Barna Poll: Most Americans - Including Church Members - Reject the Trinity

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Matthias

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But that contradicts the next verse

It does to many (most?) trinitarians but not all trinitarians, and doesn’t at all to Jewish monotheists.

Is Moses a Jewish monotheist or is Moses a trinitarian?

Does making the concession to the historical constraint damage trinitarianism?

I don’t think it does.
 

Matthias

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I’ve never tried this before, and I don’t recommend it to anyone, but …

What would happen if someone went to a Jewish synagogue and announced to the rabbi and his (or her) congregation - “We all believe in the Gods of Israel!”

I think that person would, in some form or fashion, be stoned by said rabbi and congregation.

What would happen if someone went to a trinitarian church and announced to the pastor and his (or her) congregation - “We all believe in the Gods of Israel!”

Same result, or a rousing “Amen!”?

I think said pastor would call for security to escort said person out of the building and off of the property.

What do you think about that @RLT63?

Historical orthodox trinitarianism does not instruct us to believe in “the Gods of Israel”. People need to know this.

P.S.

When Israel ventures into idolatry, then we can legitimately speak - and only in a negative way - about “the gods of Israel”.
 
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Matthias

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I would like for us to get back to the creeds. We left off with the Apostles’ Creed. Would one of the trinitarian members post the original Nicene Creed here for us?

Since no trinitarian member has come forward to do it, I’ll post it for us on their behalf -

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten,
begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made,
of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and
that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change - these the Catholic Church anathematizes.”


This is the state of Nicene orthodoxy in 325. We can’t stop here. The church didn’t. It was soon determined not to have gone far enough. (Which I will document shortly, using Schaff's History of the Christian Church). Some non-trinitarians were able to affirm the original Nicene Creed. (I wouldn’t have been able to, for those who might be wondering.)

I would like to see this taught to everyone. Who among the trinitarians will join me in advocating for it?
 
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JohnDB

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I’ve never tried this before, and I don’t recommend it to anyone, but …

What would happen if someone went to a Jewish synagogue and announced to the rabbi and his (or her) congregation - “We all believe in the Gods of Israel!”

I think that person would, in some form or fashion, be stoned by said rabbi and congregation.

What would happen if someone went to a trinitarian church and announced to the pastor and his (or her) congregation - “We all believe in the Gods of Israel!”

Same result, or a rousing “Amen!”?

I think said pastor would call for security to escort said person out of the building and off of the property.

What do you think about that @RLT63?

Historical orthodox trinitarianism does not instruct us to believe in “the Gods of Israel”. People need to know this.

P.S.

When Israel ventures into idolatry, then we can legitimately speak - and only in a negative way - about “the gods of Israel”.
Ummmm

That literally is the first line of the Shema.

Try again
The Jews would say that he read it correctly.

The Bible was written in 4 languages on the other side of the planet to a very Caste based society which has very little resemblance to today's modern Westernized culture.
I highly recommend that you stop putting your cultural notions into scripture and apply the original audience the scriptures were designed to address. You are only the adopted child. Not the natural born child. You need to assimilate to their culture....not force them to assimilate to yours.
 

Matthias

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Ummmm

That literally is the first line of the Shema.

Try again
The Jews would say that he read it correctly.

Here it is in Hebrew.

1743541383343.jpeg

Now please show us an English translation, using any Bible of your choosing, which renders it in English as you say it should read.

If you really want to knock it out of the park, use an English translation published by JPS.
 

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Matthias

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While we wait, the Shema is the creed of Judaism and the Messiah’s creed (which I’ve documented elsewhere using the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.) As I mentioned earlier, it is also popularly known as “The Jesus Creed” (see Scot McKnight).

1743542543277.jpeg

It is also my creed. I recite it daily, in both Hebrew and English. This is the creed of Jewish monotheism. It is not a trinitarian creed.
 

JohnDB

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Shema yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad. [barukh shem kevod malkhuto le'olam va'ed.] ve'ahavta et Adonai eloheykha bekhol-levavkha u'vekhol nafshekha u'vekhol me'odekha. ve'hayu hadevarim ha'eileh asher anokhi metzavekha haiyom al-levavekha.

Like I was saying. "Elohim" is a descriptive title. Not an adjective or a proper noun or any sort of noun. BTW....accent goes on the second or third syllables...never usually on the first. There are exceptions as in "Melach" (King)
 
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Matthias

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Shema yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad. [barukh shem kevod malkhuto le'olam va'ed.] ve'ahavta et Adonai eloheykha bekhol-levavkha u'vekhol nafshekha u'vekhol me'odekha. ve'hayu hadevarim ha'eileh asher anokhi metzavekha haiyom al-levavekha.

Great. Now please show us an English translation from any standard Bible translation of your choosing - which renders the passage in English as you say it does.

If you have time, would you also post for us the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim?
 

JohnDB

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Great. Now please show us an English translation from any standard Bible translation of your choosing - which renders the passage in English as you say it does.

If you have time, would you also post for us the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim?
What do you want?
I don't go to temple....

And I'm not Greek either. But I understand original people who wrote the scriptures. That's called anthropological studies.
And I'm what they refer to as an originalist when it comes to scriptures. Because I believe that a person (inspired by God) wrote letters and epistles to a particular audience with a particular set of thoughts and meanings to convey. (And they did)

As a person reading this stuff 2 000+ years later I need to step back in time to understand what was said, why it was said. And why it was said in the manner it was said in...as well as precisely what was intended for the audience to understand.
 

Matthias

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What do you want?
I don't go to temple....

And I'm not Greek either. But I understand original people who wrote the scriptures. That's called anthropological studies.
And I'm what they refer to as an originalist when it comes to scriptures. Because I believe that a person (inspired by God) wrote letters and epistles to a particular audience with a particular set of thoughts and meanings to convey. (And they did)

As a person reading this stuff 2 000+ years later I need to step back in time to understand what was said, why it was said. And why it was said in the manner it was said in...as well as precisely what was intended for the audience to understand.

You haven’t been able to prove your point and Hebrew, Greek, English and history prove mine.
 

JohnDB

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You haven’t been able to prove your point and Hebrew, Greek and English prove mine.
Eloh....Elohim
Cherub....cherubim
Seraph....seraphim
Melach....Melahim.
 

Matthias

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Eloh....Elohim
Cherub....cherubim
Seraph....seraphim
Melach....Melahim.

I’ll take Hebrew words which end with -im for a $1000.

All you’ve done to prove my point for me.

There is no such being as the Gods of Israel. Even trinitarianism teaches us that.
 

AngelicArcher

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Im a Christian Monotheist. Because I understand the grammar, baptize in the name ,singular, of the Father,the son and the Holy Ghost.

What is that name oh Israel? When your,our,God is one?
 

Matthias

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Im a Christian Monotheist. Because I understand the grammar, baptize in the name ,singular, of the Father,the son and the Holy Ghost.

What is that name oh Israel? When your,our,God is one?

Welcome to the forum.

Is a “Christian monotheist” an affirmer of the creeds of historical orthodox trinitarianism?

The personal / proper name of the God of Israel is the tetragrammaton.

He is the Messiah’s God.

What does your post have to do with educating people about the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity?
 

JohnDB

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I’ll take Hebrew words which end with -im for a $1000.

All you’ve done to prove my point for me.

There is no such being as the Gods of Israel. Even trinitarianism teaches us that.
"Gods is one". That's literally what the Shema says.

Why is that so difficult?
English is the worst receptor language for Hebrew imaginable.
 

JohnDB

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Im a Christian Monotheist. Because I understand the grammar, baptize in the name ,singular, of the Father,the son and the Holy Ghost.

What is that name oh Israel? When your,our,God is one?
Welcome...
You are fine. Matthias and I are just having a high brow discussion about the translation of the Hebrew.

He is having a difficult time understanding how in this case a hebrew verb "plural in majesty and sovereignty" word is always translated as a singular noun in English....but it's not a noun, name tag, or anything else he is trying to force it into being.

And is being quite stubborn about it too. ROFL.

It's ok....I still think the world of him. And I believe that he respects me as well. We are friends and nothing else should be inferred from our discussion.
 
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Matthias

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"Gods is one". That's literally what the Shema says.

Why is that so difficult?
English is the worst receptor language for Hebrew imaginable.

It isn’t a trinitarian creed.

It doesn’t teach us that “the God who is one” is “the Gods of Israel”, nor does trinitarianism teach us that “the God who is one” is “the Gods of Israel”.

You’re posting what many ignorant non-trinitarians think trinitarianism teaches. They need to be educated about what trinitarianism really teaches, and so do some trinitarians.
 

Matthias

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Welcome...
You are fine. Matthias and I are just having a high brow discussion about the translation of the Hebrew.

He is having a difficult time understanding how in this case a hebrew verb "plural in majesty and sovereignty" word is always translated as a singular noun in English....but it's not a noun, name tag, or anything else he is trying to force it into being.

And is being quite stubborn about it too. ROFL.

It's ok....I still think the world of him. And I believe that he respects me as well. We are friends and nothing else should be inferred from our discussion.

That’s not true.
 

Matthias

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Since no trinitarian member has come forward to do it, I’ll post it for us on their behalf -

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten,
begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made,
of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and
that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change - these the Catholic Church anathematizes.”


This is the state of Nicene orthodoxy in 325. We can’t stop here. The church didn’t. It was soon determined not to have gone far enough. (Which I will document shortly, using Schaff's History of the Christian Church). Some non-trinitarians were able to affirm the original Nicene Creed. (I wouldn’t have been able to, for those who might be wondering.)

I would like to see this taught to everyone. Who among the trinitarians will join me in advocating for it?

“Even among the adherents of Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.’”

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, “The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit”)


This is an important quote from the 4th century, and from one of the key figures in trinitarian history. This explains why the church moved on from the original Nicene Creed, revising it at Constantinople in 381.

Niceae 325 is important but Constantinople 381 eclipses it. It is from the latter date that trinitarian orthodoxy is established; and it is from the latter date that it was enforced - by the Roman Empire.

I’ll pause and invite one of the trinitarian members to post the revised Nicene Creed. If no one does, I will.

This is trinitarian education. It should be taught in every church.
 
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