A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK @GEN2REV

Jesus says that Jesus would raise up Jesus from the dead (John 2:19-22), and God raised Jesus up from the dead (Acts 2:24); therefore, Jesus is God! Here are the relevant passages.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. (John 2:19-22).

"God raised Him up" (Apostle Peter referencing "Him" to Jesus, Acts 2:24).

Christians believe Christ.

Christ declares Jesus to be God as shown above.
]
Christ declares the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We Christian's blessed Lord Jesus is God with us (Matthew 1:23 Immanuel), so Jesus, is truly Almighty YHWH God with us (Revelation 1:8), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4)!

 

[PinSeeker]

"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God."

~ Athenasian Creed ~​

Since nothing like this exists in reality...

What you say here is not true at all. Marriage ~ which is instituted by God ~ is an example. Do not man and wife become one flesh when joined in marriage? There are many, many lesser examples of a multiplicity of persons being one entity (nations, businesses, sports teams, etc.). So to say "nothing like this exists in reality" is just not reality at all, and even a denial of it.

...this is the myth Paul warned about in Timothy...

Again, not true...

...the very thing John was debunking...

Absolutely not true; one of John's themes in writing his gospel was, as I said, proving Jesus is God in the flesh, and he did, over and over and over again throughout.

...and which infiltrated he early church.

and has endured to this day and will continue to endure. as Isaiah and Peter say of God's Word. And also Gamaliel:

"...if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God..." (Acts 5)

And so it is. This is the great test of pretty much anything, to determine if it is of God or not.

We could ignore reality...

We could, but we certainly agree that that's not a good idea.

...and say that only those with some secret knowledge that means three equaling one as the Creed avers.

It's certainly not a secret. I point out what Paul said again (in Romans 1), that "what can be known about God is plain to (all), because God has shown it to (all). For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

Of course now we're entering Gnostic territory.

Well, maybe you are, but it sounds like we agree (again) that that's not a good thing.

Plato was a big promoter of ignoring reality in favor of some unknowable power in the unseen world.

Plato was an interesting character, like I said before. But again... Well, see above. God's power is certainly not unknowable or un-seeable.

God is totally opposite. He wants us to know and understand. He uses words so we can understand, not just believe that which makes no sense.

Absolutely agree.

Of course since He wrote to an ancient Middle Eastern people, Jews, He spoke in terms they would understand.

That He did. And we have to put ourselves in their time and place to be able to understand Scripture, and sometimes ~ sometimes ~ this takes a bit of effort.

There is a rich field of research to see how they understood the word "logos" in John 1 instead of just substituting "Jesus" for it.

Sure, and it's certainly worth delving into... as long as it's the right research. :) But all we really need to know John tells us in the very first chapter of his gospel.

I think you are a good sincere Christian with a good handle on the scriptures.

I think you are good and sincere, Rich, and have a good handle on Scripture. The problem is that you don't, um, recognize Jesus. Maybe you are like Mary Magdalene, who was kept from recognizing Him for a brief time.

But we all look through a dark glass...

That we do; our faith is not yet sight. But that does not mean that we, as Christians, are not yet able to see at all.

...so I understand those who don't think like myself and a growing number of Christians.

No, I don't think you do... :) Or, if you do... yeah, I'm hearing those Simon and Garfunkel lyrics (The Boxer) again... :)

Nonetheless, every day there are more Trinitarians who take an honest look at the matter and end up believing Jesus is actually the son of the one YHWH.

You can't say that with any certainty or accuracy at all, Rich, let alone credibility. I would say, though, that there are a growing number of people who, for one reason or another, walk away from Christianity, though. They may come back, like the prodigal son, but they may not, as they may be as those who, as John says, "(go) out from us that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2). But God is still growing His kingdom ~ building His church upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone. It is in Him that the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2.

'Round and 'round we go, huh? :)

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[PinSeeker]

...an entity is a singular being - impossible to be multiple people/persons.

As I said to Rich, GEN2REV, marriage ~ which is instituted by God ~ is an earthly example. Do not man and wife become one flesh when joined in marriage? God says it, so it must be true. There are many, many lesser examples of a multiplicity of persons being one entity (nations, businesses, sports teams, etc.). So to say "nothing like this exists in reality" is just not reality at all, and even a denial of it.

As I posted, the Psalm from Chronicles makes very clear that God is a singular Him

Agreed, as I said previously.

..and a solo individual and nothing more than that in number.

Yeah, yet again, we are agreed in one sense, but in the other absolutely not.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

In your contempt of the unchanging God YHWH, Rich R, you deny the Word of God who says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

What could be a bigger change than God supposedly becoming flesh? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Rich R]

Rich R said:
"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God."
~ Athenasian Creed ~
Since nothing like this exists in reality...​

What you say here is not true at all. Marriage ~ which is instituted by God ~ is an example. Do not man and wife become one flesh when joined in marriage? There are many, many lesser examples of a multiplicity of persons being one entity (nations, businesses, sports teams, etc.). So to say "nothing like this exists in reality" is just not reality at all, and even a denial of it.

God does use figures of speech throughout the scriptures. A figure of speech is used to emphasize something and, by its nature, does not describe reality. I have a wife. At the moment she is about 30 miles away from me. Clearly, we are not literally one flesh. The same applies to Jesus and God being one as well as all Christians being one.

Absolutely not true; one of John's themes in writing his gospel was, as I said, proving Jesus is God in the flesh, and he did, over and over and over again throughout.

Here's what John actually said.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

Nothing there even resembles God becoming flesh. I keep asking you to do a study on the word logos. It is related to the Hebrew words "memra" or "dabar" and was a very typical moniker the Jews used for God. John says in the beginning was God, not Jesus, and it agrees perfectly with Gen 1:1.

Translated as it is in most Bibles, John 1:1 has a glaring contradiction.

​

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

It's that little word "with" that creates a problem. It is a logical disconnect that something can be with something else and be that something else at the same time. As usually mistranslated, Part B of the verse is talking about 2 people, but part 3 is talking about one person. It has to be one or the other. It can't be both. How do we solve it? By looking at the word "with." It is the Greek word "pros." If we ascertain what pros means, we can clear up the contradiction.

G4314 πρός pros (pros') prep.
1. toward (i.e. forward to).
2. (by contraction) to.
3. unto.
4. alongside (i.e. by the side, laying or leaning against).
5. among.
6. pertaining to (i.e. at the side of).
7. (contrary, of an object) directly against.
8. (contrary, of people or issues) specifically against.
9. (genitive) specifically for.
10. (genitive) particularly for.
11. (genitive, of time or limit) just for.
12. (dative case) by the side of (i.e. near to).
13. (accusative case, usually) the place, time, occasion, or respect (which is the destination of the relation (i.e. where or for which it is predicated)).
14. (comparative case) it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.
15. (repeatedly) for (when repeated in a long list).
16. (Note) (a few other similar meanings in context).

As you can see, the normal meaning of "pros" is not "with." There are other Greek prepositions that are used to describe one thing being with another. Pros is used more than 600 times and only a half dozen of those times is it translated "with" and it is not even the best translation in those verses.

The simplest way to understand "pros" is the it indicates a reference or a pertaining to something. John was saying the logos pertained to God or referenced God, not that it was with God. As I recall, the Greek phrase "pros ton theon" is used about 20 times. Find them and you'll see that the translators used "with God" only one time, in John 1:1. All other times it is translated as, "to" or "towards" God, which translations perfectly line up with the meaning of the word "pros" as defined in Strong's and any other concordance out there. It's very common and basic Greek grammar.

John wanted to counteract the Gnostic view of the logos, so he went to great lengths to tell us the the true logos is God. The logos was in the beginning. Only God was in the beginning. He then went on to say the the logos had reference, or pointed to God, and then, to seal it all up, he said the logos was God. Now we don't have to explain two entities in part b being the same as one entity in part c. Most importantly, we do not have to abandon logic and the normal usage of words to get the meaning John intended.

Verse 14 simply says that God dwelt in Jesus (many verses say just that) and in that sense the logos, God, became flesh. But it's an abomination to say that God literally became flesh. I would think that even more true for those who believe God does not change. I mean going from God to flesh is about as big a change as one can imagine.

John also reports Jesus saying,

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

God, YHWH specifically, is the only true God and Jesus is the one He sent. There is no way short of abandoning the meaning of simple words and grammar that Jesus wasn't saying anything other than his Father is the only true God. Period. Why does this need any commentary? In any case, John 1:1 must agree with this verse as well as John 20:31.

I think you are good and sincere, Rich, and have a good handle on Scripture. The problem is that you don't, um, recognize Jesus.

Well, I certainly don't recognize the Athenasian "God the Son," but I've been quite forthcoming in saying that Jesus is the son of God. I don't have to refer to any creed to see that. I can find that about 30 times in the scriptures.

Rich R said:

Nonetheless, every day there are more Trinitarians who take an honest look at the matter and end up believing Jesus is actually the son of the one YHWH.​

You can't say that with any certainty or accuracy at all, Rich, let alone credibility.

I absolutely can say that since it is what's actually happening. It's just a matter of awareness. Google the growth of Unitarians. But, as far as I can tell, there are other "sects" (can't believe I have to say that, but sadly 33,000 denominations do exist) besides Unitarian that have also abandoned the trinity in favor of one God and Jesus being His son. I myself am not JW, Unitarian, or any other denomination. Just a guy that loves God.

You are right in inferring that numbers don't prove the scriptures, but the numbers are there and they mean something.

'Round and 'round we go, huh? :)

I guess so. But it makes both of us put our minds on God's Word, which can't hurt! Besides, it's not often I can discuss the nature of Jesus and God with someone and not have them flip out and tell my I'm not a Christian and I'm going to hell. I think it says a lot about the love of God you have in your heart for all brothers and sisters who may believe differently than yourself about some scriptural matter or another.

Having said that, I will further say that, since I've been on both sides of the fence, it's highly unlikekly I'll jump back over to the Trinity side. I've seen the effect each side has on understanding the scriptures, and I believe that logic far outweighs myth when it comes to understanding God. I'll be happy to drop the matter or keep on going. Either way, my love and respect for you as a son of God will not diminish one bit. :)

 

[Keiw]

@GEN2REV this post goes for you too since you liked Keiw's post.

The people preaching the doctrine of demons - specifically Watchtower Society people - use the New World Translation that mistranslates God's name as Jehovah over and over again.

The Holy Name of God is YHWH.

Your bible is corrupt, and you are a deceiver who rejects the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is everlasting God for the Word of God says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

That is YHWH in Hebrew. We dont speak Hebrew, So by your own council you can never use-Job, Jeremiah, Joshua, etc. Yet those names are in your bible showing your reasoning is faulty.
The post you answered is 100% fact. Your scholars will tell you its fact. So the question is. Why wont you believe truth? The answer is-your translations teach 2 different truths,2 different Gods because they are filled with error and altered by satans will.

 

[Rich R]

Rich R said:
Of course now we're entering Gnostic territory.​

Well, maybe you are, but it sounds like we agree (again) that that's not a good thing.

There's no maybe about it. I'm using logic which is exactly what the Gnostic denies They say there are mysteries that only the chosen or initiated ones can fathom. Of course, they themselves really can't fathom them, but they say that anyway.

The Athenasian Creed's statement that there is a God the Father, there is a God the Son, and there is a God the Holy Ghost, but there are not three Gods but only one God is Gnosticism at its finest. I'm told I can't fathom it because I lack something or another that the true Christians possess.

I can't fathom it alright, but it's not that I lack anything. I just admit to myself that such an idea is by nature unfathomable. I think it would be more honest of someone to just say the trinity can't be understood and let it go at that. When the true meaning of "faith" is admitted, it becomes clear that one can not believe something that is unfathomable by nature. We have to understand something before having faith in it. Blind faith, in this case, the requirement to think three persons are not three persons but one person, is an oxymoron. In other words, nobody actually believes the trinity. That's the real kicker!

What I can fathom is that a son and his father are two separate entities. I can't fathom a son being his own father. Nobody else can either.

I can fathom one sending another on a mission indicate two separate entities. I can't fathom the sender and the one sent being actually one person.

I can fathom that someone praying to God indicates two separate entities. I can't fathom God asking Himself to do something or another.

I can fathom that two people who have different wills are actually two separate entities. I can't fathom God having a split personality. Was God asking Himself if there were some other way while praying in Gethsemane? Make zero sense.

 

[GEN2REV]

Do not man and wife become one flesh when joined in marriage? ... There are many, many lesser examples of a multiplicity of persons being one entity (nations, businesses, sports teams, etc.). So to say "nothing like this exists in reality" is just not reality at all, and even a denial of it.

Yet another asinine explanation of the trinity.

Congrats.

I don't believe you're that dumb - I'll give you that much credit.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yet another asinine explanation of the trinity.

Think what you want, my friend. Your opinion is your own. And like I said, you're not alone in it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I have a wife. At the moment she is about 30 miles away from me. Clearly, we are not literally one flesh. The same applies to Jesus and God being one as well as all Christians being one.

Paul says a man and his covenant wife are one flesh in Ephesians 5:31. He is actually a referring to what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:24, and the same referral made by Jesus in Matthew 19:5 and Mark 10:8, where He says, "So they are no longer two but one flesh." Surely you do not deny or refute that. If you do, then how do you do so, Rich? By the same token, Paul also says that we Christians are all one in Christ Jesus, and Jesus even prays that we all would be made one just as Jesus and the Father are one (John 17:20-21). How do you make sense of these things, Rich? Do you just explain them away as figures of speech?

John wanted to counteract the Gnostic view of the logos, so he went to great lengths to tell us the the true logos is God.

Agreed. With this statement only.

...it's an abomination to say that God literally became flesh.

John certainly didn't think so: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." [John 1:14] And neither did Paul: "Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." And of course all Scripture is God-breathed

...going from God to flesh is about as big a change as one can imagine.

That's a very elementary understanding of "change," Rich. I'm being facetious with this, of course, but the point stands: a traffic light changes from green to yellow to red and back to green again, but it is still... a traffic light. :)

John also reports Jesus saying, John 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Absolutely, but Jesus goes on to say in John 17:5, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

God, YHWH specifically, is the only true God and Jesus is the one He sent.

Right, He sent His Word, which does not return to Him void or empty. His Word returned to Him shortly after His resurrection, having completed His work of redemption on the cross. :) His Word was always His Word, and can never be separated from Him. Your understanding of the Logos is fundamentally flawed.

There is no way short of abandoning the meaning of simple words and grammar that Jesus wasn't saying anything other than his Father is the only true God. Period. Why does this need any commentary?

There is no disagreement between us on this. The Father is the first Person of the triune Jehovah. All, together ~ the Father, the Son, and the Helper (the Holy Spirit) ~ are the only true God. You say, "Well that makes no sense." To that, I say, "To you. I understand.

Well, I certainly don't recognize the Athenasian "God the Son," but I've been quite forthcoming in saying that Jesus is the son of God. I don't have to refer to any creed to see that. I can find that about 30 times in the scriptures.

Jesus is shown to be God all through the Scriptures. And we agree that Jesus is God's Son. So there you have it: God and Son, so God the Son. One plus one equals two... :)

Rich R said: Nonetheless, every day there are more Trinitarians who take an honest look at the matter and end up believing Jesus is actually the son of the one YHWH.​

I absolutely can say that since it is what's actually happening. It's just a matter of awareness.

Well, yeah, I mean, anybody can say anything, right? As I said, both this and the inverse are happening. There is certainly a shakedown of sorts going on, but God is bringing those who are truly of His Israel to Jesus and unto Himself. And this will continue to the end of the age.

I guess so. But it makes both of us put our minds on God's Word, which can't hurt!

Absolutely. Paul does exhort us to think about, even dwell on, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, things of excellence, things worthy of praise.

...it's highly unlikely I'll jump back over to the Trinity side.

With God, all things are possible. :)

I've seen the effect each side has on understanding the scriptures, and I believe that logic far outweighs myth when it comes to understanding God.

I would say exactly the same thing, Rich.

I'll be happy to drop the matter or keep on going. Either way, my love and respect for you as a son of God will not diminish one bit. :)

Much the same to you.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

Paul says a man and his covenant wife are one flesh in Ephesians 5:31. He is actually a referring to what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:24, and the same referral made by Jesus in Matthew 19:5 and Mark 10:8, where He says, "So they are no longer two but one flesh." Surely you do not deny or refute that. If you do, then how do you do so, Rich? By the same token, Paul also says that we Christians are all one in Christ Jesus, and Jesus even prays that we all would be made one just as Jesus and the Father are one (John 17:20-21). How do you make sense of these things, Rich? Do you just explain them away as figures of speech?

"Definition of Figure of Speech

A figure of speech is a word or phrase that is used in a non-literal way to create an effect. This effect may be rhetorical as in the deliberate arrangement of words to achieve something poetic, or imagery as in the use of language to suggest a visual picture or make an idea more vivid. Overall, figures of speech function as literary devices because of their expressive use of language. Words are used in other ways than their literal meanings or typical manner of application." https://literarydevices.net/figure-of-speech/​

Since my wife and I make two lumps in the mattress every morning, I know that we are literally 2 people. I think Jesus and God understand that. The figure of speech used in the scriptures about 2 becoming 1 flesh is used to emphasize how close we are. It's the same figure of speech when Jesus says he and the father are one. He also said on more than one occasion that he always did what the Father wanted him to do instead of doing his own will. The former is a figure of speech while the later is true to fact.

Do you not think God uses figures of speech? If not, you may want to check out EW Bullinger's Figures of Speech in the Bible. I can't imaging how confusing it must be to read the scriptures without understanding figures of speech. They are all over the place.

Samuel said the following;

2 Sam 22:8-9,

8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
​

Do you really take all of that literally? Smoke of out of God's nostrils? God is spirit and has no nostrils. This is a figure of speech called Anthropopatheia where God is said to take on human characteristics. It's all over the place.

John certainly didn't think so: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." [John 1:14] And neither did Paul: "Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." And of course all Scripture is God-breathed

Yes, and God also told us to have the same mind as Jesus in Philippians 2:5. Being in the form of something does not make it the actual something. Look it up in Strong's and see how it's used elsewhere. I've covered this section many times. It is not a good trinity proof verse.

We have the same power as Jesus had because we have the same holy spirit dwelling within. It's God in Christ in us. Jesus didn't use his power in self service. Instead he used it in service to others. We should do the same.

That's a very elementary understanding of "change," Rich. I'm being facetious with this, of course, but the point stands: a traffic light changes from green to yellow to red and back to green again, but it is still... a traffic light.

What I actually said about God is that He often changes His plans, His mind, depending on how humans act. Read Exodus 32. God was going to consume Israel (hmmm, was God really going to eat them or could this be a figure of speech?) and leave only Moses alive. Moses prayed, and in response to that prayer God changed is mind. I consider that God as changing, but maybe you think of changing in some other way.

I said that God will absolutely bring His plan, the logos of John 1:1, to completion. In that sense God does not change. But the exact route depends on how people believe or don't believe Him. He is a resourceful God, and will get it done, just not sure exactly how. Why do you think it took Him 4,000 years to fix Adam's debacle? If He Himself was just going to come down and make it right, why the long wait during which humanity suffered? It took that long because He had to work with humans who weren't exactly 100% cooperative. Still, if Ishmael wouldn't believe, He'd work with Isaac who did believe. God didn't know if Abraham would sacrifice his son until the knife was about to plunge into his chest.

Gen 22:12,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now [NOT BEFORE] I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.​

Fortunately Abraham obeyed, but if he hadn't, God was resourceful enough to find someone who would. This is precisely why the story becomes infinitely more interesting than God coming down, obeying Himself and believing He'd raise Himself from the dead.

Absolutely, but Jesus goes on to say in John 17:5, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Yes. He also chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame, as well as lay out a plan of good works for each individual before the foundation of the world. You can find that in Ephesians. Did we therefore actually exist before the world was created?

Right, He sent His Word, which does not return to Him void or empty. His Word returned to Him shortly after His resurrection, having completed His work of redemption on the cross. :) His Word was always His Word, and can never be separated from Him. Your understanding of the Logos is fundamentally flawed.

I take it you haven't investigated the Jewish concept of "dabar" and it's relationship to "logos." To the Jews, both refer to YHWH. They never considered it to be anybody else, including Jesus. I spent many hours investigating the logos. I suspect you heard it in church and just believed it ever since. You've probably never seriously considered any alternatives. That's fine if it's what you want, but it does explain why we have different understanding of what it is.

Sometimes we need to understand words and concepts as they are used in other cultures than our own. God wrote to the Jews in terms they would understand. The Bible wasn't written last year in New York or LA. :)

Absolutely. Paul does exhort us to think about, even dwell on, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, things of excellence, things worthy of praise

If you understood me to say anything other than that, either I wasn't clear or you misunderstood. That happens sometimes in communication!

 

[Rich R]

Think what you want, my friend. Your opinion is your own. And like I said, you're not alone in it.

Grace and peace to you.

Sorry you had to reply to being called asinine by another believer. It would be nice if Christians could at least be civil with each other, regardless of different beliefs on certain points. Whether right or wrong, we don't have to call each other's beliefs asinine. It's God's goodness that leads us to repentance (Rom 2:4), not berating each other.

I'm 100% with you on this, brother!

 

[PinSeeker]

The figure of speech used in the scriptures about 2 becoming 1 flesh is used to emphasize how close we are. It's the same figure of speech when Jesus says he and the father are one.

I agree, but the problem is that you are far, far under-selling it. Your view of that is way, way too low. You may actually agree with this, but it's a spiritual union, and if so, you are (inadvertently, maybe) making it out to be far, far less than it is.

Sometimes we need to understand words and concepts as they are used in other cultures than our own. God wrote to the Jews in terms they would understand.

Agreed. So when are you going to really try to do that? :) Then again, though, even for many Jews of the day, they didn't fully understand it, because they weren't truly of God's Israel and thus did not that the Holy Spirit to aid in their discernment.

PinSeeker: Absolutely. Paul does exhort us to think about, even dwell on, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, things of excellence, things worthy of praise.​

If you understood me to say anything other than that, either I wasn't clear or you misunderstood. That happens sometimes in communication!

It does happen, but I was agreeing with you in stating that. I'm trying to help, but really, only the Holy Spirit ~ the Helper, the third Person of the triune God (John 14) ~ is capable of that. As Paul says:

"...these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God."
[1 Corinthians 2:10-12]​

So, like Paul, not to really compare myself to him but still, in his manner:

"(I) impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual."
[1 Corinthians 2:13]​

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[PinSeeker]

Sorry you had to reply to being called asinine by another believer. It would be nice if Christians could at least be civil with each other, regardless of different beliefs on certain points. Whether right or wrong, we don't have to call each other's beliefs asinine. It's God's goodness that leads us to repentance (Rom 2:4), not berating each other.

I'm 100% with you on this, brother!

Thanks, Rich. It never ceases to amaze me what Christians are capable of, even in interactions with other Christians. I can't help but question whether the Spirit is actually in them or not, at least sometimes. But we are called to love folks despite their sin, for sure, especially because we ourselves are not without sin. Well, and because we have been the recipients of God's great mercy and compassion and forgiveness, of course.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Kermos]

There's no maybe about it. I'm using logic which is exactly what the Gnostic denies They say there are mysteries that only the chosen or initiated ones can fathom. Of course, they themselves really can't fathom them, but they say that anyway.

...snip...

I can fathom that two people who have different wills are actually two separate entities. I can't fathom God having a split personality. Was God asking Himself if there were some other way while praying in Gethsemane? Make zero sense.

What could be a bigger change than God supposedly becoming flesh? You can't have it both ways.

What could be a bigger change than God supposedly becoming flesh? You can't have it both ways.

Matt 7:3,

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

1 John 1:8,

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John 8:58,

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Read the verse very carefully as written. Notice that nowhere does it speak of an "eternity past." John didn't say Jesus existed in "eternity past."

It says Jesus existed "before Abraham" and there is no indication of just how much before Abraham he reportedly existed, It could have been the day before Abraham was born. Where do you suppose we could find the answer? Right! In the scriptures. But they must be read as written, free from any preconceived ideas. Free from preconceived ideas; because of 2,000 of trinity tradition, I am fully aware of how difficult it is to do that. But it can be done. I did it myself.

There is no real agreement among scholars. Trinitarian scholars included, on how this verse should be translated. There are many translations that indicate we are waiting for the return of Jesus in order to show the glory (manifested power) of God. Jesus is the glory of God, but that doesn't make Him to be God.

One thing is certain though, it must agree with all other verses and if translated to say that Jesus is God, we have an immediate problem with 1 Cor 8:6 which states in clear terms that only the Father is God. It would also raise the problem of who is God's God, since Jesus is said to have a God many times.

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

YHWH has neither a God nor a Father. Jesus does. He is called the son of God about 35 times. You can't find him being called God the Son in the scriptures. You need look at the Athenasian Creed and the other man made creeds to find such a moniker.

Why bring up Emmanuel? It's no clear statement that Jesus is God. It's an inference at best, and not a very good one at that. Emmanuel was a name that applied to Jesus. God's name is not Emmanuel. God's name is YHWH. Besides. Joseph and Mary didn't call him Emmanuel. The ancient Jews looked at names in a much different way than we do. That's an area of research that will yield much benefit.

It's amazing how so many crystal clear verses can be overlooked while making a few unclear verses validate one's preconceived idea. Unlike the more than half dozen tines Jesus is clearly called a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40, and 1 Cor 15:22), there is not one single as clear verse that calls Jesus a God. In fact, the scriptures declare explicitly that God is NOT a man (HOs 11:9 and Num 23:19).

You label YHWH God a confused fool that lies. God says that God does not change (Malachi 3:6), but you say that God does change because of words that do not appear in Scripture, and this is shown in the following links.

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You evilly use your flattering tongue to additionally spread lies about Jesus such as your heart's deception that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1554 in this thread), and you deny Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God by your wicked thoughts that clear verses "are ambiguous and don't say outright that Jesus is God", and you disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God showing your wolf in sheep's clothing internals.

moreover

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

moreover

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

moreover

You show your utter disrespectful contempt for the Word of God by trying to change the meaning of the Hebrew language (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1660 in this thread), even after you've been shown the word for Strong's 5162 means "to be sorry, console oneself", not "repent", but truly something akin to "sorrow"; IN EFFECT, YOU LABEL YHWH GOD A CONFUSED FOOL THAT LIES.

moreover

You show a repeated disrespect and dishonor and disregard for the God Most High by misspelling the sacred and Holy Name of God, YHWH, (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1287 in this thread) in at least 3 different posts; therefore, you publicly show just how little God means to you as well as your failure to understand God

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

It is written "the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” (Prophet Samuel, 1 Samuel 15:29).

As you were shown, the Lord does not change, so "I will be" fails as a proper translation for ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

Truly, "I AM" is the proper translation for the Hebrew word ehyeh in Exodus 3:14, thus we have "I AM Who I AM" with YHWH expressing God’s tie-in with Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

When you try to disassociate Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 in your heart, then you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

 

[Rich R]

You label YHWH God a confused fool that lies. God says that God does not change (Malachi 3:6), but you say that God does change because of words that do not appear in Scripture, and this is shown in the following links.

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You evilly use your flattering tongue to additionally spread lies about Jesus such as your heart's deception that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1554 in this thread), and you deny Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God by your wicked thoughts that clear verses "are ambiguous and don't say outright that Jesus is God", and you disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God showing your wolf in sheep's clothing internals.

moreover

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

moreover

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

moreover

You show your utter disrespectful contempt for the Word of God by trying to change the meaning of the Hebrew language (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1660 in this thread), even after you've been shown the word for Strong's 5162 means "to be sorry, console oneself", not "repent", but truly something akin to "sorrow"; IN EFFECT, YOU LABEL YHWH GOD A CONFUSED FOOL THAT LIES.

moreover

You show a repeated disrespect and dishonor and disregard for the God Most High by misspelling the sacred and Holy Name of God, YHWH, (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1287 in this thread) in at least 3 different posts; therefore, you publicly show just how little God means to you as well as your failure to understand God

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

It is written "the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” (Prophet Samuel, 1 Samuel 15:29).

As you were shown, the Lord does not change, so "I will be" fails as a proper translation for ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

Truly, "I AM" is the proper translation for the Hebrew word ehyeh in Exodus 3:14, thus we have "I AM Who I AM" with YHWH expressing God’s tie-in with Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

When you try to disassociate Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 in your heart, then you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

I guess you have me all figured out. The thing I don't understand is why you bother reading anything I write. Clearly, to you, it is 100% error.

Do you just enjoy belittling those who don't think exactly as yourself?

 

[Kermos]

Immanuel

Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically “named” Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) which means “God is with us”?[1] No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: “The Lord is with thee” - Luke 1:28. Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, “I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?”, and he answered, “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them.” - Luke 1:66-68, LB.

Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying “God is with us” and similar statements. They meant “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Gen. 21:22; Ex. 18:19; Nu. 23:21; josh. 1:9; 1 Chron. 17:2; 2 chron. 1:1; 35:21; Ezra 1:3; is. 8:10. And Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13). But if we insist on trinitarian-type “proof,” then Gabriel must have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means ‘Jehovah is renowned’ - p. 678, TDOTB) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 1 Sam. 17:37; 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2 Chron. 36:23; Is. 41:10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23.

This understanding is seen throughout the Bible. For example, “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” - 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, RSV.

Or, in a Psalm many of us apply to ourselves or our friends:

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou [God] art with me - ASV.


The acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.

Or as noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris tells us:

“Matthew [in Matt. 1:23] is not saying, ‘Someone who is “God” is now physically with us,’ but ‘God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus.’” - p. 258, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Footnotes:

1. How do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, the very same Hebrew term is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.

The Apostle Matthew wrote "'Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel' which is, being translated, 'the God with us'" (Matthew 1:23).

The Name Immanuel indicates thar Jesus is God with us because Matthew literally wrote such.

Names in Judaism have profound meaning.

Gabriel's name is NOT Immanuel.

The angel Gabriel clearly is God's announcer (Luke 1:26) as is clearly enunciated two verses prior to Gabriel saying "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).

Unlike Gabriel, the attribute that Matthew declares about Jesus is that Jesus is God with us.

NOBODY, absolutely nobody, except Jesus is God with us.

You oppose Apostolic testimony!

You are a coward that has avoided quoting posts to which you are clearly addressing - not even an @ flag.

You try to hide, but the Word of God shows you to be the deceiver that you are.

Let's look at what your writings reveal about your heart's treasure.

You wickedly call Jesus a liar when your heart preaches that Jesus did not raise Jesus from the dead (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1627 in this thread), yet Jesus truly says Jesus raised Jesus from the dead (John 2:19-22).

additionally

Your contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God did not exist but will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #644 in this thread); in other words, you think that YHWH God had to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

additionally

You claim God's Wisdom was created by YHWH God who lacked Wisdom according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #752 in this thread), so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.

additionally

You wickedly add your words directly into the words of the Apostle Thomas recorded in John 20:28 - an evil crime by itself (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #843 in this thread), yet in so doing, you plunge even further into your evil deception by you subtracting that which the Apostle John wrote about the dialog between Jesus and Thomas in John 20:26-29.

additionally


You wickedly separate "God" from Jesus" in Titus 2:13 by breaking Greek grammar rules (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1478 in this thread), but Paul did write that Jesus is "the great God" in the passage "awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

additionally

In your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1219 in this thread); therefore, YOU are in sin of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so you do not know Who Jesus is.

Your heart's writing reveals that you are vacant of the Truth (John 14:6) - THE TRUTH IS THAT JESUS IS GOD!

 

[DavidB]

Sorry you had to reply to being called asinine by another believer. It would be nice if Christians could at least be civil with each other, regardless of different beliefs on certain points. Whether right or wrong, we don't have to call each other's beliefs asinine. It's God's goodness that leads us to repentance (Rom 2:4), not berating each other.

I'm 100% with you on this, brother!

Rich
What are your thoughts on the origins of the trinity and how it was introduced into Christianity?

 

[Rich R]

Rich
What are your thoughts on the origins of the trinity and how it was introduced into Christianity?

When the Greeks and Hellenized Jews brought there Greek philosophy with them to the early church. Paul warned Timothy about some who were preaching another Jesus. I believe he was speaking about those who said Jesus was God. He could very well have been speaking specifically about Philo, who tried to mix Greek philosophy with the Hebrew scriptures, but, while a distinct possibility, it is somewhat conjectural. In any case, apparently, the problem started while Paul was still alive. As you know, it took another 400 years or so to fully develop the trinity doctrine. One has to wonder if Paul is really saved since he never talked about having to believe the trinity to be saved! According to the Athenasian Creed, he would not be saved. What a sham!

 

[DavidB]

When the Greeks and Hellenized Jews brought there Greek philosophy with them to the early church. Paul warned Timothy about some who were preaching another Jesus. I believe he was speaking about those who said Jesus was God. He could very well have been speaking specifically about Philo, who tried to mix Greek philosophy with the Hebrew scriptures, but, while a distinct possibility, it is somewhat conjectural. In any case, apparently, the problem started while Paul was still alive. As you know, it took another 400 years or so to fully develop the trinity doctrine. One has to wonder if Paul is really saved since he never talked about having to believe the trinity to be saved! According to the Athenasian Creed, he would not be saved. What a sham!

Agreed.

Greek philosophy included Syncretism, the merging of multiple religions. Alexander the Great tried to unify the various religions in his empire to promote peace. Triune gods are common in history among the Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus and Buddhists.

Those who worship the Father “must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24