Babylon

Jay Ross said:

I did not say that you did not read the scripture and go by them. I have learned that most commentators cannot be believed carte blanche as they have not identified for themselves the entity types involved in the scriptures. For example the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are in fact wicked rebelling heavenly hosts in league with Satan who are able to influence people, people groups, kingdoms, nation and empires to exhibit their respective dominate characteristic.

We need to look further than just at the human entities that have and are manifesting the respective beats.

Jer 50:39 speaks of the land of Babylon being devasted and desolated if properly translated.

There is a need to question all of the previous commentator and the translations that we all rely on for our understanding of God Prophetic words.

The argument that you have presented does not hold up at all.

Shalom

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Your arguments are contradictory and that’s why they don’t hold water. You see the beasts in Daniel 7 as “heavenly hosts,” but Daniel sees them rising from the sea, which is not heaven in any sense. In fact, the imagery is cryptic of the wicked ordained powers on earth,

Isaiah 57
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

Your ideas are unsustainable through the scriptures as well as history and since God prophecies about human events, I trust the Reformers in their interpretation the beasts in Daniel are human powers, specifically Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, from which the papacy rises.

Point is that you want to spiritualize the beasts in Daniel but insist Babylon in Jeremiah 50 must be taken literally; that’s a huge contradiction.

Like I said, Walvoord made a valid point, the prophecy about Babylon can’t be taken literally, when history is taken into account. It isn’t about modern-day Iraq; it’s about an entity that fornicates with the kings of the earth and enriches the merchants of the earth by her luxurious living. Since the merchants of the earth rose to their modern-day prominence in the last two hundred years, we must look to the past two hundred years to identify mystery Babylon in agreement with the scriptures. Futurism fails on that account.

Spiritual Israelite said:

So, you're just interested in acting like a clown then? You don't accept how Jesus applied Zechariah 13:7 to the disciples? You are the one ignorant of the OT because you don't allow the NT to explain it to you.

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I accept Christ's interpretation, but the context can't be ignored if you don't want to be a clown. The context is about the refinement of Israel by fire.

Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

The refinement of Israel is accomplished by scattering or sowing them in the earth, which is what Christ came to accomplish.

Luke 24
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Who are you trying to kid here? I said Acts 2:29-36, not Acts 2:30 and Acts 2:34-35. Why did you skip verse 31 where Peter says that the prophecy that he referenced in verse 30 in relation God promising David that one of his (David's) descendants would sit on his (David's) throne was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ? Why are you being so dishonest here instead of looking at the whole passage and exegeting the whole passage? You think I can't see through that? Please address the whole passage and then we can come back to discussing the comments you made here. That's only fair.

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I did address the issue, even if you don't get it. God did raise Christ to sit on David's throne. And if you believe Christ, you will know God raises him to sit on David's throne when he returns (Matthew 25:31).

covenantee said:

You're too irrational to recognize your irrationality.

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You're so silly.

Jay Ross said:

You have taken the verse Isaiah 57:20, and given it a meaning which is out of context with the rest of the verses where it is found.

It is my view that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are heavenly hosts and are the four winds of heaven which cause the sea to manifest the respective characteristic of each of the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 7:2-3: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven[1] were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other."​

You keep pushing Walvoord, who was a Pre-Tribber, as being an expert, however I would disagree with his perspective because of his pre-trib views.

I would suggest to you that the Reformation Fathers wanted to create a particular understanding that demonised the RCC as being the Antichrist and they frame their theological perspective to justify themselves in this regard.

Even in my youth I held to the traditional reformation view, but after years of study of the scriptures, my understanding shifted from to what I understand today that the beasts are actually heavenly hosts and Daniel 7:11-12 supports this view as does Isaiah 24:21-22 which explains why the judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth end up in the Bottomless pit together with Satan.

You used a false argument when you belittled me in your post.

Babylon in Jeremiah 50 is described as a place which various people groups have held dominion over and the Roman Empire has never held dominion over any portion of the Land of Babylon. On this point the Reformation Fathers changed their theology by inferring that the "manifested beasts" had dominion over the Land of Canaan and Israel. So a tradition was established to hold the RCC at arms length so that their influence could be diminished over the "collective churches" that were to flourish after the Reformation. The Historical evidence confirms this point of view.

Sadly, Walvoord holds to this false understanding generated by the Reformation Fathers which has sealed God's End Time Prophetic words from our understanding. Within twenty years, there is going to be a radical shift in the theological understanding with respect to the true entities of the Beasts.

Shalom

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[1] The “four winds of heaven” are best understood to be four wicked fallen heavenly host that have gained an influence over the earth, in that, their dominate characteristic are manifested within the sea of humanity and these manifestations are described as beasts. The “four winds of heaven” are mentioned in Ezekiel 34:25, Daniel 7:2, 8:8 and 11:4, and Zechariah 6:5.

Paul also mentions them in Ephesians 6:12: - 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

NKJV​

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Daniel said the head of the image was the ancient kingdom of Babylon. And the succeeding parts were kingdoms to arise after. Furthermore, he identified the beasts in chapter 7 as kingdoms and actually revealed the ram and the goat in chapter 8 as the kings of Media and Persia and the king of Grecia, which would be Alexander.

I don’t buy your excesses in spiritualization. The Reformers were led by God when they exposed the papacy as the little horn. No thanks, I’m not interested in your excesses in spiritualization.

Spiritual Israelite said:

The context is about what Christ said it's about, so how can you say you accept His interpretation when you say it's about something different than what He said it's about? He related it directly to the disciples fleeing in fear when He was taken to be crucified. You say you accept that, but then you try to say it's about something else. So, you don't really accept His interpretation.

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You’re so transparent. It’s not like the sheep weren’t scattered, all over the world, right? It’s obvious you’re trying to side-step the overwhelming evidence the OT prophesied the sheep were going to scattered or sown in the earth, to coin another metaphor used by the prophets. Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-38; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7 all vindicate the kingdom of God represents the harvest season, ordained in the Hebraic festivals that closes with the gathering of the wheat into the barn, the metaphor Christ used in the parables. Jeremiah agrees,

Jeremiah 23:
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It's you that can’t accept that Christ said he would return at the gathering to sit on his throne in Matthew 25:31, just like Jeremiah. Your world is being rocked by the word of God to find you’ve been listening to fables (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Spiritual Israelite said:

So, you acknowledge that God already raised Christ to sit on David's throne, as it says in Acts 2:29-31? Why would you then try to say God does that when He returns when it's already been done? You don't make any sense.

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You’re only proving you don’t know how to read. I said God raises him to sit on David's throne when he returns, which agrees with Christ in Matthew 25:31.

Jay Ross said:

First off, it is poor practice to mix the people groups that have had dominion over the land of Babylon as indicated in the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2’s list of the five people groups that will have dominion over the land of Babylon with the people groups that manifest the dominate characteristic of the four beasts of Daniel 7.

Now my understanding of those people groups that are a segment of the statue prophecy are: -

1. The Chaldeans,
2. The Medes and the Persians
3. The Grecian Empire ending with the Seleucid Empire which had dominion of the land of Babylon before they forcibly removed the inhabitants of the land of Babylon around the year 120 BC, about 60 years before the Roman Empire began to dominate the nation around the Mediterranean Sea and beyond.
4. Iraq, which was established in 1926 by Britian and France.
5. The USA and the coalition of nation that invaded Iraq/the land of Babylon, in 2003.

Now, Jeremiah 50-51 tells us what will happen to the Land of Babylon during the time that Israel is seeking God.

Jeremiah 50:39-40: -​

​

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,​

And the ostriches shall dwell in it.​

Nor shall it be inhabited for a long period of time beyond our comprehension,​

It shall not be dwelt in for two ages.​

40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah​

And their neighbours," says the Lord,​

"So, no one shall reside there,​

Nor son of man dwell in it. ​

This happened around 120 BC, about 60 years before the Roman Empire began to have dominance over the nation that live adjacent to the Mediterranean Sea such that the Roman Empire cannot be considered to have any domination over the Land of Babylon.

Now, you can say that I am wrong but your arguments in your rebuttals so far do not stack up as far as I am concerned.



Goodbye.

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Right off, the Chaldeans were conquered by the Assyrians before Nebuchadnezzar and his father restored the kingdom and the former became the head of the image in Daniel 2, which destroys your rendition of the segments.

And Walvoord was right, “The city of Babylon continued to flourish after the Medes conquered it, and though its glory dwindled, especially after the control of the Medes and Persians ended in 323 b.c., the city continued in some form or substance until a.d. 1000 and did not experience a sudden termination such as is anticipated in this prophecy.” The historical evidence establishes the prophecy must have a figurative interpretation, as does mystery Babylon.

Farewell

Spiritual Israelite said:

That's a good thing. You don't have to wonder what I'm thinking. And I'm thinking that you don't accept the interpretation of Zechariah 13:7 that Jesus Himself gave, which is not very wise.


You don't know how to talk coherently. You said "I did address the issue, even if you don't get it. God did raise Christ to sit on David's throne.". So, now you're saying God didn't raise Christ to sit on David's throne?

The following says that God raised Christ to sit on David's throne by way of Christ's resurrection. No wonder you didn't bother addressing verse 31 here. You know it doesn't support your view.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Follow what Peter is saying here. He referenced the prophecy about God promising David that he would RAISE a descendant, Christ, to sit on his (David's) throne and it then says what the prophecy was about in relation to Christ being RAISED UP on his throne was the RAISING UP of Christ from the dead. So, you need to accept what Peter taught about this instead of believing what you want to believe.

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By transparent I meant how you side-step the Old and NT prophecies that Christ came to scatter the sheep and when they are gathered again it’s to reign with Christ in his kingdom.

Your itching ears have Peter say what you want to hear, not what Peter actually meant. Christ told Peter and his brothers that when he returned, he would sit on his throne in Matthew 25:31. That’s why Peter and his brothers asked Christ would he “restore again the kingdom to Israel” at that time, but they were told they weren’t to know the time (Acts 1:6-7). The apostles and all the prophets understood the restoration of the kingdom of Israel is in Israel, on earth, not in heaven. You know, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, thing you don’t understand. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world but of the age to come, at the gathering in Jerusalem. The apostles knew nothing about the doctrine of amill that developed when the Roman Emperors took control of the Church and defiled it. As I said, the only way to interpret Acts 2:30 is that God raised Christ to return and sit on his throne on earth, where David’s throne will reside again soon.

Spiritual Israelite said:

You sidestep how the Great God of the Universe Jesus Christ Himself interpreted and explained the meaning of the prophecy. That is foolish. You should trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about when applying the prophecy to the scattering of the disciples in fear when He was taken to be crucified.

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You should know Christ was talking about his return to sit on his throne in Matthew 25:31 and reward the overcomers of this age with rule, power and authority in his kingdom according to Matthew 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, 25:21, 23; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12, which exposes amill as fuel fit for the fire (1 Corinthians 3:13). To believe otherwise is foolish.

As for Zechariah 13:7, amills are notorious for changing the meaning of the scriptures so it’s hypocritical to accuse someone else of that. It’s transparent you’re just trying to avoid the OT passages that ordained the scattering of the sheep at Christ’s first advent, which vindicates the scattering has more than one meaning. “Woe be unto the pastors” for “scattering the flock,” cries Christ in Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34. Jeremiah continues, in the end, Christ gathers the sheep and dwells secured with the flock as their king, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is at the harvest of the good seed into the barn in Christ’s parable,

Matthew 13
40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ESV

As I said, Christ’s return and the final judgment were foreshadowed in the Hebraic Autumnal Festivals. The Spring Festivals ordained Christ’s first advent, and the Autumnal the second; the “sowing and planting” commence with the first advent (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-38; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). The scriptures affirm Christ rewards the overcomers with rule, power, and authority during TABERLANCLES when he returns, which CERTANLY IS NOT THE WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE AND PROVES WE DO NOT ENTER THE ETERNAL STATE AT HIS RETURN!

Spiritual Israelite said:

Jesus's answer includes verse 8 in Acts 1. He indicated there what kind of kingdom it is. It's spiritual and began to grow on the day of Pentecost. It did not come with observation (isn't physical) and is not of this world (it's heavenly in nature instead of worldly). Your understanding of the kingdom is terribly flawed.

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Acts 1:8 substantiates the scattering of the sheep; the remnant of Israel is given power to go to the ends of the earth to spread the gospel. Verse 8 actually substantiates Premillennialism in its parallelism with passages like Jeremiah 23. “Woe be unto the pastors” for “scattering the flock,” cries Christ in Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34. Jeremiah continues, in the end, Christ gathers the sheep and dwells secured with the flock as their king, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is at the harvest of the good seed into the barn in Christ’s parable,

Matthew 13
40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ESV

Spiritual Israelite said:

There is no kingdom of Israel, there is the kingdom of God. We're in the kingdom of God now. Do you not understand that?

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom will come in its fullness when Jesus returns in terms of it no longer sharing space with wickedness. It will be eternal in the new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21:4).

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Galatians 6:15-16 makes a mockery of your notion there is no kingdom of Israel. The Church and Israel are appositives for the people of God; Israel is just another name for the Church, the people of God. God promises to restore Israel in the OT and is the object of Acts 1:6-7. The restoration is at the gathering according to Old and NT.

Spiritual Israelite said:

You are butchering scripture here. That is not what it means for Christ's kingdom to not be of this world. What that means is that it's not a wordly or earthly kingdom. Instead, it's spiritual and heavenly and we're in it now. Do you deny that you're in Christ's kingdom now? Is He not your King now?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

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You simply overlook the Christ’s kingdom is on EARTH (Matthew 5:5, 25:31; Revelation 5:9-10, 20:6)! What Christ means is brought to light in the prayer he gave us,

Matthew 6
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

When Christ says his kingdom is not OF this world, he means it’s OF heaven but on earth in the AGE TO COME.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Jesus said that His followers are not of this world (John 15:19, John 17:14). Does that mean we are of the age to come and not of this time? Of course not. That's not what not being of this world means.

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Does this spiritual kingdom of the saints have power over this world today? Of course not; it has rule, power and authority in the AGE TO COME (Matthew 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, 25:21, 23; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12).

Spiritual Israelite said:

Of course they did and they taught it.

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It’s foolish to hold the apostles taught amill, insofar as their immediate successors taught chiliasm for almost three-hundred years before the amills supplanted them in the Roman Church. Papias (80-163) was as chiliast, who Irenaeus held was a pupil of Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John. Amill can offer little support about any antiquity.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Is Acts 2:31, which describes how Acts 2:30 is fulfilled, not in your Bible? You are nothing but a cherry picker. You cherry pick verses, twist them to fit your doctrine, and ignore the rest.

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As I said, David is the example. He was anointed by Samuel as king long before he ruled. Furthermore, Christ declared he would sit on his throne upon his return (Matthew 25:31), which proves you and amill are the cherry pickers.

covenantee said:

David's throne was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar well over two thousand years ago.

How will Christ sit on it?

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It’s a place, on earth, occupying the space of the Jerusalem of God in the age to come.