The Coming Rapture

rebuilder 454 said:

There is only one place where Jesus comes in power and great glory. And that is revelation nineteen,

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Let me get this straight. You think that if Jesus showed up at the 6th seal with His angels to gather the elect for a harvest as he remained visible in the clouds that He would not be in power and glory?

rebuilder 454 said:

which is after the tribulation, or the wrath ( whatever you want to call the 7 yr gt) , when Jesus comes in power as a Warrior to destroy the Antichrist, And his army.
that is the only place. Jesus comes in power and great glory.

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Let's just use common sense and logic.

Why would Jesus show up immediately AFTER the tribulation with His angels if tribulation was wrath and He was coming to destroy the Antichrist.

When Jesus comes to earth with the armies of heaven do you think He comes after or before the Antichrist is destroyed?

Common sense about Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 should tell you that tribulation cannot be the wrath of God. Tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The wrath of God is His vengeance on an unbelieving world.

Immediately after Christians are killed for their faith and the great tribulation is cut short, Jesus shows up for the harvest that you see in Revelation 14. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. Believers are in heaven during the wrath of God. After the marriage supper Jesus returns to the earth with the armies of heaven to destroy the antichrist. Why would Jesus return immediately after the Antichrist was destroyed? Wouldn't He show up before the Antichrist was destroyed?

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. Common sense should tell you this.

Davidpt said:

No one is changed from a mortal body to an immortal body until the last trump.

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That is not correct. The dead Christ rise first. This does not happen at the last trump. It happens at the first trump. The last trump occurs at the end of the age which is the 6th seal.

If you are referring to the 7th trumpet blown by an angel that occurs during the 7th seal.

The Light said:

That is not correct. The dead Christ rise first. This does not happen at the last trump. It happens at the first trump. The last trump occurs at the end of the age which is the 6th seal.

If you are referring to the 7th trumpet blown by an angel that occurs during the 7th seal.

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Assuming you are right and I am wrong, how do you propose the dead in Christ can obtain immortal bodies when that is not even possible until the last trump sounds first? Not only does a pretrib rapture cause issues with the last trump in regards to them, so does the dead in Christ cause issues with the last trump since they have to rise before the rapture can take place, and that pretribbers have the rapture taking place before the last trump takes place. And that no one, other than Christ, can receive an immortal body until the last trump sounds. Which then is absurd, that when the dead in Christ rise first, they rise in mortal bodies rather than in immortal bodies. After all, they obviously can't rise in immortal bodies if one can't do that until the last trump sounds first, and that they rise before the last trump sounds first.

Davidpt said:

Assuming you are right and I am wrong, how do you propose the dead in Christ can obtain immortal bodies when that is not even possible until the last trump sounds first?

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It's possible because the 1st trump sounds.

Davidpt said:

Not only does a pretrib rapture cause issues with the last trump in regards to them, so does the dead in Christ cause issues with the last trump since they have to rise before the rapture can take place, and that pretribbers have the rapture taking place before the last trump takes place

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The rapture of the Church does take place before the last trump.

The last trump will occur at the end of the age, the 6th seal. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets a fall harvest feast.

Davidpt said:

And that no one, other than Christ, can receive an immortal body until the last trump sounds.

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The last trump sounds on the Feast of Trumpets, a fall harvest feast. The first trump falls on Pentecost a spring harvest feast. The dead in Christ will receive new bodies at the trump of God.

Davidpt said:

Which then is absurd, that when the dead in Christ rise first, they rise in mortal bodies rather than in immortal bodies.

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You are making a rule that everyone is changed at the last trump.

There is a difference between 1 Thes 4:16 which occurs at the trump of God and 1 Cor 15:51-52 which occurs at the last trump.

Davidpt said:

After all, they obviously can't rise in immortal bodies if one can't do that until the last trump sounds first, and that they rise before the last trump sounds first.

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There is more than one harvest feast. The fig tree has two harvests.

rebuilder 454 said:

Partially correct.

But if you read where the martyrs are kept, they are not in the main population.
They are under the altar.

so now these martyrs, the great multitude are in the general population of heaven, which points do a pre. Tribulation rapture.

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How does that point to a pre-trib rapture? I said they are the souls of the dead in Christ. Where they are located in heaven is irrelevant. You're not doing anything here to show that the great multitude has been raptured rather it being a reference to the souls of the dead in Christ.

The Light said:

That is not correct. The dead Christ rise first. This does not happen at the last trump. It happens at the first trump.

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You are 100% incorrect here. You don't think the following is referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ? It most certainly is.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This has the dead in Christ rising at the last trump. This isn't even debatable, yet here you are saying they are raised at the first trump instead. Unbelievable. Extreme nonsense.

Spiritual Israelite said:

You are 100% incorrect here. You don't think the following is referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ? Is most certainly is.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This has the dead in Christ rising at the last trump. This isn't even debatable, yet here you are saying they are raised at the first trump instead. Unbelievable. Extreme nonsense.

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Or maybe a little understanding is in order.

Who is raised at the last trump, which occurs at the end of the age, at the 6th seal.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is the people of Daniel that are raised immediately after the tribulation of those days. The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation, both the dead in Christ and the alive that remained.

The Light said:

Or maybe a little understanding is in order.

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In your case that is definitely true. To deny that the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last trumpet are not the dead in Christ being raised at the coming of Christ when we are caught up to meet Him is just plain ridiculous and can't be taken seriously even a tiny bit. You make a fool out of Paul and that's unacceptable.

The Light said:

Who is raised at the last trump, which occurs at the end of the age, at the 6th seal.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is the people of Daniel that are raised immediately after the tribulation of those days. The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation, both the dead in Christ and the alive that remained.

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Just because it references Daniel's people there does not mean that all other believers are not also resurrected at that time. That's an argument from silence, which is not a valid argument. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that some of the dead in Christ will be raised one time and some another time.

Look at the order of resurrections that Paul gives here and tell me how you can reconcile your beliefs with what Paul wrote here....

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul points out there that ALL in Christ will be resurrected. When? Paul made it clear. At Christ's second coming. So, he has them all being resurrected at the same time. Why don't you?

Spiritual Israelite said:

In your case that is definitely true. To deny that the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last trumpet are not the dead in Christ being raised at the coming of Christ when we are caught up to meet Him is just plain ridiculous and can't be taken seriously even a tiny bit. You make a fool out of Paul and that's unacceptable.

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I'm saying the dead in Christ are raised first. He returns for the alive that remained. This is the Church.

Those raised in the twinkling of an eye are mostly of the 12 tribes of Israel, both dead and alive.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Just because it references Daniel's people there does not mean that all other believers are not also resurrected at that time. That's an argument from silence, which is not a valid argument. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that some of the dead in Christ will be raised one time and some another time.

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Pentecost barley. Feast of New Wine wheat. Feast of Trumpets fruit.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Look at the order of resurrections that Paul gives here and tell me how you can reconcile your beliefs with what Paul wrote here....

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul points out there that ALL in Christ will be resurrected. When? Paul made it clear. At Christ's second coming. So, he has them all being resurrected at the same time. Why don't you?

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No. Paul points out every man in his order. First fruits and they that are Christs at His coming.

Christ comes for His Church.........they that are Christs at His coming before the tribulation.

144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes and they that are Christs at His coming immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal.

Everyone in his order.

Spiritual Israelite said:

I don't sound silly to those who know the truth. The truth is foolishness to those like you who don't rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding, but instead interpret scripture like the natural man (1 Cor 2:9-16).

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Wow and you think you can even read the souls and mind of men? Is there no end to your imagined talents?

Spiritual Israelite said:

I agree up until number 3, but this is where you start interjecting your own ideas into it. Nowhere did He say He will receive "us to Himself to be in the room in heaven He is preparing". Instead, it says he will receive us to Himself and we will then be where He is forever. He will receive us to Himself in the air, not heaven! It does not say He then takes us to heaven. So, stop twisting scripture to fit your doctrine! If we were to be taken to heaven, then He would just receive us there, not in the air. Your willingness to twist the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say is absolutely disgusting.

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Well you are making up that Jesus descends into the atmosphere, raptures up the church and the dead bodies while He is on the way down, and then a few minutes later we all land on earth with Him.

At least Scripture tells us that there is a great crowd of people in heaven for th e marriage of the Lamb. You call them souls, god called them people! He called the martyrs souls, so I think god knows how to identify disembodied souls from p

Spiritual Israelite said:

Which Jesus will bring to us. Nowhere does it say that after we meet Jesus we are then taken to heaven. You are making that up.

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So where is the church for the millennial kingdom and what Scriptures do you have to try to prove your hypothesis.

Spiritual Israelite said:

LOL. Why are you so ignorant? Are you somehow not aware that I'm an Amillennialist? Those two things happen at the same time, except you must mean at the end of Satan's little season instead of at the end of the millennial kingdom since Satan's little season follows that and heaven comes down after that.

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So you do not believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth. Do you believe when Jesus comes back He sets up eternity then?

Spiritual Israelite said:

Again, you make things up. Nowhere does scripture say that someone can't be ready for Jesus while on the earth. Your arguments are extremely weak and you have the gall to question the legitimacy of my view?

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And nowhere does the bible give us permission to drive a car so do you not drive? C'mon arguments from silence are non-arguments.

So show us where members of the church can receive their glorified bodies and be clothed in righteousness while still here on earth and Jesus is still in heaven.

Show us That church members on earth before Jesus arrives, have had all their works judged at the Bema seat in heaven and their uninspired works burned up.

Remember God says Jesus bride has made herself ready!

Revelation 19

King James Version

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19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

People means people- not pneuma(spirit) or psuche (soul) God knows the difference and is far more careful than us.

And the word multitude in verse 6 is also ochios! It always means people, never souls or spirits. Sssorry but that is what the bible says.

Rev. 19 is a throng of glorified people (the church)

Ronald Nolette said:

Wow and you think you can even read the souls and mind of men? Is there no end to your imagined talents?

Well you are making up that Jesus descends into the atmosphere, raptures up the church and the dead bodies while He is on the way down, and then a few minutes later we all land on earth with Him.

At least Scripture tells us that there is a great crowd of people in heaven for th e marriage of the Lamb. You call them souls, god called them people! He called the martyrs souls, so I think god knows how to identify disembodied souls from p

So where is the church for the millennial kingdom and what Scriptures do you have to try to prove your hypothesis.


So you do not believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth. Do you believe when Jesus comes back He sets up eternity then?

And nowhere does the bible give us permission to drive a car so do you not drive? C'mon arguments from silence are non-arguments.

So show us where members of the church can receive their glorified bodies and be clothed in righteousness while still here on earth and Jesus is still in heaven.

Show us That church members on earth before Jesus arrives, have had all their works judged at the Bema seat in heaven and their uninspired works burned up.

Remember God says Jesus bride has made herself ready!

Revelation 19​

​

King James Version​

​

​

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

People means people- not pneuma(spirit) or psuche (soul) God knows the difference and is far more careful than us.

And the word multitude in verse 6 is also ochios! It always means people, never souls or spirits. Sssorry but that is what the bible says.

Rev. 19 is a throng of glorified people (the church)

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Heaven is going to be revealed HERE, ON EARTH.

I tell you, many don't read all... their Bible like they are supposed to.

The Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters are all... future Millennium chapters taking place ON EARTH after Christ's future return, with the new Jerusalem and Millennial "sanctuary" ON EARTH.

On the day of Christ's return, the Heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all... nations and peoples, ON EARTH. This is why on the day of Christ's coming, they will see Him coming in the clouds with great glory, and the nations will mourn when they see Him (Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7).

Per Ezekiel 47, that Millennial "sanctuary" will have God's River of the Waters of Life flowing out from under it to feed other waters upon the earth, healing them. And on either side of that River will be the many trees bearing their fruits that will never be consumed, with the leaves as medicine. This all begins in the day of Christ's future return with His "thousand years" reign over the nations of that time. It will still not yet be God's future new heavens and a new earth, because the events of Christ's reign over the wicked of Rev.20 must be fulfilled first (also see 1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

Ezekiel 47 reveals WHERE Christ's reign and that Millennial "sanctuary" will be located. It mentions specific Biblical areas in the holy land, ON EARTH. Even in John 14 with Lord Jesus revealing that in His Father's "house" there are many "mansions" (abodes), He was pointing to the future Millennial "sanctuary" of Ezekiel 40-47.

Thus men's doctrines that claim Christ's Church will be raptured to Heaven and the marriage supper takes place in Heaven OFF THE EARTH is nothing but a CROCK of BULL.

Davy said:

Heaven is going to be revealed HERE, ON EARTH.

I tell you, many don't read all... their Bible like they are supposed to.

The Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters are all... future Millennium chapters taking place ON EARTH after Christ's future return, with the new Jerusalem and Millennial "sanctuary" ON EARTH.

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But before this there is a rapture to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. He goes to prepare a place for us in His Fathers house.

Davy said:

On the day of Christ's return, the Heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all... nations and peoples, ON EARTH. This is why on the day of Christ's coming, they will see Him coming in the clouds with great glory, and the nations will mourn when they see Him (Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7).

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The nations will mourn because they know that the day of His wrath is at hand. At the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation, all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The second rapture will occur and then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. All believers are raptured to heaven.

Davy said:

Thus men's doctrines that claim Christ's Church will be raptured to Heaven and the marriage supper takes place in Heaven OFF THE EARTH is nothing but a CROCK of BULL.

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The stars of heaven fall AFTER the tribulation. Therefore, your tired old theory that the 6th seal and the seventh trumpet and vial are the same event are proven to be a crock.

Your beliefs are proven by the Word of God to be in error. Face it. Quit piling judgement upon yourself because you know you are in error, and you continue to spew falsehood.

Spiritual Israelite said:

How does that point to a pre-trib rapture? I said they are the souls of the dead in Christ. Where they are located in heaven is irrelevant. You're not doing anything here to show that the great multitude has been raptured rather it being a reference to the souls of the dead in Christ.

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Because the innumerable number came out of the great tribulation, and were martyred.
The Martyrs were no longer kept under the altar.
Their martyrs numbers are fulfilled.
They are in the general population.


(Pretrib rapture.)
Then...Those that were left behind, are martyred, exactly as God's word says.
The innumerable number authenticated that there is nobody left for some assumed postrib rapture.
Postrib rapture THEORY , as I have pointed out, is DOA.

The Light said:

But before this there is a rapture to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. He goes to prepare a place for us in His Fathers house.

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Nope! That is a false assumption by men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Zechariah 14 with Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His return, bringing ALL His saints with Him there, definitely is NOT a rapture to Heaven! Even the Acts 1 Scripture when Jesus ascended to Heaven reveals His return there to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

And even Rev.20 reveals the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" after Christ's future return will be ON THIS EARTH.


But go ahead, believe in the false bible which those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory try to create. More room for us who will remain Faithful waiting on Lord Jesus Christ to come after the tribulation, and take us to Jerusalem ON EARTH to reign with Him there over the "nations", and take part in His future supper that will happen on earth.

Davy said:

Nope! That is a false assumption by men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Zechariah 14 with Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His return, bringing ALL His saints with Him there, definitely is NOT a rapture to Heaven! Even the Acts 1 Scripture when Jesus ascended to Heaven reveals His return there to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

And even Rev.20 reveals the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" after Christ's future return will be ON THIS EARTH.


But go ahead, believe in the false bible which those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory try to create. More room for us who will remain Faithful waiting on Lord Jesus Christ to come after the tribulation, and take us to Jerusalem ON EARTH to reign with Him there over the "nations", and take part in His future supper that will happen on earth.

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Nope.
Rev 19.( what you omitted)
Read it and rewrite it.
Only then does a postrib rapture fit.

Davy said:

Nope! That is a false assumption by men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Zechariah 14 with Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His return, bringing ALL His saints with Him there, definitely is NOT a rapture to Heaven! Even the Acts 1 Scripture when Jesus ascended to Heaven reveals His return there to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

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Who said Zechariah 14 is a rapture to heaven? This event occurs AFTER the armies of heaven return for Armageddon which is AFTER the marriage supper. See Revelation 19

Davy said:

And even Rev.20 reveals the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" after Christ's future return will be ON THIS EARTH.

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EXACTLY. Believers are in heaven during the one year wrath of God. They are at the marriage supper as we are not appointed to wrath. Wrath is the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. Many of you think that the wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence in heaven because that is what you claim that the 7th seal is. You ignore the trumpets and vials. We will be back on this earth in the future.

Davy said:

But go ahead, believe in the false bible which those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory try to create. More room for us who will remain Faithful waiting on Lord Jesus Christ to come after the tribulation, and take us to Jerusalem ON EARTH to reign with Him there over the "nations", and take part in His future supper that will happen on earth.

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Why do you lie to yourself Davy. You know that you are wrong. The stars of heaven fall AFTER the tribulation, so your claims are in error.........AND YOU KNOW IT. Study to show thyself approved.

You roll on as if nothing has happened. Fact is, you know in your heart that your claims are in error.

rebuilder 454 said:

Nope.
Rev 19.( what you omitted)
Read it and rewrite it.
Only then does a postrib rapture fit.

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I have not omitted Rev.19. You simply fail to either 'remember', or fail to read a bit further in Revelation...

Rev 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

Now just where... do you say that marriage supper is held that will happen after Christ's future gathering of His Church? Why is that "camp of the saints" ON EARTH do ya think? But you'll probably just make up some poor excuse trying to claim that ain't about Christ's Church on earth during His future "thousand years" reign with His elect saints.



Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV


Did you forget to read that Zechariah 14 Scripture that was written long ago in The Old Testament? That Chapter is about Christ's future return, so it goes WITH Christ's Book of Revelation and all future prophecy about Christ's future return and reign with His elect.

Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
KJV

I guess you also failed to read your Old Testament Books too, especially that above Ezekiel Scripture which is still yet future for Christ's coming "thousand years" reign, ON EARTH. That future "sanctuary" will be ON EARTH, not up in the clouds. And those "Zadok" (means The Just) represent Christ's elect saints in that future time. Only those Zadok... will be allowed to approach Jesus at His table and serve Him. There's where the marriage supper with Christ will be with His faithful elect, ON EARTH.

That "sanctuary" is called The Father's "house" in those Ezekiel 40-47 chapters. Recall John 14 where Jesus mention in His Father's "house" there are "many mansions"? There it is, with that future Millennial "sanctuary", The Father's "house" where the chambers of Christ's priests will be per the Ezekiel 40 thru 46 chapters.

Sorry you have missed all that in the Book of Ezekiel, which God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to the ten tribe "house of Israel", which means Christ's Church from which the founders of the early western Christian Church was mainly by those of the lost ten tribes Israel that migrated into Asia Minor and Europe.

rebuilder 454 said:

Nope.
Rev 19.( what you omitted)
Read it and rewrite it.
Only then does a postrib rapture fit.

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Also, you apparently have forgotten to read 1 Corinthians 15 by Apostle Paul about the day of Christ's future return on the "last trump" when ALL still alive on earth shall be 'changed' to their spirit bodies, and thus the Heavenly dimension is opened up right HERE on earth. How else do you think the unsaved nations will actually see... Christ coming and will be angry per Matthew 24:29-31?

And didn't you ever read about Apostle Philip after he had witnessed The Gospel to the Ethiopian?

Acts 8:37-40
37 And Philip said, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV

Did you not know that "caught away" phrase is the same Greek harpazo word used by Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4:17 about the rapture?

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

What's the difference between those two examples of harpazo? One example is about Philip being raptured while still in his flesh body to another location on earth. The other example of harpazo is being gathered to Christ once our flesh bodies are cast off, as Jesus descends to earth from Heaven to take us to Jerusalem on earth, to the Mount of Olives.

Davy said:

Also, you apparently have forgotten to read 1 Corinthians 15 by Apostle Paul about the day of Christ's future return on the "last trump" when ALL still alive on earth shall be 'changed' to their spirit bodies, and thus the Heavenly dimension is opened up right HERE on earth. How else do you think the unsaved nations will actually see... Christ coming and will be angry per Matthew 24:29-31?

And didn't you ever read about Apostle Philip after he had witnessed The Gospel to the Ethiopian?

Acts 8:37-40
37 And Philip said, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV

Did you not know that "caught away" phrase is the same Greek harpazo word used by Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4:17 about the rapture?

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

What's the difference between those two examples of harpazo? One example is about Philip being raptured while still in his flesh body to another location on earth. The other example of harpazo is being gathered to Christ once our flesh bodies are cast off, as Jesus descends to earth from Heaven to take us to Jerusalem on earth, to the Mount of Olives.

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You skipped Rev 19 again?
Huh.
Oh wait...nevermind.
You can not debate verses.
Just keep posting as if the pretrib verses are not there.

Davy said:

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Satan as the coming Antichrist comes on 666. Satan also has the image of a 'man', as all... angels do, that image having originated from GOD's Own Image Likeness of Man. So don't allow fleshy Jewish traditions that falsely claim the word 'man' always means flesh to cloud your thinking by The Spirit.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

That event of the stars of heaven falling to earth as "untimely figs" is about the time of Rev.12:7 forward when Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven by that war in heaven, and they come down to earth in OUR earthly dimension for the time of "great tribulation".

6th Trumpet:
Rev 9:11-15
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

Verse 11 mentions about Satan as that king and angel of the bottomless pit. He is who will lead that locust army loosed at the end for the time of "great tribulation" on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Period.

Revelation 9:13 all the way to Revelation 11:13 represents that 6th TRUMPET - 2nd WOE PERIOD. (The Revelation 10 Chapter is parenthetical, to let us know that when the 7th TRUMPET blows, all Bible prophecy about this present world will be OVER.)

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

That above takes place during the 6TH TRUMPET - 2ND WOE TIMING. That "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" IS ABOUT SATAN HIMSELF at Jerusalem who will kill God's "two witnesses" there at the very end of this world.

6th VIAL:
Rev 16:12-14
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

That above is still 6th TRUMPET - 2ND WOE timing for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the END. That "dragon" label we were shown in Rev.12:9 is another name for Satan himself. That will be the time when he comes as the final Antichrist/false-Messiah to work the great signs, wonders, and miracles in Jerusalem that Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul warned the Church about (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2).

ALL... of those above events are set to occur just PRIOR to Christ's future coming to gather His Church and end... that time of "great tribulation".

That is what that 666 number at the end of Revelation 13 actually means. It is a direct reference to the TIME of Satan's coming at the end of this world to play GOD in Jerusalem.

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You really need to address the deception you are in.
It is a FACT the AC kills all refusing the mark.
So there is NOBODY that belongs to Jesus "going through the GT"

Maybe just face the bible honestly???
Stop obsessing over what others may or may not have wrong since you can not reconcile ANY pretrib rapture verses??????