3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Beebster]

Hello Joe.

Even the "Two Witnesses" (Rev 11) represent all the Elect. And like Paul's conversion, the Two Witnesses teach the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel.

Yes the "Two Witnesses" (Rev 11) represent all the Elect.

Please elaborate on how the Two Witnesses teach the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel.

Mankind is born spiritually blind due to mankind's marred spirit. The flaw in mankind's spirit is that it is weak. That weakness allows the flesh to govern mankind, thus making everyone carnally minded. It is the carnal mind that blinds a person from "seeing" the true Christ (Word of God).

Romans 8
20 For the creature WAS MADE subject to vanity (we are made this way), NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (so much for free will)
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption INTO the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Elect)
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Those verses say so much.

That we are created carnal beings

That we have no free will

That the children of God are free

That the corrupt (all mankind) shall be saved

Even after an unbeliever is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. It takes both the Early and Latter Rains to be saved.

And it is ALL God’s doing:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21)

However, the Early Rain will give a person a measure of faith which will cause them to make a confession of faith when they are presented the Gospel. But due to their spiritual blindness, all they can truly understand is "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). In other words, they can understand the truth of Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant but the work and teachings of Christ under the New Covenant will remain blurred (Mark 8:15-25).

The Old Testament can be understood in literal terms without spiritual sight however when we are given sight (here a little there a little Isa 28:10) we can see that the Old Testament is also spiritual, filled with shadows and types that the carnal mind cannot see. I’m sure you know that, but I just want to clarify my position here.

The Old Covenant was given to be understood by carnal mankind. It does not require spiritual vision to understand.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25)

However, the New Covenant is spiritualand only the converted Elect who have had their spiritual blindness healed are able to understand it.

To a degree.

And even the converted Elect (or those that seem to be) can lose their eonian life. (see Ezk 28)

Because all new believers remain carnally minded, they will prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine. Because of this preference, it is easy for Satan to deceive a new believer and cause them to mix their own works (Old Wine) with the works of Christ under the New Covenant (New Wine).


Prov 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

When a believer does this mixing, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to death. The false Doctrine of Free Will is this sin's foundational belief.

Yup.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (For the creature WAS MADE subject to vanity- Rom 8:20) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom 8:6-8)

And it is by this sin that Satan spiritually kills the saints and grows the apostate church. All new believers (even the Elect) will be bitten by the serpent and will experience being devoured by the wolves (ministers of Satan) who came into the church near the end of the 1st century A.D. Shortly after Paul's death, all the churches became apostate and nothing has changed since that time.

Well one thing has changed; it’s worse.

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. (2 Tim 3:13)

All of the approximately 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world are apostate. They all mix works with faith.

Yes they “mix their own works” with faith, as you stated earlier.

From false witnesses :

For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together. (Mk 14:56)

To conceit:

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: OTHERWISE ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Mat 6:1)

Cain had the same problem.

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. (Gen 4:3)

I would love to expand on my comments above with scripture. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them.

Joe

Please keep writing. I'll respond when I can.

Peace.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hello Joe.

Dear Beebster,
You said:
Please elaborate on how the Two Witnesses teach the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel.

To understand the pathway to salvation, a person must assemble the pieces (here a little and there a little) of truth that teach it. It is purposefully very difficult to do. Understanding the scripture below is one of the keys to the veiled nature of Christ's spiritual teachings and how He veils it to new believers:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (unconverted believers) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan - this is why a new believer who is spiritually blind and not weaned from milk becomes apostate).

To understand the pathway to salvation, one must understand the concept taught by the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. The same concept is also taught by the marriage analogy. The marriage espousal occurs when an Elect person receives the Early Rain. Then begins the time of waiting (the 3 1/2 years of Daniel, also the same as Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought) for the Bridegroom to return. When the Bridegroom returns (the second coming of Christ), He pours out the Latter Rain and the marriage occurs.

The Early Rain is what Paul received on the Damascus Road and what caused Paul to fall to his knees and call Jesus "Lord". This is what causes a believer to enter the church. It happens solely because Christ gave the person the Early Rain of the Spirit and not because of any free will ability of the person to make that choice. Christ made the choice for them and they merely responded.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit will change a person's heart and mind just as it did for Paul. But since the new believer is left spiritually blind and carnally minded, they will not be able to understand the spiritual teachings of the Christ. Because of their blindness and carnality, Satan will (100% of the time) cause the new believer to "fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken".

If the fallen away believer is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) to the Elect believer. When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain and restore their salvation. Judgment will then follow to remove the chaff (spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot) within the believer. This is what happened to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost and what happened to Paul after being in Damascus for three days. After a believer is converted, they can never fall away again.

The Two Witnesses story teaches many of the details of the pathway to salvation that I summarized above. At the beginning of the Two Witnesses story, it says that they will witness for 1260 days. The outer court is also trampled under foot for 42 months by new believers (not spiritual Jews).

So why does it say 42 months/1260 days? It says it because 3 1/2 years is Christ's unfinished portion of Daniel's Seventy weeks prophecy. Christ was "cutoff" in the midst of the final week when He went to the cross. The first 69 1/2 weeks of years were literal years which occurred under the Old Covenant. But after the resurrection, the fulfillment of the last 3 1/2 years will be completed spiritually and individually within each of the Elect. After the last Elect person is converted, Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy will be fulfilled.

Also, the spiritual term 3 1/2 years is no longer literal time under the New Covenant. It now represents the time between an Elect believer receiving the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. So when you see symbol "3 1/2 years" (or time, times and a half, 42 months and 1260 days), don't think of it as time but as a symbol that represents the time period between the two Rains. That time period is not a set amount of time but varies by the individual.

I have a verse by verse teaching on the Two Witnesses on my website. There is a link to the website just under my member name. The paper is too long to post here.

I agree with all your other comments in your post except for this one:
To a degree. And even the converted Elect (or those that seem to be) can lose their eonian life. (see Ezk 28)

Eze 28 is a spiritual teaching on unconverted apostate believers who have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are represented by the prince of Tyrus (verses 1-10). Notice some of the similarities with what Paul said about the man of sin in 2Thes chapter 2. The man of sin and the prince of Tyrus are one and the same (apostate believers who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit).

The king of Tyrus is a spiritual teaching on Satan. Satan is the father of the prince and this happens when the spirit of anti-Christ indwells a new believer. This is also the spiritual fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation.

After an Elect believer is converted (Early and Latter Rain and judgment), they CANNOT ever fall away again. I can't stress this truth enough. A converted believer is secure in Christ and has entered into His rest.

To fall away does not mean that the converted believer does not sin. It means that they will no longer mix their own works with faith. Their trust is completely in Christ and He will not let any of them slip from His hand.

Believers who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit can fall away. And according to scripture, they will. The pathway to Salvation for the Elect goes through the apostate church. The time that the Two Witnesses lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem is their time in the apostate church. That time is symbolized by the symbol "3 1/2 days".

I agree with your comment "to a degree" on the spiritual understanding of the converted Elect. There are different degrees of understanding but there are still some understandings which are common to all the converted Elect. All the Elect will approach Christ by faith alone (no works of their own) and will understand that Christ is truly the Savior of the world. They will also all "see" the Abomination of Desolation" that occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ previously indwelt them.

Consider these verses:

Mat 24:15 When (not if) ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (reward of the Elect), when it was weary (in a fallen away state).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (Great Harlot who fornicates with Satan), thou refusedst to be ashamed.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day (Day of conversion)? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive (spiritual blindness healed) and see that your wickedness is great (had become a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king (Satan).

If you go to my website, I recommend that you also read my conversion testimony. I was an apostate believer up until I was 44 years old.

From your comments above, I can tell that you already understand a great deal of spiritual truth - truth that is only given to a person after they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is great to finally meet a brother in Christ on this forum.

Joe