A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

That is your assumption.....Jesus was answering a question about his age....telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born. That is it. Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came from heaven, so he clearly existed as God’s “firstborn” who is the “image “ of his invisible Father, who is also his God. (Colossians 1:15-17) So right there is the truth. Jesus existed before Abraham as the “Logos” (one who speaks God’s words) but nowhere does scripture ever tell us that the pre-human Jesus was Almighty God. The Jews had no such belief and would never have accepted a Messiah who claimed to be God incarnate. That would have been blasphemous. You demonstrate no understanding about who Jesus was from the Jewish point of view. Jesus’ audience was exclusively Jewish. They had to understand his teachings from their own scripture.


The Greek “theos” means a god or god-like one. Look it up in a concordance.

John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” one is “ho theos” (the God Yahweh) and the other is just “theos” which can be any divine one or one with divine authority. “The Word” is not said to be “ho theos” But was “with” “ho theos”, “in the beginning”. If Jesus was God he had no “beginning”, but Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He is God’s “firstborn” which describes his life in heaven as the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. All things came into existence “through” him, but not from him. (John 1:3)


And if you say it often enough, it must be true? :.....Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority. Were these Judges part of God too? (John 10:31-36)
Even when Jesus returned to heaven, he still called his Father “my God”. (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven? Who worships who? There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.


The trinity has three gods.....all equal and co-eternal.....whereas the Bible presents Jesus as the son of a loving Father who was willing to offer his life to redeem mankind.
Jesus had to die to pay that debt....if he was God, he was immortal and could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God.


What does “theos” mean according to original word concordance reference.
It does not mean Yahweh.....in Greek the multitude of their gods all had names to differentiate them. The Jews had stopped uttering the divine name and had substituted his titles in all the places in their scripture where the divine name appeared. To differentiate this one God of the Jews, (who at that time had no name) the only way to do that was to use the definite article (the...”ho”) When you read John 1:1 in a Greek to English Interlinear you will see that Yahweh was called “ho theos” whereas Jesus (the Word) was just called “theos” or “a god or divine” personage. The word “theos” also applies to those with divine authority....whereas the definite article “ho” describes only Yahweh. Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Divinity does not only mean deity.


Do you see how much assertion you use to demonstrate the veracity of what you believe?
“Immanuel” is a prophetic name meaning that God would be “with” his people by means of the son that would be born as Savior and redeemer.
Acts ch 7 describes what happened with Moses who told the Israelites that God would raise up a prophet like himself....
Acts 7:37-39...
“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘ God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen.’ This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you. Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him; on the contrary they rejected him and turned back to Egypt in their hearts”. (NASB)

Moses said that God was going to raise up a prophet like himself......that one proved to be Jesus.
How was God “with” Israel in the days when Moses was the mediator of the old covenant? He was “with” his people by means of those who represented him.
Now how was God “with” his people in the days when Jesus was going to inaugurate a “new covenant” with them? In the very same way.

Your research and your assumptions are based on very superficial study, corrupted doctrines and false religious ideas which do not hold water when compared with what all that the scriptures tell us about the identity of the son of God.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you and I both know that Christ himself will adjudicate in this issue....those found to be failing to teach the truth but substituting lies, about himself and his relationship with his God and Father....will not fare well.

You wrote that Jesus was "telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born", and IN THAT "TELLING" JESUS DECLARED THAT JESUS ALWAYS EXISTS PRIOR TO ABRAHAM; therefore, Jesus is uncreated; moreover, Jesus' statement recorded in John 8:58 indicates that Jesus is God because only God is eternal.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Keiw]

You are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context, so you construct an idol that is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Either catholicism is correct if any trinity religion is correct, because they were the first trinity religion, or none of them are correct because catholicism erred in translating to fit false council teachings. Their own translating exposes them as false, thus all of those religions them are false.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

No Jesus is not the holy spirit. The holy spirit isnt a living being. It has no name, no throne, God taught it nothing, nor shared anything with it like he did with the son. God and Jesus are mentioned as separate in many NT passages, Very important passages, the HS -0 in those important passages.

All 3 are as one bro ! That's the Trinity. if one does not understand such then you do not have the Holy Spirit in fact, then one is only religious ? just like the Jews who were not Saved ?
Now the Disciples of Jesus had faith that he was ? but they only knew he was when he went up to Heaven ? the Holy Spirit informed them of this fact ! and no one can come to the Father, but through his only begotten Son !

God outside of the Trinity is not God, but only a god ?
The Jews and Islam do not have a God, they have gods. regardless because they do not know God at all. They are a Mans works Religion.
Islam has a Jesus ? but it's not Jesus Christ at all. they reject him because they are under a curse ! just like the Jews are.
If one does not know Christ Jesus you are a curse ! a blight. such a one is not under Grace ! You must be born again of the Holy Spirit ? without the Holy Spirit one is dead to understand the Trinity in fact, because it will not compute, it will not compute because one is worldly, one needs the Holy Spirit to understand truly. such a thing is not given to carnal worldly people, be the religious or not. Religion never Saved, only Christ Jesus Saves ones Soul.

If it is not of Jesus Christ, it is not worthy at all.

 

[Kermos]

That is your assumption.....Jesus was answering a question about his age....telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born. That is it. Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came from heaven, so he clearly existed as God’s “firstborn” who is the “image “ of his invisible Father, who is also his God. (Colossians 1:15-17) So right there is the truth. Jesus existed before Abraham as the “Logos” (one who speaks God’s words) but nowhere does scripture ever tell us that the pre-human Jesus was Almighty God. The Jews had no such belief and would never have accepted a Messiah who claimed to be God incarnate. That would have been blasphemous. You demonstrate no understanding about who Jesus was from the Jewish point of view. Jesus’ audience was exclusively Jewish. They had to understand his teachings from their own scripture.


The Greek “theos” means a god or god-like one. Look it up in a concordance.

John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” one is “ho theos” (the God Yahweh) and the other is just “theos” which can be any divine one or one with divine authority. “The Word” is not said to be “ho theos” But was “with” “ho theos”, “in the beginning”. If Jesus was God he had no “beginning”, but Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He is God’s “firstborn” which describes his life in heaven as the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. All things came into existence “through” him, but not from him. (John 1:3)


And if you say it often enough, it must be true? :.....Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority. Were these Judges part of God too? (John 10:31-36)
Even when Jesus returned to heaven, he still called his Father “my God”. (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven? Who worships who? There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.


The trinity has three gods.....all equal and co-eternal.....whereas the Bible presents Jesus as the son of a loving Father who was willing to offer his life to redeem mankind.
Jesus had to die to pay that debt....if he was God, he was immortal and could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God.


What does “theos” mean according to original word concordance reference.
It does not mean Yahweh.....in Greek the multitude of their gods all had names to differentiate them. The Jews had stopped uttering the divine name and had substituted his titles in all the places in their scripture where the divine name appeared. To differentiate this one God of the Jews, (who at that time had no name) the only way to do that was to use the definite article (the...”ho”) When you read John 1:1 in a Greek to English Interlinear you will see that Yahweh was called “ho theos” whereas Jesus (the Word) was just called “theos” or “a god or divine” personage. The word “theos” also applies to those with divine authority....whereas the definite article “ho” describes only Yahweh. Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Divinity does not only mean deity.


Do you see how much assertion you use to demonstrate the veracity of what you believe?
“Immanuel” is a prophetic name meaning that God would be “with” his people by means of the son that would be born as Savior and redeemer.
Acts ch 7 describes what happened with Moses who told the Israelites that God would raise up a prophet like himself....
Acts 7:37-39...
“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘ God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen.’ This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you. Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him; on the contrary they rejected him and turned back to Egypt in their hearts”. (NASB)

Moses said that God was going to raise up a prophet like himself......that one proved to be Jesus.
How was God “with” Israel in the days when Moses was the mediator of the old covenant? He was “with” his people by means of those who represented him.
Now how was God “with” his people in the days when Jesus was going to inaugurate a “new covenant” with them? In the very same way.

Your research and your assumptions are based on very superficial study, corrupted doctrines and false religious ideas which do not hold water when compared with what all that the scriptures tell us about the identity of the son of God.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you and I both know that Christ himself will adjudicate in this issue....those found to be failing to teach the truth but substituting lies, about himself and his relationship with his God and Father....will not fare well.

You wrote that Jesus was "Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said", and IN THAT STATEMENT ABOUT JESUS' DECLARATION RECORDED IN JOHN 8:58, YOU PROVE THAT YOU CANNOT SPIRITUALLY, ACCURATELY, NOR TRUTHFULLY EXPLAIN JESUS' WORDS OF "TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM" (JOHN 8:58) for Jesus says that Jesus is "I AM" as recorded in Exodus 3:14; moreover, Jesus' statement recorded in John 8:58 indicates that Jesus is God! Praise be to the Living God Jesus Christ!

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 are most certainly germane to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the John passage's exchange revolves around "who God is". Context for John 8:58 is established.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

You, Aunty Jane, have excluded yourself from God's Memorial name to all generations.

 

[keithr]

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

No he doesn't! Why would Jesus talk nonsense? For example, if a person named John was older than a person called Abraham, John wouldn't say to another person, "Before Abraham was born, John". It wouldn't make any sense. What Jesus was saying is, "Most certainly, I tell you, since before Abraham came into existence, I have been existing”.

The KJV says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." The Greek word translated was, ginomai, means 'to become (come into being)', and the Greek word translated as am, eimi, means 'have been'. So a more precise translation would be "Before Abraham came into being, I have been".

Jesus did not reply to the Jews question, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" (verse 57) with "I declare that I am the God known as I Am". He replied that he had been existing from before Abraham was born, backing up his statement "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" (verse 56). You should not take the verse out of the context of the recorded conversation, and especially not take two words of the sentence out of context of the sentence!

You, Aunty Jane, have excluded yourself from God's Memorial name to all generations.

What does that mean? How can anyone include or exclude themselves with/from God's name YHVH?

 

[PinSeeker]

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

No he doesn't!

Yes, He does. The name I AM expresses And Paul says:

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, Who is the head of all rule and authority." (Colossians 2:8-10, emphasis added)

Why would Jesus talk nonsense? For example, if a person named John was older than a person called Abraham, John wouldn't say to another person, "Before Abraham was born, John".

LOL! Wow. No, the name I AM is not "just a name," it is actually a statement, really, about Who He is in His position above all, even the Creator ~ His glory ~ and His omnipotence and His unchanging and eternal nature. And Christ Jesus, in John 8:58, is saying it's true of Him.

In a lesser sense, we do the same sort of thing, actually, with a lot of the names we give our children. But we can't know who or what they are, it's more about what we hope they will grow to be, really. To what you say here (sort of), the name John is derived from the Hebrew Yohanan, meaning “graced by God.” And well, that's true of all of us, really, that we are graced by God (whether we realize it or not). But John is a name that exudes strength, smarts, and kindness. So it's both a truth of the person (baby, when he is born) and a hope of the kind of person he will become. Anyway, the point is, names are important, and we follow, as much as we can anyway, in the image of God and His name in our name-giving.

But back to Jesus, and I AM, Christ Jesus is one with the Father, as He said, which seems, if you think about it, on the surface at least, to be a total misnomer, but it's most assuredly not. :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Kermos]

All good points.

Another relevant aspect is agency. In the Ancient Near East an agent was considered virtualy identical to the one who sent him. Pharaoh gave Joseph complete authority over Egypt. Joseph's words were as good as Pharaoh's. The only thing Joseph did not have was Pharaoh's throne.

Gen 41:40,

Thou (Joseph) shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

Remember, Joseph was a type of Christ.

Then there's this,

1Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

One "part" of God subject to another "part" part of God????? What????

In Truth (John 14:6), @Aunty Jane's points are NOT good; therefore, Aunty Jane's points are evil. The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

Aunty Jane takes Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane imposes her evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane serves her father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Truth (John 14:6), @Aunty Jane's points are NOT good; therefore, Aunty Jane's points are evil. The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

Aunty Jane takes Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane imposes her evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane serves her father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

Naughty, evil Aunty Jane .....how dare I challenge the very foundational doctrine of Christendom!...the most divided and evil empire in the religious world. The one who alone claims to serve the interests of their “Lord and Savior” only to disobey all of his teachings...and to present a god to the people who never existed in official church doctrine before the 4th century.

Why did it take over 300 years to make Jesus and the holy spirit into God? Have you never wondered? 1+1+1=3...not one. This concept is entirely missing from God’s word because all the Bible writers were Jewish.....the Jews had no trinity.

If you are right then God is a liar (Deuteronomy 6:4)....But if I am right then all that you accuse me of doing, falls right back on those who believe as you do. Blasphemy carried the death penalty in Israel. No devout Jew in Jesus’ day would ever have entertained the idea that Jesus was God incarnate because that would have breached the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
“God the Father”....”God the Son”....and “God the Holy Spirit” are three gods....all put in the Father’s place. The Jews never knew such a God who was the father of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

So you speak for Jesus now...? That is laughable....
Jesus had to be 100% human to pay the redemption price for the sinful human race. He had to be mortal in order to offer the same life as Adam lost for his children.... “a sinless life for a sinless life”. That was God’s law.

If Jesus was God, then his immortality would have prevented his death, proving that Jesus was not God or ever was....nor was there ever reason for God himself to come to earth to die for one of his lower creations. Even John wrote that “no man has ever seen God”....(John 1:18) How many people saw Jesus?

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

You really should read your Bible and see for yourself what it teaches.....

Regarding the context in which Jesus’ words appear in John 10:30, these reveal what he meant. A group of Jews had encircled him, demanding that he tell them outspokenly whether he was indeed the Christ. Answering them, Jesus stated: “I have told you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name are my witness; but you do not believe, because you are no sheep of mine. The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life; they will never be lost and no one will ever steal them from me. The Father who gave them to me is greater than anyone, and no one can steal from the Father. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:25-30 Jerusalem Bible)

Jesus also said to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you . . . I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine . . . Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.” (John 17:6-11)
Was Jesus saying that his disciples were part of the ‘godhead’ too?

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

You seem oblivious to the scriptures that make your claims erroneous....
Revelation 3:12, which was from Jesus when he had long returned to heaven.....

“The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.” (ESV)

The Father was still his God when he was no longer in the flesh. And Jesus has a new name. The Father only ever had one....YHWH, (Psalm 83:18) which he said was to be his Memorial name for all generations to come. (Exodus 3:15)

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

If you believe that, who is anyone to tell you differently.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what is truth...but it had better be based solely on God’s word rather than the twisted version given to it by Christendom. At the judgment, those convinced of their error will be the last to know. (Matthew 7:21-23) Some of us are going to be very disappointed with the decisions we made, but they will be all our own doing....and no one can sway the judge with excuses.

 

[Kermos]

In Ezekial the house of Jacob of future prophecy was talking about the 144,000--Jesus being the Archangel Michael will rule over them forever. But fact is he hands the kingdom back to its rightful owner-YHWH(Jehovah) he alone is king of eternity.

Either catholicism is correct if any trinity religion is correct, because they were the first trinity religion, or none of them are correct because catholicism erred in translating to fit false council teachings. Their own translating exposes them as false, thus all of those religions them are false.

Ezekiel does not mention the 144,000, so now you are adding "144,000" into the the Book of Ezekiel! Your wickedness compounds!

Gabriel declares Jesus will reign in the kingdom of God forever with "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus is King (Matthew 27:11, John 18:36).

You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, so your deceptions about the Bible clearly show that you do not understand Spiritual matters, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

Aunty Jane serves her father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

The discussion with the Jews was not about "who God is". Read it again:

(31) Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples.
(32) You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
(33) They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?”
(34) Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin.
(35) A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever.
(36) If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
(37) I know that you are Abraham’s offspring, yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you.
(38) I say the things which I have seen with my Father; and you also do the things which you have seen with your father.”
(39) They answered him, “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham didn’t do this.
(41) You do the works of your father.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father, God.”
(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.
(43) Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.
(44) You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn’t stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
(45) But because I tell the truth, you don’t believe me.
(46) Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
(47) He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don’t hear, because you are not of God.”
(48) Then the Jews answered him, “Don’t we say well that you are a Samaritan, and have a demon?”
(49) Jesus answered, “I don’t have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.
(50) But I don’t seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges.
(51) Most certainly, I tell you, if a person keeps my word, he will never see death.”
(52) Then the Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and you say, ‘If a man keeps my word, he will never taste of death.’
(53) Are you greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The prophets died. Who do you make yourself out to be?”
(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.
(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.”
(57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
(58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I am.”

Note that Jesus did not say "I am God", he said that God was his Father and that Jesus knows God.

 

[Scott Downey]

OUR BIBLE tells us the WORD was GOD, and HE, the WORD became flesh as Jesus Christ.

The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John’s Witness: The True Light
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

and v12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

HOW SO YOU SAY?
Well we who receive Christ are the adopted children of God the Father and of through God the Son, otherwise we could not have joined into the family of God.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

Ephesians 3
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Obviously we are only sons and part of the family of God because of Jesus Christ by whom we are called and known as Christians.

 

[keithr]

OUR BIBLE tells us the WORD was GOD, and HE, the WORD became flesh as Jesus Christ.

Are you sure the Bble tells us that? See post #230.

 

[Scott Downey]

Are you sure the Bble tells us that? An alternative explanation of the prologue to John’s Gospel - John 1:1-5:

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

In his prologue (John 1:1-5) John is introducing what his gospel is all about – the ministry of Jesus. John uses Genesis language and imagery in his introductory statements. He starts off with “In the beginning”, the same words as the first words of Genesis 1:1. He says that everything that came to be was through the Word (verse 3), just as we see in Genesis (God spoke, and it came to pass). In verse 5 John says, “The light shines in the darkness”, and in Genesis it says there was darkness and God said “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3).

Most Christians have been taught the Trinitarian/traditional viewpoint, which assumes that John’s use of Genesis language is to set the time frame of what is occurring in verse 1. But what if that assumption is wrong? Genesis 1:1 is an introductory statement that introduces a description of how God created the heavens and the earth. It is referring to a time period – the six days of creation. The ‘beginning’ was that time period of six days. Although John uses Genesis imagery throughout the first five verses, verse 4 and the latter part of verse 5 do not fit the creation account, but they do perfectly fit the ministry of Jesus, and that was also a time period. This tells us that John may have been referring to the ministry of Jesus.

Trinitarian commentators have themselves observed that John uses creation imagery throughout his Gospel to refer to the new creation. Jesus’ ministry is how the new creation began. The new creation of God is the result of Jesus’ ministry, beginning with his baptism through to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the firstfruits of the new creation of God (“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept”, 1 Corinthians 15:20).

In Genesis, God created by means of His spoken word. But now God creates things anew by means of His word which became flesh - “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth”, John 1:14. For example, humans can now become new creations in Christ Jesus, and this is only because of the ministry of Jesus - “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”, John 1:12,13.

Since John 1:1-5 is his introductory statement, we should expect him to be introducing what his gospel account is about, and what is contained in his gospel, and that is what he is doing right from verse 1. Jesus’ ministry is the beginning of the Christian faith, and Jesus is the author, the beginning, of our salvation and faith, and his ministry is how the new creation began (“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new”, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Verse one is often used by believers in the Trinity to claim that Jesus was God, despite other Scripture verses that prove that can’t be true. To interpret verse 1 Trinitarians resort to interpretation by imagination. John did not say, “In the beginning was the son”, nor “the son was with God” and nor did he say “the son was God”. Neither did he say “the son became flesh”. Just because in Revelation 19:13 it says the rider on the white horse was named “The word of God”, we should not assume that John meant in his introduction that the Word was God’s son.

In verses 3 and 4 most translations use the word ‘him’. However, unlike English, in Greek nouns have a gender, so inanimate things have a gender. For example petra, a rock, is feminine. The Greek word logos (which means a spoken word, and is translated as ‘word’) is masculine, so the pronoun ‘him’ is used to match the gender of the noun it refers to. It is a matter of grammar. A spoken word, logos, is masculine in Greek, but that doesn’t mean that a spoken word is a person.

Without having knowledge of the Greek language, English speaking readers are easily duped into thinking that John is identifying the ‘word’ of verses 1 and 2 as a person. However, the Greek word translated as ‘him’ (autos) is not equivalent to the English word ‘him’. It would be equally valid to translate it as herself or itself. Likewise the Greek word houtos in verse 2, usually translated as “the same” but sometimes translated as ‘he’, does not necessarily imply it’s referring to a person.

The Greek words autos and houtos are not like the English words him, her and it. We can only deduce which English pronoun to use when referring to the context. The Greek words are more like the English word ‘this’, which can refer to a person or an object, e.g. “This is my wife”, “This is an apple”. John 6:60 is extremely instructive of this, it includes the statement “This word is hard; who is able to hear it?” (YLT), where the words translated as ‘This’, ‘word’ and ‘it’ are Houtos, logos and autos. Likewise the words translated as ‘He’ and ‘him’ in John 1:2-4 should be translated as ‘this’ and ‘it’. So all that the Greek text of verses 1-3 tells us is:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The word was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be.

In the Trinity world you have God in Genesis creating by means of two different words: by a word that is spoken, and by a person called “the word”. That doesn’t make sense. But if “the word” is referring to the word, or message, proclaimed by the ministry of Jesus, the word Jesus said he kept, his food, his bread, to do the will of the Father and to continue His work, the Good News of the Kingdom of God, then it starts to make a lot more sense.
(To be continued.)

That is from your fake bible though and your hideous commentaries.

 

[keithr]

That is from your fake bible though and your hideous commentaries.

What fake Bible? What hideous commentaries? I got the information from The Trinity Delusion YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzGLYkM3mX-Q-fx-MzuThww

See the associated website The Trinity Delusion: The False Doctrine of the Trinity. See the About page, where the author writes:

The articles on this website are not Watchtower, Arian, Oneness or Modalist. You won't be doing yourself a favor by attempting to describe my beliefs with labels like these or any other.

I do not ascribe to any particular denominational banner or belief system label. People serve those things and no one can have two masters. We should serve the Lord Jesus Christ not the creeds of men.​

 

[Rich R]

Ezekiel does not mention the 144,000, so now you are adding "144,000" into the the Book of Ezekiel! Your wickedness compounds!

Wickedness compounds because a dear child of God might make a mistake? Do you know it all? If not, why are you not compounding wickedness?

I'm starting to see a lot of un-Christ like behavior here. Not that I'm perfect. The only perfect one is Jesus, but we can and should do better than condemning each other for maybe misunderstanding the scriptures in some point or another. The devil does a good enough job of condemning us all by himself. He certainly doesn't need the help of Christians.

God bless

 

[Pierac]

Gabriel declares Jesus will reign in the kingdom of God forever with "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus is King (Matthew 27:11, John 18:36).

The Bible does not state that the one thousand years is Jesus' only reign nor excludes the 1,000 years as part of a larger reign for Jesus.

You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

Really ... What Bible are you reading??? You would do well to study the Greek word "forever" in Luke.... AION

That very greek word is used as follows....

“Let us look at how the word aion is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.

In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come."

In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions). "

In Eph. 2:2 we find "you walked, according to the course aion of this world."

In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."

In Heb. 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the Word of God."

In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32,1 Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)". Twice we find "this present world (aion). "

In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."

In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."

In 11 Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)."

In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."

In Lk. 16:8 we find, "the children of this world (aion)."

In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."

How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come."

In Lk. 20:35 we find, "but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

In Heb. 6:5 we find, "and have tasted the powers of the world (aion) to come."

And in Lk. 1:70, Jn. 9:32, etc., we find that the aion had a beginning: "since the world (aion) began."

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made by Christ, simply through His spoken Word, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

Now, if aion means eternal, consider how ridiculous the Word of God would be! The Holy Spirit would be found saying, "the mystery which has been hid from eternities;" "the mystery of Christ which in other eternities was not made known;" "in the eternities to come;" "You walked according to the eternity of this world;" "by whom also He made the eternities;" "the rulers of the darkness of this eternity;" "now once in the end of the eternities has He appeared;" "the harvest is the end of the eternity;" "since eternity began;" "in the eternities to come," etc. etc. Let the scholars whose business it is delve into the many intricacies of expression, and worry over the many grammatical combinations. Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture! “

Now what does Paul teach.... that matches with Aion in scripture...

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (GOD). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

Scripture gets all screwed up when you think God's chosen/begotten Christ is actually God Himself!!!

Kermos... Please think before you post! I know it's not something promoted in your Church... Your told to sit and listen every Sunday and keep your mouth shut and believe what your told!!

Paul

 

[Pierac]

You are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context, so you construct an idol that is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

No... It is you... whom are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context...

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy above, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being. To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Remember, God is eternal without beginning or End.... Yet scripture teaches over and over again about the beginning of Jesus the Chirst...
Do the Math!!!
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

Good Lord... (see what I did there?) :)

Jesus was born of a woman (Mary) for sure. This was the beginning of His time on earth, in the manner of all men (and women). But in John 1, He was clearly in existence ~ with God the Father ~ at Creation, and all things were made through Him. How anyone could deny His eternality ~ at least past eternality ~ is just astonishing. John specifically says, "All things were made (created) through Him, and without Him was not any thing made (created) that was made (created)." There is absolutely nothing in all of Scripture that indicates or insinuates that Jesus was created; the indication and insinuation is clearly the opposite. This misunderstanding is quite incredible.

The only thing in Scripture that might give one that mistaken impression is the misunderstanding of the concept of being the firstborn, as Paul uses it in Colossians 1. In the clear context of Scripture, "firstborn" indicates preeminence (Paul's context in Colossians 1), and first with regard to rights and privileges of a firstborn son, especially the son of a monarch who would inherit ruling sovereignty. David, who was actually the last of all his brothers, is a prime example. And Jesus, the second/last Adam, is the Greater David.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Keiw]

All 3 are as one bro ! That's the Trinity. if one does not understand such then you do not have the Holy Spirit in fact, then one is only religious ? just like the Jews who were not Saved ?
Now the Disciples of Jesus had faith that he was ? but they only knew he was when he went up to Heaven ? the Holy Spirit informed them of this fact ! and no one can come to the Father, but through his only begotten Son !

God outside of the Trinity is not God, but only a god ?
The Jews and Islam do not have a God, they have gods. regardless because they do not know God at all. They are a Mans works Religion.
Islam has a Jesus ? but it's not Jesus Christ at all. they reject him because they are under a curse ! just like the Jews are.
If one does not know Christ Jesus you are a curse ! a blight. such a one is not under Grace ! You must be born again of the Holy Spirit ? without the Holy Spirit one is dead to understand the Trinity in fact, because it will not compute, it will not compute because one is worldly, one needs the Holy Spirit to understand truly. such a thing is not given to carnal worldly people, be the religious or not. Religion never Saved, only Christ Jesus Saves ones Soul.

If it is not of Jesus Christ, it is not worthy at all.

There are at minimum 4 different Jesus' being taught on earth. The apostles knew nothing of a trinity God. Why do you think that is? The Israelite religion never served a trinity God while serving the true God. Why do you think that is? That means while Jesus was on earth he knew nothing of a trinity God or would have told the Israelite religious leaders they were serving a false God. Instead Jesus teaches that single being God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12-John 4:22-24. He points all to his Father as the only true God-John 17:3

 

[Keiw]

Ezekiel does not mention the 144,000, so now you are adding "144,000" into the the Book of Ezekiel! Your wickedness compounds!

Gabriel declares Jesus will reign in the kingdom of God forever with "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus is King (Matthew 27:11, John 18:36).

You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, so your deceptions about the Bible clearly show that you do not understand Spiritual matters, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

The following are undeniable facts of reality:

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion teach, serve and worship a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)--That means while Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah) his Father, as was every bible writer.
One cannot just throw facts away for errors and think they have Gods favor.
I tell you truly--the capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 is 100% error. Your scholars know it. Fact-Only the Father is called Ho Theos in the NT= The God. there is only 1 God. a god means-has godlike qualities--God did it all through Jesus-Acts2:22-1Cor 8:5-6