A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Rich R]

If Jesus just existed in God's mind before his human birth, then how do you harmonise that idea with the following verses?:

John 6 (WEB):

(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.
(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

Jeuss said, in John 3:13 (ESV):

(13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
​

John the baptist said, John 3:31 (WEB):

(31) He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.​

Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:47 (WEB):

(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.​

Jesus said that he came from heaven, meaning that He came from God; God was his source. The Jews would not have taken Christ’s words to mean that he “incarnated” or was somehow God. It was a common use of language for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source, and there are a number of verses that show that is true.

James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Jesus’ words should be understood the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, and God directly fathered Jesus.

 

[keithr]

It was a common use of language for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source, and there are a number of verses that show that is true.

Can you give Biblical examples?

Jesus’ words should be understood the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was.

What about Jesus' words in John 6:62 (WEB)?:

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

 

[PinSeeker]

Abraham about to kill Isaac... God didn't know if Abraham would follow through or not until Abraham raised the knife.

I would argue that He most certainly did, and I'll get to that in a moment. But for now, regarding this foreknowing in Romans 8, when Paul speaks of "those whom God foreknew," it is to be understood very similarly to the following:

• "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.'” (Genesis 4:1)
• "Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch." (Genesis 4:17)
• "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth...” (Genesis 4:25)

Surely, no one would suggest ~ because it would be a perfectly ridiculous suggestion ~ that Adam somehow forgot who Eve was somewhere between his knowing her in Genesis 4:1 and his knowing her again a mere twenty-four verses later. And, back to Romans 8, Paul is talking about a specific group of people whom God foreknew. In the mere cognitive sense, God knows ~ and foreknows ~ everyone. So Paul cannot mean this foreknowing in the mere cognitive sense.

Interestingly enough, this account shows an angel (v 11) talking as if he were God himself.

Yes! YEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!! :) Yes, I'm well aware of that, and yes, it is quite interesting. Ah, yes, "the angel of the LORD." Genesis 22. Such a great passage. So glad you (providentially) pointed it out, as it brings us back to the subject of this thread. The Hebrew word translated as "angel" is "malak," which means "messenger." This particular messenger is not just an angel, but "the angel of the Lord." The messenger of YHVH ~ or in Hebrew, "malak YHVH" ~ is the only messenger who bears the name of YHVH. And here it should be easy to see that this angel is He Who comes in the name of the LORD, even Jesus Himself, as it correlates intensely with what is said of Jesus upon His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, "Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Matthew 21:9). In Genesis 22:11, Jesus ~ yes, Jesus ~ calls out to Abraham ("Abraham, Abraham...") in Genesis 22 in the very same manner as He calls out to Saul (soon to become Paul) in Acts 9 ("Saul, Saul..."). He calls them both to turn from what they are doing ~ to repent and believe. And, because of the Lord's calling and by faith, which is the gift of the Lord, Abraham and Saul both did so and obeyed ~ Abraham, as we read in Hebrews 11, "...when he was tested, offered up Isaac, (but) considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead (and) figuratively speaking, received him back," and Saul, as evidenced by his subsequent actions.

In precisely the same vein, in Exodus 23:20-21, the "angel" who will go before Israel is described in ways that closely identify Him with God: the Lord tells Israel not o rebel against Him (v.21) because He "will not pardon (their) transgression (sin)" and "because (YHVH's) name is in Him" (v.21, implying God's nature and character), and that to "obey His voice" is to "do all that I say" (v.22). When Joshua finally leads the people into the land, he meets a figure outside Jericho referred to Himself as "the commander of the army of the LORD" (Joshua 5:14), Who speaks nearly identical words as those spoken to Moses (in Exodus 3:2) at the burning bush:

"Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy" (Joshua 5:15 ~ virtually identical to God's words in Exodus 3:2, "Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.") You should also notice that God addresses Moses in the same way as He addresses Abraham in Genesis 22 and Saul in Acts 9, by calling his name twice, which is of great significance: "Moses, Moses!” And finally, referring back to Genesis 22, this angel's title, "the angel of the LORD," identifies Him with the angel Who has protected Israel (Exodus 14:19) and Who is promised here in Genesis 22 to go before them into Canaan (Exodus 33:2).

Maybe that helps you understand why Jesus said he and his Father are one.

Rich, my friend, I would throw that ball right back to you. Maybe you will see. But, seeing is a work of God, as Isaiah says in chapter 35 of his prophecy, verses 4 and 5, specifically: "God... He will come and save you... Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened..."

That's how the Jews would have understood it.

No, THAT'S how the Israelites of the Old Testament and the Jews, Paul's hearers in Romans 8 would have understood it, and how we, as true Jews should hear it.

Agency explains many verses that are taken as Jesus being God.

No, that Jesus is the One who "comes in the name of the Lord" is far, far greater greater than that. See above. We, by comparison, are, having been foreknown ~ foreloved ~ by God, are called according to His purpose and thus love Him and serve Him. This is no small thing, but is not nearly the same as coming "in the name of the Lord."

...look at it from our own modern West point of view, instead of trying to understand how the ancient Middle Eastern person world see it.

I agree that's a large part of the problem, but again, would throw that ball right back to you, Rich.

God gave us free will. If He knew I would always choose good, then I would hardly be free to choose evil.

Ah, yes, so much comes back to this (quite "modern West") misconception of free will. Certainly, in a human sense, our wills are free. But God knows that we are all, from birth, dead in our sin, and thus that, as Jeremiah (17:9) says, "(t)he heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick" ~ slaves to sin and unrighteousness. As such, we are in need of being set free to choose the Good, because until then, we will always choose... unwisely.

Yes. Obviously, by nature we are all guilty thanks to Adam. We all have a sin nature and God certainly knows that.

I'm glad you acknowledge this.

I was talking about individual sins that result from our sin nature.

Sure.

Those God does not know until we do or don't commit the actual act.

If this were true, Rich, how could it also be said, as David does in Psalm 139, that even before a word is on our tongues, He knows it altogether (139:4)? Or that His eyes saw our unformed substance, and in His book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for us, when as yet there were none of them (139:16)? Even if we concede that God "does not know until we do or don't commit the actual act" (sin), God is surely fully cognizant and ever aware of the fact that we all, from birth ~ even as you say ~ are by nature guilty and in possession of this sin nature, and thus prone to sin. Yes, in this sense, He foreknows everyone and everything, even the sin of individuals, Christian or not. But, thanks be to God, He works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Can you give Biblical examples?

Jesus, Manna, all good things.

What about Jesus' words in John 6:62 (WEB)?:

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

First of all, the word "ascending" is not the same word used in Acts 1:9 where Jesus went up into the clouds.

Secondly, the whole chapter, indeed much of John, shows Jesus often talking if rather cryptic terms. The other Gospels are not like John at all in that regard. They deal in much more concrete terms. In John Jesus talks about being the bread of life and those who eat of it will never die. He talks about drinking his blood. He talks about being born twice. Jesus said his words were life and spirit, somewhat of an odd way to describe words. Right after talking about "ascending" Jesus talked about the spirit quickening the mortal body. That made no sense to those who heard it. Many other rather obtuse ideas are present in John and absent from the other Gospels. John 6:60 says the Jews didn't understand what he was saying because it just sounded weird to them. Verse 66 says many stopped believing in him. Clearly, he was not talking in the concrete way that most Jews could understand.

I mentioned that the Jews saw pre-existance in a much different way than we in the modern West, that something pre-existed because it was in God's mind. Our ideas are more Greek like (Plato) than Semitic. They were big on the eternal existence of the soul. Since the scriptures were given to a Semitic people, it is often necessary to take our modern West hat off and don that of the ancient Jews.

So was Jesus saying he was laterally in heaven or was he just speaking in figurative terms? The scriptures do not outright say the Jesus was incarnated. They say he was born. Otherwise, how could he be anything like his brethren, which the scriptures declare him to be many times.

Admittedly, this is a difficult section to understand, but I think it best to ditch the Greek view and adopt that of the ancient Jews. What did they think of pre-existance? The Greek said yes, our souls were around before we were born. The Jews said no, that only in God's mind did we pre-exist. I think the Jewish view is correct.

 

[Rich R]

I would argue that He most certainly did, and I'll get to that in a moment. But for now, regarding this foreknowing in Romans 8, when Paul speaks of "those whom God foreknew," it is to be understood very similarly to the following:

• "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.'” (Genesis 4:1)
• "Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch." (Genesis 4:17)
• "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth...” (Genesis 4:25)

Surely, no one would suggest ~ because it would be a perfectly ridiculous suggestion ~ that Adam somehow forgot who Eve was somewhere between his knowing her in Genesis 4:1 and his knowing her again a mere twenty-four verses later. And, back to Romans 8, Paul is talking about a specific group of people whom God foreknew. In the mere cognitive sense, God knows ~ and foreknows ~ everyone. So Paul cannot mean this foreknowing in the mere cognitive sense.

Why didn't God say, "Ha...I knew all along you would obey me" instead of, "Now I know..." If it were any other piece of literature, we would all know that by saying, "now I know..." clearly means that he didn't know before that.

A man "knowing" a woman is an Ancient Near Eastern way of saying the had sex.

Yes! YEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!! :) Yes, I'm well aware of that, and yes, it is quite interesting. Ah, yes, "the angel of the LORD." Genesis 22. Such a great passage. So glad you (providentially) pointed it out, as it brings us back to the subject of this thread. The Hebrew word translated as "angel" is "malak," which means "messenger." This particular messenger is not just an angel, but "the angel of the Lord." The messenger of YHVH ~ or in Hebrew, "malak YHVH" ~ is the only messenger who bears the name of YHVH. And here it should be easy to see that this angel is He Who comes in the name of the LORD, even Jesus Himself, as it correlates intensely with what is said of Jesus upon His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, "Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Matthew 21:9). In Genesis 22:11, Jesus ~ yes, Jesus ~ calls out to Abraham ("Abraham, Abraham...") in Genesis 22 in the very same manner as He calls out to Saul (soon to become Paul) in Acts 9 ("Saul, Saul..."). He calls them both to turn from what they are doing ~ to repent and believe. And, because of the Lord's calling and by faith, which is the gift of the Lord, Abraham and Saul both did so and obeyed ~ Abraham, as we read in Hebrews 11, "...when he was tested, offered up Isaac, (but) considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead (and) figuratively speaking, received him back," and Saul, as evidenced by his subsequent actions.

In precisely the same vein, in Exodus 23:20-21, the "angel" who will go before Israel is described in ways that closely identify Him with God: the Lord tells Israel not o rebel against Him (v.21) because He "will not pardon (their) transgression (sin)" and "because (YHVH's) name is in Him" (v.21, implying God's nature and character), and that to "obey His voice" is to "do all that I say" (v.22). When Joshua finally leads the people into the land, he meets a figure outside Jericho referred to Himself as "the commander of the army of the LORD" (Joshua 5:14), Who speaks nearly identical words as those spoken to Moses (in Exodus 3:2) at the burning bush:

"Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy" (Joshua 5:15 ~ virtually identical to God's words in Exodus 3:2, "Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.") You should also notice that God addresses Moses in the same way as He addresses Abraham in Genesis 22 and Saul in Acts 9, by calling his name twice, which is of great significance: "Moses, Moses!” And finally, referring back to Genesis 22, this angel's title, "the angel of the LORD," identifies Him with the angel Who has protected Israel (Exodus 14:19) and Who is promised here in Genesis 22 to go before them into Canaan (Exodus 33:2).

In the Ancient Near East, an agent was considered virtually identical to the one who sent him, so it's not at all strange that the agent of God would be closely associated with God. Genesis 22:11 really says, "of YHWH." There is no word "of" in Hebrew, but the inflection of the word YHWH shows it to be, "of YHWH."

Ah, yes, so much comes back to this (quite "modern West") misconception of free will. Certainly, in a human sense, our wills are free. But God knows that we are all, from birth, dead in our sin, and thus that, as Jeremiah (17:9) says, "(t)he heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick" ~ slaves to sin and unrighteousness. As such, we are in need of being set free to choose the Good, because until then, we will always choose... unwisely.

It's only in the human sense that we can choose good? God knows we really don't have that ability? Yikes! Then God was just playing games with Israel when He suggested they chose good?

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

While all the other Ancient Near Eastern gods would toy with people, YHWH would never do that. He'd never lead us to believe we have genuine free will, knowing all along that we would really have to act according to His knowledge of every little thing we'd do. We would have no choice whatsoever.

I think perhaps this is why you don't understand my saying that Jesus is a hero for obeying God perfectly, including allowing himself to be crucified. Much more so than had he just been God. I guess in your mind, it was all determined ahead of time that he would do what he did. There would have been no chance whatsoever that he would have called the 12 legions of angels to rescue him. It certainly must have been tempting, but as he said in Gethsemane, he subjugated his free will to that of God's will. If he had had no choice in the matter, big deal. He did what God programmed him to do, or rather I should say what God forced him to do (hence my assertion that God would be a big bully).

But if Jesus really had a genuine choice in he matter and did it anyway, can't you see the greatness of what he did? Of course you may be so against everything I say, that you may be predisposed to not see it. Sad, because it certainly raises the scriptures from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor! God wasn't sure Jesus would go the distance until he hung his head and said, "it is finished." If I'm right, can you imagine the joy in God's heart when he said that. It was done! God's plan, the logos of John 1, was finished! God was able to convince, not force or predetermine, enough free will people, people with the real ability to say yes or no to God, to do what needed to be done.

If this were true, Rich, how could it also be said, as David does in Psalm 139, that even before a word is on our tongues, He knows it altogether (139:4)? Or that His eyes saw our unformed substance, and in His book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for us, when as yet there were none of them (139:16)? Even if we concede that God "does not know until we do or don't commit the actual act" (sin), God is surely fully cognizant and ever aware of the fact that we all, from birth ~ even as you say ~ are by nature guilty and in possession of this sin nature, and thus prone to sin. Yes, in this sense, He foreknows everyone and everything, even the sin of individuals, Christian or not. But, thanks be to God, He works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

Grace and peace to you.

Our free will is only an illusion? If God knew I'd lie today at 3:00 PM, then I will lie at 3:00 PM. I may feel as though I have a choice, but I obviously really didn't. There is not much difference in God causing everything that happens and knowing everything that will happen. If He really knew that I'd lie, then He may as well force me to lie, because I would have had no chance not to lie.

 

[PinSeeker]

A man "knowing" a woman is an Ancient Near Eastern way of saying the had sex.

Well, right; that's was my point. But what did God create sex for humans ~ to be between one man and one woman, of course ~ as the highest human expression of, Rich? If you answer that correctly, which surely you can/will, then you will understand that it is inclusive of, but actually far, far more than merely sexual intercourse.

Why didn't God say, "Ha...I knew all along you would obey me" instead of, "Now I know..." If it were any other piece of literature, we would all know that by saying, "now I know..." clearly means that he didn't know before that.

God did test Abraham, for sure, and Abraham passed, but I would argue that you are not reading Moses's words (breathed by God Himself) for all they're worth. God knew all along what Abraham would do, and that really, rather than proving anything to God, Abraham really proved what God had done for him and in him by believing and trusting God and proving the faith God had given him. This is what James, in James 1, says about our trials, that God's testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which finally will have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. And as Paul says in Philippians 2, we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in us, both to (so that we) will and to (so that we) work for his good pleasure. It is all a work of God. My favorite hymn, How Firm a Foundation, the lyrics reflect what God says through scripture to all of us, "The flame will not hurt you, I only design, thy dross to remove, and thy gold to refine."

In the Ancient Near East, an agent was considered virtually identical to the one who sent him, so it's not at all strange that the agent of God would be closely associated with God. Genesis 22:11 really says, "of YHWH." There is no word "of" in Hebrew, but the inflection of the word YHWH shows it to be, "of YHWH."

Exactly right, but "of YHVH" is to say, really, one and the same as YHVH (with the Father and the Spirit).

It's only in the human sense that we can choose good?

You're purposely conflating two very different things ~ good things, in an earthly, human sense, and the Good (capitalized; see above), in the spiritual, Godly sense, and the way, the truth, and the life, which Jesus Himself is, per His exact words. Very hard to believe, Rich, that you are not, as I said before, being quite disingenuous. I know you're much smarter than that.

God knows we really don't have that ability? Yikes! Then God was just playing games with Israel when He suggested they chose good?

Again, conflating. Surely you know, Rich, that Jesus said to His disciples (and by extension us):

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (John 15:16).​

Now, He's not saying they "didn't make a choice," but it was His choice that was effectual. He chose us, that we should go and bear fruit.

And this was shortly after some Jews gathered around him and... well, here's the passage:

"(They) said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, saying, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:24-31).​

I underlined 'because' in that passage; surely you see the cause and effect. Many inadvertently reverse that cause and effect relationship. Quit doing it; stop it. :)

Deut 30:19, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live[/QUOTE]
He called in Israel to do that, Rich. This is the general call of the Gospel. That was set before the Israelites then, and it is set before the world now.

I think perhaps this is why you don't understand my saying that Jesus is a hero for obeying God perfectly, including allowing himself to be crucified. Much more so than had he just been God.

As Paul says in Philippians 2 (and yes, I know the Watchtower's twisting of this passage into something it is not very well), "Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God..." (of the same essence and nature as the Father) "...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped..." (taken full advantage of, used) "...but emptied Himself..." (laid aside, though still in full possession of, His deity) "...by taking the form of a servant..." (again, of the same essence and nature as, but this time man) "...being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8).

I guess in your mind, it was all determined ahead of time that he would do what he did.

LOL! Yes, this was God's plan from the beginning. We first see it in God's promise in Genesis 3:15, where, to Satan, He says, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He (Jesus) shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." God is not somehow "surprised" by anything. There was never any "Plan B." :)

It certainly must have been tempting...

Yes, as the writer of Hebrews says, He was tempted in every way we are, but yet remained without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

...but as he said in Gethsemane, he subjugated his free will to that of God's will.

That He did. Perfectly. And we should, too.

If he had had no choice in the matter, big deal. He did what God programmed him to do, or rather I should say what God forced him to do (hence my assertion that God would be a big bully).

LOL! Okay, sure. :) Right, the Father did not "hold a gun to" the Son's "head." :) He did it willingly ~ humbled Himself ~ as Paul says in Philippians 2.

But if Jesus really had a genuine choice in he matter and did it anyway, can't you see the greatness of what he did?

Of course. That's really the thing through all of this, that the greatness that you see is but a shadow of the greatness that it really is! This "greatness" that you see may be quite great, but is actually far too small! But He, unlike us, was able, even in His human nature, even wanting ~ was in agony and praying earnestly, even to the point of sweating like great drops of blood ~ "this cup" to be removed from Him, was able to submit Himself perfectly to the will of the Father. Yes, you're at least sort of, albeit unintentionally, making my point for me. Although I'm sure you will deny it, thank you for that.

Of course you may be so against everything I say, that you may be predisposed to not see it. Sad, because it certainly raises the scriptures from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor!

I don't really like the technicolor image, because technicolor, as you know, I'm sure, Rich, is artificial. But I understand what you are saying, and in that spirit, I agree, and would throw that predisposition ball right back to you, my friend.

God wasn't sure Jesus would go the distance until he hung his head and said, "it is finished."

God was sure from the beginning, as I said, because He was the one that set it all to happen, even before the foundation of the world. Jesus, in saying "It is finished," Rich, was pronouncing His work of redemption, eternally decreed by the Father, as done and fully accomplished. And He could not have done this unless He was ~ and is ~ God in the flesh.

If I'm right, can you imagine the joy in God's heart when he said that. It was done! God's plan, the logos of John 1, was finished!

Absolutely. Hallelujah! Praise God.

Our free will is only an illusion?

I have never said such a thing. The issue is not of the will. The issue is the heart. I could have said that at the outset... :) I have, actually, but just not in this post. :)

If God knew I'd lie today at 3:00 PM, then I will lie at 3:00 PM. I may feel as though I have a choice, but I obviously really didn't. There is not much difference in God causing everything that happens and knowing everything that will happen. If He really knew that I'd lie, then He may as well force me to lie, because I would have had no chance not to lie.

This really makes no sense, Rich. :) I mean, I understand, but it's kind of nonsensical, really. Again, inadvertently, you're conflating two different things.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Kermos]

Hey Kermos, get a load of what I have prepared and in store for you on my new thread. You will have a hay day over there. All this stuff you are bringing up here and much more....check it at..

The proof for the Preincarnation of Yahshua/Jesus is a fools' errand!

see you later then....;)

No thanks.

You reveal yourself to be the fool that denies Apostolic testimony as well as your rejection of the Word of God (John 1:1, 1:14).

The following contains Apostolic testimony as well as the Word of God that Lord Jesus Christ is God which you foolishly reject and deny.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

First of all, the word "ascending" is not the same word used in Acts 1:9 where Jesus went up into the clouds.

It is the same Greek word as Jesus used in John 20:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

So Jesus was saying in John 6:62 that he would asend to heaven, where he had previously been. Jesus did ascend into heaven:

Mark 16:19

(19) So then the Lord, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.​

Colossians 3:1

(1) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.​

1 Peter 3:22

(22) who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.​

And as John wrote, John 3:13, "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." Jesus existed in heaven before he descended at his birth, and he has been in heaven since his ascension.

 

[Rich R]

It is the same Greek word as Jesus used in John 20:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

So Jesus was saying in John 6:62 that he would asend to heaven, where he had previously been. Jesus did ascend into heaven:

Mark 16:19

(19) So then the Lord, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.​

Colossians 3:1

(1) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.​

1 Peter 3:22

(22) who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.​

And as John wrote, John 3:13, "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." Jesus existed in heaven before he descended at his birth, and he has been in heaven since his ascension.

Good point. I'll have to mull that over.

I've done a minimal amount of research on what heaven meant to the Jews, enough to know that it's quite different than our modern Western view. I'll delve into it more thanks to your post.

One of the big questions I have about the pre-existrance Jesus is that it would hardly make him like all other humans, which he supposedly is.

Heb 2:17,

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
​

The other thing is that if he existed forever in the past, then presumably he would exist forever in the future. Again, hardly like the rest of us. Also, what would his death really mean if he really was a man like the rest of us, but somehow existed forever also. I can't shake the feeling that, when the whole scope of scripture is considered, it just seems out of place.

As I said, these are questions I have. I'm not being anything remotely like dogmatic on the subject. You raised some good points. But, as I've said many times, all scripture must fit together without contradictions. As it is now, I can see verses that seem to support both sides of the question.

I just looked up John 20:17 and noticed something interesting. Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his God and his Father. But check out this in Matthew:

Matt 28:9,

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
​

Then there's this in Luke:

Luke 24:39,

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
​

Why could Mary not touch Jesus because he had not ascended, but other's could? Maybe "ascending" doesn't necessarily mean going up to heaven? Maybe it means something else that happened between the time Jesus met Mary and the time he met the others. It sure seems that way.

I know there is a lot about a sweet smelling savor ascending to heaven in the OT sacrifices. After all, the all the scriptures are about Jesus (John 5:39). Is that relevant? Maybe...gotta do some more research though.

 

[Kermos]

Oh my gosh! You are just hell bent on condemning me no matter what I say, even when I give you a compliment. Stunning!

All I can say is thank God for the scriptures:

1Cor 4:4,

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

For the record, I do admire your steadfastness. Forgive me if that offends you, but it's really how I feel. :)

Rich R, I do not want you to go to hell. I love you as I love myself, so I tell you the trajectory that you are traveling for I was on such a trajectory before I was saved by the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) named Jesus Christ the Lord of all.

You had written "These verses state in no uncertain terms that God can repent" regarding Jeremiah 18:6-10 AFTER God had me present the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) to you.

Rich R, it is written "the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” (Prophet Samuel, 1 Samuel 15:29).

As you were shown, the Lord does not change, so "I will be" fails as a proper translation for ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

Truly, "I AM" is the proper translation for the Hebrew word ehyeh in Exodus 3:14, thus we have "I AM Who I AM" with YHWH expressing God’s tie-in with Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

When you try to disassociate Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 in your heart, then you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

 

[Kermos]

Hmm...not quite sure how a (plethora) of a few Misinterpreted verses will
Outweigh the Massive (plethora?) Amount Of 500 Plain And Clear Passages?

Maybe I need a little enlightenment???

Wow! Praise God! That is neat!

Number 4 is absolutely clear "4. JESUS "Being In The Form Of God" Makes Him God - Philippians 2:6".

May the Lord Jesus richly bless you, GRACE ambassador.

 

[keithr]

I've done a minimal amount of research on what heaven meant to the Jews, enough to know that it's quite different than our modern Western view. I'll delve into it more thanks to your post.

I don't think we will be able to understand what heaven, and being a spirit being, is like until after our resurrection when we will get to experience it. That's because, as our scientists will inform us, it most likely means existing in other dimensions that we don't have access too in our physical world. We live in four dimension - three dimensions of space, and time. Spirit beings live in at least one more dimension. That's why scientists/researchers tell us that these UFOs that seem to defy the laws of physics with their motions, and which can just appear and disappear out of thin air, must be because they come from other dimensions. They are, of course, demonic, building up to a great deception:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (ESV):

(3) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
(5) Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
(6) And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
(8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
(9) The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
(10) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(11) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

One of the big questions I have about the pre-existrance Jesus is that it would hardly make him like all other humans, which he supposedly is.

Heb 2:17,

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​

On the contrary, as you quoted Jesus was "made like unto his brethren" - God translated/changed his nature from spirit being to human being, fully 100% human. And God changed Jesus' nature again at his resurrection, so that he now has the divine nature and is immortal (will live forever).

It's difficult to comprehend, but it seems to me that there must be some part of us that is not physical, which continues to exist after we die. At death we become unconscious, like being in a deep sleep, as Jesus described it, John 11:11-14 (WEB):

(11) He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
(12) The disciples therefore said, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.
(14) So Jesus said to them plainly then, “Lazarus is dead.​

This is why Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB), "Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".

So after death we will only have conscious thoughts again when/if God restores us to life again, in the resurrection. God will then give us a new body/nature, just like he did with Jesus. As Paul puts it, 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (WEB):

(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.
(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
(5) Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
(7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.
(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
(9) Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.
(10) For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

1 Corinthians 15:37-49 (WEB):

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

The other thing is that if he existed forever in the past, then presumably he would exist forever in the future. Again, hardly like the rest of us. Also, what would his death really mean if he really was a man like the rest of us, but somehow existed forever also. I can't shake the feeling that, when the whole scope of scripture is considered, it just seems out of place.

I don't believe that Jesus did exist "forever in the past". He is God's only begotten son, so God must have existed before Jesus, therefore Jesus cannot have existed "forever in the past". Living for a long time doesn't mean that you will live forever in the future. Jesus died. He is only alive now because God restored Jesus to life. God changed Jesus' nature so that he is now immortal and will live forever, but living forever doesn't mean that you have always existed. We will live forever (that is our hope and faith) but we have not lived "forever in the past".

I just looked up John 20:17 and noticed something interesting. Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his God and his Father. But check out this in Matthew:

Matt 28:9,

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.​

...
Why could Mary not touch Jesus because he had not ascended, but other's could? Maybe "ascending" doesn't necessarily mean going up to heaven? Maybe it means something else that happened between the time Jesus met Mary and the time he met the others. It sure seems that way.

Try some different translations, e.g.:
(WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

(ESV):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Mary was touching Jesus. Jesus simply told her to not waste time continuing to cling to him, for he was going to be around for a little while longer, but instead to go and tell his disciples that he will soon go to be with his Father. God had restored him to life again, but Jesus had not yet gone to God to formally present his sacrifice on behalf of mankind. His disciples later saw him ascend into heaven (well, into the sky, for we can't see where heaven is).

 

[Rich R]

Rich R, I do not want you to go to hell. I love you as I love myself, so I tell you the trajectory that you are traveling for I was on such a trajectory before I was saved by the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) named Jesus Christ the Lord of all.

You had written "These verses state in no uncertain terms that God can repent" regarding Jeremiah 18:6-10 AFTER God had me present the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) to you.

Rich R, it is written "the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” (Prophet Samuel, 1 Samuel 15:29).

Exod 32:12-14,

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever.

14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
​

Deut 32:36,

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.​

Ps 135:14,

For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.
​

Jer 18:8,

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
​

Jer 18:10,

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
​

Jer 26:13,

Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.​

How do these verses fit with others that say God does not repent? The answer requires some honest, open minded, research, free from inflexible, preconceived ideas.

As you were shown, the Lord does not change, so "I will be" fails as a proper translation for ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

Truly, "I AM" is the proper translation for the Hebrew word ehyeh in Exodus 3:14, thus we have "I AM Who I AM" with YHWH expressing God’s tie-in with Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

Not necessarily, as evidenced by the verse I just quoted. Obviously, more study is needed.

When you try to disassociate Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 in your heart, then you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

Maybe it is you who calls the word of God a lie? Maybe you don't know God? You apparently see Him as a non-flexible bully who will do whatever He wants regardless of what people may or may not do. I see Him as a loving and gracious God who is able to respond appropriately to man's free will actions. And He does it in such a way that He is still able to bring about His final goals. That's resourcefulness to the max!

I understand that there are certain things God will absolutely accomplish, namely the new heaven and new earth, Whereas you see Him dong that by a fixed, inflexible route, I see Him doing it in conjugation with free will people. Any god can force his will upon the people, regardless of how the people react to him. YHWH is not at all like that. Instead of forcing, He is able to lovingly and patiently convince people to carry out His will.

God didn't take just back the dominion He gave to Adam and Eve, come down to earth (why after 4,000 years of human suffering is another question), take back their dominion, and make things right again all by Himself. That's a weak god. Our God is much bigger than that. He actually convinced enough people to copy and preserve His words, the instructions Jesus would need to finalize God's plan of redemption. Jesus, being a man, had complete free will to follow those instructions to the end. The fact that any man, just like the rest of us, did that is beyond comprehension. Out of the billions of people that have inhabited this planet, only one had the fortitude to obey YHWH in all points. Didn't miss a jot or tittle. If you think that is disrespectful, than all I can say is that it shows the tremendous power of tradition in the face of truth.

If you see it some other way...oh well...you just have a dry, bully, un-imaginative, un-resourceful, un-feeling god...the same as all the other Ancient Near Eastern gods. Sorry, but the God I worship is light years ahead of the others.

 

[Rich R]

I don't think we will be able to understand what heaven, and being a spirit being, is like until after our resurrection when we will get to experience it. That's because, as our scientists will inform us, it most likely means existing in other dimensions that we don't have access too in our physical world. We live in four dimension - three dimensions of space, and time. Spirit beings live in at least one more dimension. That's why scientists/researchers tell us that these UFOs that seem to defy the laws of physics with their motions, and which can just appear and disappear out of thin air, must be because they come from other dimensions. They are, of course, demonic, building up to a great deception:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (ESV):

(3) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
(5) Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
(6) And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
(8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
(9) The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
(10) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(11) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

On the contrary, as you quoted Jesus was "made like unto his brethren" - God translated/changed his nature from spirit being to human being, fully 100% human. And God changed Jesus' nature again at his resurrection, so that he now has the divine nature and is immortal (will live forever).

It's difficult to comprehend, but it seems to me that there must be some part of us that is not physical, which continues to exist after we die. At death we become unconscious, like being in a deep sleep, as Jesus described it, John 11:11-14 (WEB):

(11) He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
(12) The disciples therefore said, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.
(14) So Jesus said to them plainly then, “Lazarus is dead.​

This is why Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB), "Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".

So after death we will only have conscious thoughts again when/if God restores us to life again, in the resurrection. God will then give us a new body/nature, just like he did with Jesus. As Paul puts it, 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (WEB):

(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.
(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
(5) Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
(7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.
(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
(9) Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.
(10) For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

1 Corinthians 15:37-49 (WEB):

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

I don't believe that Jesus did exist "forever in the past". He is God's only begotten son, so God must have existed before Jesus, therefore Jesus cannot have existed "forever in the past". Living for a long time doesn't mean that you will live forever in the future. Jesus died. He is only alive now because God restored Jesus to life. God changed Jesus' nature so that he is now immortal and will live forever, but living forever doesn't mean that you have always existed. We will live forever (that is our hope and faith) but we have not lived "forever in the past".


Try some different translations, e.g.:
(WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

(ESV):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Mary was touching Jesus. Jesus simply told her to not waste time continuing to cling to him, for he was going to be around for a little while longer, but instead to go and tell his disciples that he will soon go to be with his Father. God had restored him to life again, but Jesus had not yet gone to God to formally present his sacrifice on behalf of mankind. His disciples later saw him ascend into heaven (well, into the sky, for we can't see where heaven is).

Well, I think it's great, that unlike many Christians, you recognize the dead are actually dead until raised up again. Better that than believe the lie of Satan that we really don't die, that we somehow actually live on in some other form. If that's true, then why are the dead in Christ raised? Why the resurrections of the just and the unjust? God made the raising and the resurrections so the dead will rise again and be judged. Plato was wrong!

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus said that he came from heaven, meaning that He came from God; God was his source. The Jews would not have taken Christ’s words to mean that he “incarnated” or was somehow God. It was a common use of language for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source, and there are a number of verses that show that is true.

James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Jesus’ words should be understood the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, and God directly fathered Jesus.

Men do not pre exist . The Son did prior to becoming a man hence He was sent from heaven .

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me(your Son in verse 2) in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.



Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,


Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.

The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Rich R]

Men do not pre exist . The Son did prior to becoming a man hence He was sent from heaven .

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me(your Son in verse 2) in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.



Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,


Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.

The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!

As you know, the Bible was not written last year in New York of LA. It was written thousands of years ago to a Semitic people who had a radically different worldview than that of our own Greek influenced modern Western point of view.

God wrote to these people in terms they could understand. Unfortunately for us, that often means we must dig deeper in the scriptures to get the point. However, with the lately discovered (last 100 years or so) archeological material describing life and thought in the Ancient Near East, our task becomes somewhat easier.

Check out this post describing what the Jews understood about things coming down from heaven:

Jesus Came Down From Heaven - One God Worship
​

The Jews never would have understood the "word" in John 1 as God coming down to earth. The understood the word "logos" ("word" in John 1), as meaning God's plan of redemption.

We need go nor further than Strong's Concordance to see that it is not talking about some god being reincarnated as a person. Such an idea, prevalent in Greek thought, was anathema to the Jews.

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.
1. a word, something said (including the thought).
2. (by implication) a saying or expression.
3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).
4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).
5. (thus) a matter.
6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).
7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).
8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).
9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).
10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).​

Clearly, logos, is not a person, despite the capital 'W' that translators used without warrant. Jesus is not a Pagan god-man. He is called a man in no ambiguous terms about a half dozen times. On the other hand, the scriptures tell us in clear terms that God is not a man.

 

[ChristisGod]

As you know, the Bible was not written last year in New York of LA. It was written thousands of years ago to a Semitic people who had a radically different worldview than that of our own Greek influenced modern Western point of view.

God wrote to these people in terms they could understand. Unfortunately for us, that often means we must dig deeper in the scriptures to get the point. However, with the lately discovered (last 100 years or so) archeological material describing life and thought in the Ancient Near East, our task becomes somewhat easier.

Check out this post describing what the Jews understood about things coming down from heaven:

Jesus Came Down From Heaven - One God Worship
​

The Jews never would have understood the "word" in John 1 as God coming down to earth. The understood the word "logos" ("word" in John 1), as meaning God's plan of redemption.

We need go nor further than Strong's Concordance to see that it is not talking about some god being reincarnated as a person. Such an idea, prevalent in Greek thought, was anathema to the Jews.

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.
1. a word, something said (including the thought).
2. (by implication) a saying or expression.
3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).
4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).
5. (thus) a matter.
6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).
7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).
8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).
9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).
10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).​

Clearly, logos, is not a person, despite the capital 'W' that translators used without warrant. Jesus is not a Pagan god-man. He is called a man in no ambiguous terms about a half dozen times. On the other hand, the scriptures tell us in clear terms that God is not a man.

Wrong again with your presuppositions.

It says God is not a man “ that He should Lie” God unlike man does not LIE since He is Truth, Holy , Righteous, Sinless .

And that’s exactly who Jesus is the Godman. God in the flesh , all the fullness of Deity dwells in Him.

next

 

[Wrangler]

all the fullness of Deity dwells in Him

That's obviously not true as a deity is immortal and Jesus died.

 

[ChristisGod]

That's obviously not true as a deity is immortal and Jesus died.

Try reading and believing Gods word

Colossians 1:19
Colossians 2:9

hope this helps !!!

 

[Rich R]

Wrong again with your presuppositions.

It says God is not a man “ that He should Lie” God unlike man does not LIE since He is Truth, Holy , Righteous, Sinless .

And that’s exactly who Jesus is the Godman. God in the flesh , all the fullness of Deity dwells in Him.

next

I've never seen open minded research done as quickly as you appear to have done! Or do you summarily rejected everything I said simply because it doesn't agree with orthodox doctrine? Considering the time you spent, I should say the lack of time you spent, I'm going to say its the later.

I once thought exactly like you until someone presented me evidence to the contrary and I took an honest, open minded look at it.

Do you have anything more detailed than that my presuppositions are wrong? Did the Jews actually think exactly like we do in the modern West?