a non-eschatological Coming?

[ScottA]

John 14.19 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

You have quoted the above passage a number of times, and I wasn't really sure why. I haven't been following your arguments with others. Are you saying that when Jesus comes again at his 2nd Coming he will come as God, and not as a Man? I'm not sure that's heretical, because many Christians have believed that Jesus returns to Deity, and leaves his humanity behind.

I don't happen to believe that--I'm just not sure that such a statement is a heretical belief. Personally, I think John 14.19 is talking about Jesus' death, that most Jews would see Jesus die and no longer see him alive. But Jesus' disciples and others would see Jesus resurrected.

Is this not how you see it? If not, how do you see it?

Jesus was really clear, even to his accusers, that they would see him--but "I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” He did not say he was returning to earth physically in the flesh at all.

So, no, I would not say that it was because he was talking about his death, but rather what would come "hereafter."

But, yes, Jesus has been raised up to glory--the glory of God, whom is spirit. In other words, "hereafter" everything "is spirit."

That is what He said. Clearly. But the flesh seeks the flesh, and there are many who speak against the Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

The poster has denied that "human eyes on this earth" will literally see Jesus Christ in the heavens, he has used John 14:19 to support this claim

You have quoted me, and [only] part of the scriptures, and will not even acknowledge John 14:19 as also being true.

But nowhere have you quoted the scriptures that say "human eyes on this earth" will literally see Jesus Christ in the heavens" (as you say) --because it isn't in the scriptures.

It is a false claim. Not the truth. You can't quote it.

 

[ScottA]

How could Christ establish His Kingdom on earth without coming to earth? You have misunderstood and misrepresented Daniel 7 (which ties into the rest of the book of Daniel. There is no such nonsense as a "non-eschatological" coming.

Jesus answered that question:

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. John 17:20-23​

Daniel's vision of the son of man "coming in the clouds of heaven" does not refer to Jesus' first coming, but his second. But there are no moisture clouds in heaven--the term simply means above...as opposed to below. And how did Jesus first come? "Being made in the likeness of men." In other words, Jesus stipulated that His coming again would not be "in the likeness of men", but in the likeness of God above.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus was really clear, even to his accusers, that they would see him--but "I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” He did not say he was returning to earth physically in the flesh at all.

So, no, I would not say that it was because he was talking about his death, but rather what would come "hereafter."

But, yes, Jesus has been raised up to glory--the glory of God, whom is spirit. In other words, "hereafter" everything "is spirit."

That is what He said. Clearly. But the flesh seeks the flesh, and there are many who speak against the Spirit.

Okay, thanks for your viewpoint. I don't agree, but it's nice to know where you're coming from.

I don't think Jesus was speaking in John 14 of his Return, except in connection with the reference to our resurrection from the dead. People wouldn't see him after his death during their lifetime unless they were granted a resurrection appearance. Many people would not see him again except in the eternal judgment at his Coming.

When you reference that even Jesus' accusers would see him "sitting at the right hand of the Power," it isn't saying just that they were going to see him spiritually, as I see it. That was certainly the sense he was giving, that they would see his spiritual position as divine judge.

But it goes on to say that they would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven." That means they actually see him physically appear on earth from heaven.

I'll be the 1st to admit I don't know how this happens. I might think, like you, that this is just a spiritual revelation except for the fact that we read in Acts 1 Jesus is coming back just as he left. And when he left, he was a physical human being.

Anyway, I do think it's worth thinking about. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[ScottA]

Okay, thanks for your viewpoint. I don't agree, but it's nice to know where you're coming from.

I don't think Jesus was speaking in John 14 of his Return, except in connection with the reference to our resurrection from the dead. People wouldn't see him after his death during their lifetime unless they were granted a resurrection appearance. Many people would not see him again except in the eternal judgment at his Coming.

When you reference that even Jesus' accusers would see him "sitting at the right hand of the Power," it isn't saying just that they were going to see him spiritually, as I see it. That was certainly the sense he was giving, that they would see his spiritual position as divine judge.

But it goes on to say that they would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven." That means they actually see him physically appear on earth from heaven.

I'll be the 1st to admit I don't know how this happens. I might think, like you, that this is just a spiritual revelation except for the fact that we read in Acts 1 Jesus is coming back just as he left. And when he left, he was a physical human being.

Anyway, I do think it's worth thinking about. Thanks for your thoughts.

How is it that you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Jesus saying "the world sees me no more" is not final? Do you really think that approaching His death that was planned and executed since before the foundation of the world, that He did not speak exactly according to appearance? Like casually off the cuff?

Is that really how you yourself want to be "known where you're coming from?"

As for Jesus' accusers, He very clearly told them that "afterward", after they crucified Him, they were going to meet their Maker, "at the right hand of Power." And you think that He might have meant on earth rather than before the throne of God? "Nice to know."

As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way. So...what "same manner" would you say the angel of the Lord meant that He would return--the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7), or the likeness of God whom is spirit? You want to rethink that?

 

[Truth7t7]

.But nowhere have you quoted the scriptures that say "human eyes on this earth" will literally see Jesus Christ in the heavens" (as you say) --because it isn't in the scriptures.

It is a false claim. Not the truth. You can't quote it.

Scripture below clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will visibly be seen by human eyes upon this earth at his future return

You deny the glorious return of Jesus Christ in the heavens seen below, and that human eyes will witness this event, it's that simple

The future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, is a foundational pillar within the Christian faith and orthodoxy

It's not going to change Scott, Gods words of truth before your eyes

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way. So...what "same manner" would you say the angel of the Lord meant that He would return--the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7), or the likeness of God whom is spirit? You want to rethink that?

Your claim that Jesus maintained a "Human Body" is 100% false!

Jesus Christ maintained a immortal "Glorified" body of flesh and bone, a body that was tangible, that ate physical food upon this earth, that could appear in a room with doors shut, that vanished out of humans sight

Jesus maintained a immortal, glorified, spiritual body of flesh and bone, being firstborn of the resurrection

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Curtis]

He said this Great Tribulation is a punishment of the Jewish People by dispersion, beginning in 70 AD. It would last the *entire NT age* and end only at the Return of Christ from heaven. How is this "impossible?" On the contrary, it is the *only* possible meaning!

.

The entire tribulation is Daniels 70th week, and as such is 7 years, and the great tribulation is the last half, being 42 months long:

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The great tribulation does not last the entire NT age, in fact it hasn’t even started yet.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How is it that you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Jesus saying "the world sees me no more" is not final? Do you really think that approaching His death that was planned and executed since before the foundation of the world, that He did not speak exactly according to appearance? Like casually off the cuff?

Of course he was speaking of his appearance as a man in the light of his planned coming to bear the cross! This has no bearing on the matter for me.

He was indeed saying that he would no longer be seen as such by men who were rejecting him. Jesus would die, and they would no longer be privileged to see him in his resurrected body. He was resurrected bodily, because Jesus said that he had a body of flesh and bone.

Luke 24.39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

The Disciples thought they were seeing Jesus as a "ghost," but Jesus was assuring them that he had arisen in a physical body. So indeed they had been privileged with seeing Jesus in his resurrection body, giving them the hope of resurrection for themselves.

But unbelievers who had met Jesus during his earthly ministry were not going to receive this assurance because they had not believed. A resurrection appearance was denied them.

This is not saying that unbelievers would never see Jesus physically again--only that *in their lifetimes* they would never again see Jesus, to assure them of salvation at the judgment seat of Christ.

As for Jesus' accusers, He very clearly told them that "afterward", after they crucified Him, they were going to meet their Maker, "at the right hand of Power." And you think that He might have meant on earth rather than before the throne of God? "Nice to know."

As I said, the Scriptures say not just that they will see Jesus in the heavenly position of power, but also that they would see him descend from heaven and assume power on earth. It is my thought that this is pretty much a simple recognition that Jesus is divine and taking control of the world. All men will have to acknowledge this when the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of God and of Christ. Rev 11.

As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way. So...what "same manner" would you say the angel of the Lord meant that He would return--the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7), or the likeness of God whom is spirit? You want to rethink that?

I take the word of God here quite literally. He will come "just as he left," which was as a human being. If they saw him go as a human being, they would also see him return as a human being. I don't need to "rethink" what is plainly being said. I don't need to explain the story in a way that fits my preconceived theology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The entire tribulation is Daniels 70th week, and as such is 7 years, and the great tribulation is the last half, being 42 months long:

Okay, you're just stating what you want to *believe.* You haven't in the least looked at my concerns, nor addressed any of the facts I provided. The passage in Luke 21 plainly says, quite explicitly, that the fall of the temple is the beginning point of the Jewish Punishment. And yes, it is called a "Jewish Punishment," and not the last 7 years of the age!

You just ignore this and assert your belief because you want to believe all those who teach this. Indeed it is a popular eschatology.

But it is groundless for the reasons I gave you. And in fact, many Christians throughout history would've rejected your "7 years Tribulation" theory as a corruption of the "70 Weeks prophecy" of Daniel.

This view has become very popular among Dispensationalists. And Dispensationalism itself is based on the false Pretribulational belief.

My concern here is that the *belief system* is viewed as more important than what the Scriptures are actually teaching. Scriptures are being interpreted to fit the theology, and not the other way around!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those are future events the last generation will witness.

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

He said ALL not SOME.

Well your misunderstanding comes from the word generation and exactly what questions the disciples asked.

First generation is genea which basically means people. So yes it is true that the Jewish people will not pass until all fulfilled, not just a time frame.

Second the disciples asked three questions the olivet discourse answers.

1. when will the temple be thrown down?
2. what is the sign of your coming
3. What is the sign of the end of the age!

Teh very hisatoric fact that when Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in 66 AD, then left to Rome to see His Father drowned Cesar and all Jewish Christians fled to Pella is proof this is historical. The fact that the temple was left without one stone upon another is also proof this fulfilled the Luke prophecy. They set fire to the temple, it burnt so hot that the gold melted between teh stones, so Romans tore the temple apart to get teh gold!

Most of teh rest is signs for the church age and then also for the end times.

 

[Timtofly]

How is it that you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Jesus saying "the world sees me no more" is not final? Do you really think that approaching His death that was planned and executed since before the foundation of the world, that He did not speak exactly according to appearance? Like casually off the cuff?

Is that really how you yourself want to be "known where you're coming from?"

As for Jesus' accusers, He very clearly told them that "afterward", after they crucified Him, they were going to meet their Maker, "at the right hand of Power." And you think that He might have meant on earth rather than before the throne of God? "Nice to know."

As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way. So...what "same manner" would you say the angel of the Lord meant that He would return--the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7), or the likeness of God whom is spirit? You want to rethink that?

All people can say on their death bed, the world will see them no longer. That is a statement of fact. So you are never going to physically see your loved ones again. What is the resurrection for then, if not physical?

One statement of fact cannot refute another statement that says many will see the Lamb at the Second Coming.

"Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."

Do you not accept a physical resurrection one day? The world cannot see into that heavenly city, but Jesus is still physically there. When He returns it is physical. The world will see Him again. "No more" does not mean for eternity. It just means a stop in seeing Jesus on earth. Not even his disciples saw Him after He ascended. Yet Jesus said because He lives, they will live also. If you are going to be that dogmatic on the "no more" part, you should also be claiming the disciples are still alive and never died. "Ye shall live also" is just as true as the "no more" part. Have you met any of those disciples that are still alive today, and the world can still see them?

The fact the world will see Him no more stops when at the Second Coming the world will again see Him. If Jesus had never claimed to return. Then you would say they are just making that up. Yet Jesus did claim to return. Verse 3:

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Do you think it is a secret return without any events or effects on the world? Where does Jesus claim the world will not see Him at His return? Why not quote that verse, instead? If Jesus is going away physically of course no one saw Him any more after that. At least not when they were physically alive on the earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

”lexicon”
well you must decide for yourself of course, but i would say maybe because you cannot Quote “read the Word” or “study the Word” or even “the Bible is the Word?”

More than a lexicon. I don't have a clue what you are trying to accuse me of with your last line.

 

[ScottA]

Scripture below clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will visibly be seen by human eyes upon this earth at his future return

You deny the glorious return of Jesus Christ in the heavens seen below, and that human eyes will witness this event, it's that simple

The future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, is a foundational pillar within the Christian faith and orthodoxy

It's not going to change Scott, Gods words of truth before your eyes

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

No...that is you translating, adding, taking away, and teaching.

Try again only using quotes of scripture.

You can't.

 

[ScottA]

Your claim that Jesus maintained a "Human Body" is 100% false!

Jesus Christ maintained a immortal "Glorified" body of flesh and bone, a body that was tangible, that ate physical food upon this earth, that could appear in a room with doors shut, that vanished out of humans sight

Jesus maintained a immortal, glorified, spiritual body of flesh and bone, being firstborn of the resurrection

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I did not say that. That is slander. Stop or be reported.

I claimed only what is true: That God is spirit, and Jesus went to be with the Father. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

You, on the other hand, give glory to the flesh, rather than the Spirit.

 

[Truth7t7]

I did not say that. That is slander. Stop or be reported.

I claimed only what is true: That God is spirit, and Jesus went to be with the Father. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

You, on the other hand, give glory to the flesh, rather than the Spirit.

Quote: ScottA Post #125
["As for how Jesus left, He left the world as a human being--but He did not inherit the kingdom of heaven that way."]

Truth7t7: No slander whatsoever as you falsely claim, you stated Jesus left this world as a "human being", and humans have living body's that "Die" physical death, your claim is 100% false!

Your claim that Jesus maintained a "Human Body" is 100% false!

Jesus Christ maintained a immortal "Glorified" body of flesh and bone, a body that was tangible, that ate physical food upon this earth, that could appear in a room with doors shut, that vanished out of humans sight

Jesus maintained a immortal, glorified, spiritual body of flesh and bone, being firstborn of the resurrection

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

More than a lexicon. I don't have a clue what you are trying to accuse me of with your last line.

i cant imagine what might supercede a lexicon; let’s hear it!
(speaking in tongues, am i? :))
and there are no accusations in there that i am aware of rn? have a good one, gotta run

I don't have a clue what you are trying

and dont take this wrong ok, but that is all plain english up there, and what you are doing here is a great way to dodge the issue eh
we only fool ourselves in the end, or so they say

God created language for us to communicate. He knows how to use language

also, this doesn’t seem to take into account “speaking in tongues,” which is im sure some religious experiential thing to most believers at first…point being He knows how to confuse language, and fwiw i am not finding where Yah “created” language at all? Although that seems pretty strange, surely in there somewhere? dunno
ok, bye

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well your misunderstanding comes from the word generation and exactly what questions the disciples asked.

First generation is genea which basically means people. So yes it is true that the Jewish people will not pass until all fulfilled, not just a time frame.

Many words have more than one meaning. Yes, "genea" can refer to the people of Israel or to a single "generation" of anywhere from 20-70 years. It is the latter meaning that holds sway here because it is *context* that determines which meaning applies to "genea."

Jesus had just addressed his "generation" specifically in a time period, namely those who were abusing the Law at that time and those who were rejecting him as Messiah. So just finding that "genea" can refer generally to the people of Israel does not really count for anything.

It is how the word is being applied *in context* that is determinative. And it's clear that Jesus is speaking of a short time period, referring to those who were presently sinning, abusing the Law, and rejecting him as Messiah who would, within 40 years, suffer the Roman punishment in 70 AD.

Second the disciples asked three questions the olivet discourse answers.

1. when will the temple be thrown down?
2. what is the sign of your coming
3. What is the sign of the end of the age!

Jesus quite specifically answered these questions. By implication he was also answering what the signs were *not,* since the Disciples had not understood that these beautiful buildings built for the worship of God were actually being rejected by God!

The initial "birth pains," therefore, were not signs of the impending coming of Christ's Kingdom, but rather, signs that judgment was about to fall on Jerusalem for an entire age! They would begin with signs of Roman warfare and signs of God's displeasure with Israel, and end with an age-long Dispersion of the Jewish People throughout the earth.

The sign that they were looking for, the sign of the 2nd Coming, would not be something that they could anticipate at any rate, since by the time it happens it would be too late. His coming would be from heaven to instantly change the earth, bringing wholesale judgment upon all on earth.

The only way to prepare for the 2nd Coming was by living for Messiah today. And that was sorely needed in light of the fact Israel was in great apostasy, as indicated by the imminent Roman judgment Jesus was foretelling would happen "in this generation."

The springing forth of the "fig tree" was not the sign of restoration, but rather, a false sign of summer, indicating the birth pains would end in miscarriage. Israel would go through a long age of waiting until the remnant of faith finally receives a nation of faith at the coming of Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

I take the word of God here quite literally. He will come "just as he left," which was as a human being. If they saw him go as a human being, they would also see him return as a human being. I don't need to "rethink" what is plainly being said. I don't need to explain the story in a way that fits my preconceived theology.

You explain the glorified resurrected body in your post, then you use the term "Human Being" which is a false representation concerning the immortal, "glorified body" of Jesus Christ, he didnt leave this earth as a "Human Being" as you claim

Jesus Christ maintained a immortal "Glorified" body of flesh and bone, a body that was tangible, that ate physical food upon this earth, that could appear in a room with doors shut, that vanished out of humans sight

Jesus maintained a immortal, glorified, spiritual body of flesh and bone, being firstborn of the resurrection

Acts 1:9-11KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You explain the glorified resurrected body in your post, then you use the term "Human Being" which is a false representation concerning the immortal, "glorified body" of Jesus Christ, he didnt leave this earth as a "Human Being" as you claim

No, "human being" is a perfectly good explanation of Man, mortal or immortal. What on earth do you think an "immortal" is if not a "human being?"

These kinds of arguments seem more deflective and judgmental than real. If you wish to categorize us, when we become immortal, as non-human, I don't think that's in the least biblical.