regain him. If he came back as Deity without humanity, that reassurance would've been meaningless.

"We Strongly Disagree"

Scripture below clearly teaches that the resurrection of the dead, is seeing the "corruptible" body being raised "incorruptible" as a "Spiritual Body" and Jesus Christ was the firstfruit of the resurrection seen below

Your claim has Jesus Christ walking around in a "Human" corruptible body after the resurrection, in direct opposition to scripture

"We Strongly Disagree"

Jesus Is The Lord

"It Is Raised In Incorruption"

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No...you saying "This is not saying that unbelievers would never see Jesus physically again" is a direct contradiction of what He said. The context is not only those living at that time--but is "the world", meaning anywhere, anytime, never again in the world: "the world will see Me no more."

There is no contradiction at all. This is also how scholars interpret this, and you are not more learned than they are. The world, that is the world generally as a place of unbelief, will no longer see Jesus because he will die. Generally speaking, the world even today does not see him because he died and is no longer on earth. Not even believers see him.

But Jesus was making an exception for his Disciples and for some believers at that time who he said would see him, meaning they would see him after his resurrection. This was important as a testimony to the fact he had been resurrected.

He does not need to prove this by appearing all through history. Rather, he only had to establish the fact at that time before ascending into heaven. "Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe."

...Whether you are referring to meeting the Lord in the air, or His feet touching down on the Mount of Olives--you misunderstand, that is not what is meant. Only the saved see and meet Him in the clouds.

We are told in the book of Revelation that all will see him, and we are told that every knee will bow. That includes both believers and unbelievers. Only believers, however, obtain the resurrection unto glorification, the donning of immortal bodies. I would agree with you on that much.

...By definition it was not an event of the flesh or even of the world--but of the Spirit--of God. He was taken up in the Spirit. If not, men would have witnessed His demise--but no, He was glorified...and it is not the flesh that is glorified, but God whom is spirit.
So, no, not "as He left" but as He was raised up (in the spirit).

That sounds like Gnostic cults, who deny the physical resurrection of the saints. Dualism separates out the flesh as evil from the spirit as good. This dichotomy is Gnosticism or similar.

Although the Bible would have us subject our physical bodies to the Spirit of God, the thought is to align the physical with the spiritual, and not to exterminate, denigrate, or dispose of the physical.

 

[ewq1938]

Well your misunderstanding comes from the word generation and exactly what questions the disciples asked.

I understand the word. You seem not to understand what "all" means. One generation will see all the events, including the second coming and gathering of the saints by angels. Obviously those events did not take place.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I understand the word. You seem not to understand what "all" means. One generation will see all the events, including the second coming and gathering of the saints by angels. Obviously those events did not take place.

Not even the word "all" always means "all." ;) Let me give you an example.

I tell you that today will be a great day, good things happening, great weather, prosperous, success, etc. But I say it will sadly have a couple of things go wrong.

So then I say that despite the few exceptions, it will be a great day, with 3 or 4 really good things happening. So I tell you that "all these things," ie the 3 or 4 really good things happening, will certainly happen today.

As you can see, "all" doesn't always mean "all." When the conditions are set such that the set of things happening that day are referring only to the *good things* happening that day, then not everything that happens that day is included in the set of "good things.*

That's how it is in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus sets the parameters for the set of things viewed as "birth pains" leading up to the fall of the temple. Other things we're told will happen. But all "these things," ie the birth pains leading up to the fall of the temple will happen in "this generation."

In other words, the people who deserve this judgment because of what Jesus said they were doing right then would be the same ones to see judgment fall upon their nation. Obviously, some of them would die before that time. But the last person of that generation would not die before judgment fell upon the nation.

 

[ewq1938]

Not even the word "all" always means "all."

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238

While it can mean "any" but was only ever translated as "anyone" not once as "any", the main meaning of the word is various forms of "all" and that is the meaning used by Christ. One generation living before and during the Great Tribulation will see all the events Jesus described.

That means none of the Olivet Discourse events have happened except the possibility of the birth pangs which is signs that the Great Tribulation is near but they are things that happen all the time so they are generic, wars and famines etc. Only the appearance of a global empire led by a man who can perform miracles who claims to be god will be a certain sign that current generation is the one who will witness everything.

 

[Timtofly]

I am going to read the rest of you post... But you error already. You are confusing the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the tomb with His ascension and going to the Father, whom is spirit, and where flesh and blood "cannot inherit."

Jesus' bodily resurrection from the tomb was one event showing His victory over death. But His ascension was a completely different event. His ascension was not bodily, but rather, He was raised up in the Spirit.

The confusion here, is because the first revelations of the idea of being raised up were spoken to Israel who would die in the flesh and in their sins, but be raised up--they are the dead in Christ. Thus, it is not that they are raised up in the flesh, but rather that the grave would not keep them...for which many were seen raising from the grave after Christ's crucifixion. But it was a foreshadowing--again showing Christ's victory over death. But--no flesh and blood can ascend into the presence of God. Ascension is the event of becoming One with God, whom is spirit. It is a spiritual only event. God is spirit. Period.

This is what Paul referred to when he spoke of "rightly dividing the word of truth." The biblical fact is...the gospel narrative is one narrative--but was to two separate groups that only come together in Christ in the end. In order to fully understand the gospels therefore, they must be rightly divided between the two. The two groups "in Christ" are "the dead in Christ" (Israel) of whom Christ was the Last, and "the living in Christ" of whom Christ is the First. Thus, He clarified, because Israel came first but was not first to receive the Holy Spirit, that, "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

You are adding too much human understanding into your doctrine.

Paul claimed the physical was the corruptible becoming incorruptible. That deals with the physical. Then the putting on of immortality is putting on our spirit over the incorruptible physical body. That deals with the spiritual. The full image of God as a son of God is soul, body, and spirit.

There is currently the death of both the physical and spiritual. We are totally separated from the spirit. That is why the Holy Spirit is given to mankind as interest. There is not a "physical here" and a "spiritual there". Creation is fully spiritual and physical. We are just blind to the spiritual aspect of Creation outside of God's Word and the Holy Spirit. At the Second Coming that blindness will be removed from all of creation. That is why all on earth will see the angels and Satan. That is why the pit is opened and those angels will be loosed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238

While it can mean "any" but was only ever translated as "anyone" not once as "any", the main meaning of the word is various forms of "all" and that is the meaning used by Christ. One generation living before and during the Great Tribulation will see all the events Jesus described.

That means none of the Olivet Discourse events have happened except the possibility of the birth pangs which is signs that the Great Tribulation is near but they are things that happen all the time so they are generic, wars and famines etc. Only the appearance of a global empire led by a man who can perform miracles who claims to be god will be a certain sign that current generation is the one who will witness everything.

Don't agree. We all know what "all" means. Everything without exception.

However, when a number of events are mentioned that are set apart from all the events that are mentioned in the Discourse, and then these specific events are given the name "birth pains," then "all" refers to all the birth pains, and not to "all that Jesus mentioned throughout his ministry or throughout the Olivet Discourse! ;)

You see what I mean? Without defining what "all" refers to there is no limit to what it can apply--everything in the universe, everything on earth, all the hairs on your head, etc. In this case, Jesus had already established the parameters for the application of "all these things," and they belonged to the set of things called "birth pains." And they were specifically designed to prepare believers for the tragedy that was about to befall disobedient Israel.

 

[Curtis]

Okay, you're just stating what you want to *believe.* You haven't in the least looked at my concerns, nor addressed any of the facts I provided. The passage in Luke 21 plainly says, quite explicitly, that the fall of the temple is the beginning point of the Jewish Punishment. And yes, it is called a "Jewish Punishment," and not the last 7 years of the age!

You just ignore this and assert your belief because you want to believe all those who teach this. Indeed it is a popular eschatology.

But it is groundless for the reasons I gave you. And in fact, many Christians throughout history would've rejected your "7 years Tribulation" theory as a corruption of the "70 Weeks prophecy" of Daniel.

This view has become very popular among Dispensationalists. And Dispensationalism itself is based on the false Pretribulational belief.

My concern here is that the *belief system* is viewed as more important than what the Scriptures are actually teaching. Scriptures are being interpreted to fit the theology, and not the other way around!

And you’ve ignored the incontrovertible, irrefutable, and unequivocal fact that the great tribulation is for forty two months, 3.5 years, per scripture.

And before that the two witnesses prophecy for exactly 3.5 years and are killed at the beginning of the great tribulation and it’s 3.5 years.

The temple was destroyed because they knew not the time of their visitation, and is not called the tribulation.

It’s crystal clear that the tribulation period is 7 years and is divided into general tribulation and great tribulation.

And Matthew 24 shows the great tribulation occurring after the mid 70th week son of perdition/abomination of desolation event, and the rapture occurs.

After you deny that, I will explain the clear scripture to you.

 

[Marty fox]

And you’ve ignored the incontrovertible, irrefutable, and unequivocal fact that the great tribulation is for forty two months, 3.5 years, per scripture.

And before that the two witnesses prophecy for exactly 3.5 years and are killed at the beginning of the great tribulation and it’s 3.5 years.

The temple was destroyed because they knew not the time of their visitation, and is not called the tribulation.

It’s crystal clear that the tribulation period is 7 years and is divided into general tribulation and great tribulation.

And Matthew 24 shows the great tribulation occurring after the mid 70th week son of perdition/abomination of desolation event, and the rapture occurs.

After you deny that, I will explain the clear scripture to you.

Actually it’s not a fact that the great tribulation is 3.5 years because the bible doesn’t say that. You are confusing the great tribulation with the wrath of God

The bible shows that the great tribulation is on the saints and it started on the day Stephen was killed and it is still happening today.

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Curtis]

Actually it’s not a fact that the great tribulation is 3.5 years because the bible doesn’t say that. You are confusing the great tribulation with the wrath of God

The bible shows that the great tribulation is on the saints and it started on the day Stephen was killed and it is still happening today.

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Get real.

The great tribulation is when the beast we call the antichrist gives the mark of the beast and makes war on the saints, which Revelation says is for 42 months, per the scripture I gave you.

Only believers show up in revelation as martyrs coming out of the tribulation, because those who take the mark aren’t killed, but are tossed in the lake of fire after judgment for taking it.

And after the mid trib rapture, there are a lot of people who get saved, and they end up as martyrs fornot taking the mark.

Your eschatology is way off the beam.

 

[Truth7t7]

And you’ve ignored the incontrovertible, irrefutable, and unequivocal fact that the great tribulation is for forty two months, 3.5 years, per scripture.

And before that the two witnesses prophecy for exactly 3.5 years and are killed at the beginning of the great tribulation and it’s 3.5 years.

The temple was destroyed because they knew not the time of their visitation, and is not called the tribulation.

It’s crystal clear that the tribulation period is 7 years and is divided into general tribulation and great tribulation.

And Matthew 24 shows the great tribulation occurring after the mid 70th week son of perdition/abomination of desolation event, and the rapture occurs.

After you deny that, I will explain the clear scripture to you.

"False Claim" that 3.5 years of tribulation exist on earth "After" the (Two Witnesses) are killed and raised to heaven

The (Two Witnesses) 1260 days are exactly the same time frame of (The Beast's) 42 months, parallel time frames in a 3.5 year tribulation, not consecutive of 7 years as dispensationalism falsely teaches

You will closely note that shortly after the (Two Witnesses) are raised, verse 15 below sees the 7thTrump (The End)

You will closely note verse 18 below is the (Final Judgement) The End

Revelation 11:7-18KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Marty fox]

Get real.

The great tribulation is when the beast we call the antichrist gives the mark of the beast and makes war on the saints, which Revelation says is for 42 months, per the scripture I gave you.

Only believers show up in revelation as martyrs coming out of the tribulation, because those who take the mark aren’t killed, but are tossed in the lake of fire after judgment for taking it.

And after the mid trib rapture, there are a lot of people who get saved, and they end up as martyrs fornot taking the mark.

Your eschatology is way off the beam.

I did say that the great tribulation is on the saints it was via apostate Israel and Rome and is still happening today. My point was that the great tribulation is on the church and gets confused with the wrath of God which in on the world.

Why do you think that the antichrist and the beast are the same?

John is the only writer in the bible to use the term antichrist in his epistles and this very same John wrote revelation and he didn’t use the term antichrist in revelation at all but used the term the beast do you ever wonder why?

If you read the four times in the bible that the term antichrist is mentioned you will see a totally different description than how John describes the beast of revelation and its because they are different beings.

I am saying exactly what the bible says and shows

Where is there a mid trib rapture in the bible?

I don’t believe in a pre or mid trib rapture because the bible doesn’t show it or teach it. Paul teaches that the rapture happens at the last trumpet and the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in revelation.

My eschatology agrees with the bible

 

[Randy Kluth]

And you’ve ignored the incontrovertible, irrefutable, and unequivocal fact that the great tribulation is for forty two months, 3.5 years, per scripture.

I've never denied that there is a 3.5 years reign of Antichrist, but I do deny that it is the Great Tribulation of Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Now *where* does this Great Distress say it is 3.5 years? The 3.5 years comes from Dan 7, where it is given as the reign of Antichrist--not the Great Tribulation! You are confusing the two things. The Reign of Antichrist is not the Great Tribulation! The Great Tribulation is defined in the Olivet Discourse as the Wrath of God against the Jewish People, beginning with the destruction of the Jewish temple!

I don't expect you to address this point, because quite frankly, you can't. This is just what the Bible teaches, Curtis. Please adjust your theology to the Bible. Don't adjust what the Bible says to your preconceived theology!