Exploring Anti-trinitarian Logic

Aunty Jane said:

There is no contradiction.

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You contradicted yourself by saying that spirits are both immortal and not immortal:

Aunty Jane said:

[...] spirits are not immortal [...]

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Aunty Jane said:

“God is a spirit” [...] he is immortal [...]

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Spirits are either immortal or they are not immortal.

Aunty Jane said:

Angels are not immortal [...]

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False, because in Heb. 1:14 we read, "Aren’t they [angels] all serving spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"

πνεῦμα​

Forms of the word
Dictionary: πνεῦμα, -ματος, τό
Greek transliteration: pneuma
Simplified transliteration: pneuma

Numbers
Strong's number: 4151
GK Number: 4460

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 379
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-3c(4)

Gloss: wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance; by extension: spirit, heart, mind, the immaterial part of the inner person that can respond to God; spirit being: (evil) spirit, ghost, God the Holy Spirit

Definition: wind, air in motion, Jn. 3:8; breath, 2 Thess. 2:8; the substance spirit, Jn. 3:6; a spirit, spiritual being, Jn. 4:24; Acts 23:8, 9; Heb. 1:14; a bodiless spirit, specter, Lk. 24:37; a foul spirit, δαιμόνιον, Mt. 8:16; Lk. 10:20; spirit, as a vital principle, Jn. 6:63; 1 Cor. 15:45; the human spirit, the soul, Mt. 26:41; 27:50; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 7:34; Jas. 2:26; the spirit as the seat of thought and feeling, the mind, Mk. 8:12; Acts 19:21; spirit, mental frame, 1 Cor. 4:21; 1 Pet. 3:4; a characteristic spirit, an influential principle, Lk. 9:55; 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:7; a pervading influence, Rom. 11:8; spirit, frame of mind, as distinguished from outward circumstances and action, Mt. 5:3; spirit as distinguished from outward show and form. Jn. 4:23; spirit, a divinely bestowed spiritual frame, characteristic of true believers, Rom. 8:4; Jude 19; spirit, latent spiritual import, spiritual significance, as distinguished from the mere letter, Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6, 17; spirit, as a term for a process superior to a merely natural or carnal course of things, by the operation of the Divine Spirit, Rom. 8:4; Gal. 4:29; a spiritual dispensation, or a sealing energy of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; the Holy Spirit, Mt. 3:16; 12:31; Jn. 1:32, 33; a gift of the Holy Spirit, Jn. 7:39; Acts 19:2; 1 Cor. 14:12; an operation or influence of the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3; a spiritual influence, an inspiration, Mt. 22:43; Lk. 2:27; Eph. 1:17; a professedly divine communication, or, a professed possessor of a spiritual communication, 1 Cor. 12:10; 2 Thess. 2:2; 1 Jn. 4:1, 2, 3

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And, to quote Jesus, "[...] a spirit (πνεῦμα) doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see that I have" (Lk. 24:39), which means that spirits, e.g., angels, etc., are incorporeal beings, and thus not subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which makes them immortal ("exempt from physical death and decay"). [Note: While all spirits are immortal, not all spirits are eternal. The only immortal Spirit Who is eternal is God, eternal as in "without beginning or end".]

Aunty Jane said:

“God is a spirit” because the Bible says so, but it also says he is immortal….

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God is not only an eternal and immortal Spirit, but He is also one and triune: the Thought (the Father), the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each working differently, and yet not working in contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: Love, equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

The second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Word, left Heaven and became a human, a corporeal being, and thus subject to the limits of physical death, which made Him mortal, because part of His Mission was to physically die for humankind, as He couldn't have accomplished that as a Spirit (Jn. 1:14). He shed real blood through the wounds of a real flesh as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.

God, Who, as Man, was and is a visible King and, as God, is an invisible King because He is a most pure Spirit, to whom faith is tributed out of pure faith because human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became a human and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them.

Aunty Jane said:

And since there are no immortal souls, no humans went to heaven before Jesus.

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Aunty Jane said:

…..”everlasting life” is not “immortality”.

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Firstly, in Gen. 1:26, God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]". In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is a soul (spirit): God's image and likeness. This wonderful thing which is a soul (spirit), a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like God Who created it.

Secondly, souls (spirits) are immortal because, as I've explained, it's not subject to the limits of physical death, but it can either be subject to spiritual death—eternal separation from God in Hell—or eternal life with God in Heaven.

Thirdly, prior to Jesus reopening Heaven, upon the physical death of a human, if their soul (spirit) was just, it went to Limbo to await entry into Heaven.

Aunty Jane said:

If you can imagine for one moment the magnitude of a Being who can create a Universe that stretches beyond our limited ability to comprehend its size and scope, not to mention the laws that operate out there…..and which God and his son participated in its creation for their own pleasure as a project they shared together, whilst all the other spirit sons looked on with great interest.

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And, you believe that Jesus is a lesser pure, divine Spirit than God and that He became human. So, I'm asking, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?" All that is required is an "Yes, I believe that God is capable of becoming human" or "No, I believe that God is not capable of becoming human". Which do you believe? Please answer with either of those statements, so that I can progress that part of our discussion further, and answer your questions. Or, if you don't want to answer it, explain why. Thank you.

Aunty Jane said:

….I’m done. So many questions asked and no answers forthcoming….

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Take accountability for the following choices that you made to cause that. I asked you a certain question, and you repeatedly refused to answer it without explaining why, and then you started asking me questions. So, I told you to please answer my question first, so that I can progress that part of our discussion further, and answer your questions, but you still refused to.

Aunty Jane said:

I am a student and teacher of God’s word and have been for over 50 years…..I live to answer questions…..

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You claim to live to answer questions...except, for example, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?"

Aunty Jane said:

It is a classic courtroom trick to ask “yes or no” questions without detail so that the response can be twisted to indicate something that was never said.

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I asked, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?". What detail is allegedly lacking in that question, and with the absence of this detail, what could the answer be twisted to indicate that was never said?

Aunty Jane said:

[...] because the answers were not just “yes or no“, you failed to understand why my response was not exactly what you asked for.

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The answer you claim to have given is that you believe Jesus isn't God, coupled with an explanation for why. However, I didn't ask if you believe that Jesus is God, but rather I asked, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?", and you haven't answered. All that is required for an answer is "Yes, I believe that God is capable of becoming human" or "No, I believe that God is incapable of becoming human", but if you follow up with an explanation for why as well, I'd appreciate that.

Aunty Jane said:

The details were in my response [...]

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That's not what you said. You said, "It is a classic courtroom trick to ask “yes or no” questions without detail so that the response can be twisted to indicate something that was never said." You're saying that my question—"Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?"—allegedly lacks a detail. Again, what detail is allegedly lacking in my question? And, with the absence of this detail, what could the answer be twisted to indicate that was never said?

Aunty Jane said:

[...] because the answers were not just “yes or no“, you failed to understand why my response was not exactly what you asked for.

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The answer you claim to have given is that you believe Jesus isn't God, coupled with an explanation for why. However, I didn't ask if you believe that Jesus is God.

Aunty Jane said:

You have not answered a single question I have put to you…..

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I asked you, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?", and you never answered it, but you want me to answer your questions? That's not how a fair discussion works. Now, I repeatedly told you that I would answer your questions after you answered my aforementioned question, but you repeatedly refused. So, whose fault is it that your questions are left unanswered? Yours. Who can do something about it? You, by first answering the following question: "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?". All that is required for an answer is "Yes, I believe that God is capable of becoming human" or "No, I believe that God is incapable of becoming human", but if you follow up with an explanation for why as well, I'd appreciate that.

Aunty Jane said:

You have not answered a single question I have put to you…..

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I repeatedly told you that I would answer any your questions after you first answer my question below:

LuxMundi said:

And, you believe that Jesus is a lesser pure, divine Spirit than God and that He became human. So, I'm asking, "Do you believe that God, the most pure, divine Spirit, is capable of becoming human?"

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Below is your non-answer to my question above:

Aunty Jane said:

Is God capable of becoming a serpent or a rabbit? Does he have limits? No he does not….but as an immortal, HE CANNOT DIE….

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That's a non-answer because I didn't ask if you believe that God is capable of undergoing physical death as an immortal Spirit, and He's not, for the following reason: Spirits are incorporeal beings, and thus not subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which makes them immortal ("exempt from physical death and decay") [Note: While all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God]. Corporeal beings are subject to the limits of physical death and decay, and are thus mortal.

What I actually asked is if you believe that God, an incorporeal and immortal Spirit, is capable of becoming human, or, in other words, becoming a corporeal and mortal being. All that is required for an answer is "Yes, I believe that God is capable of becoming human" or "No, I believe that God is incapable of becoming human", but if you would like to follow up with an explanation for why He is or isn't as well, I'd appreciate that.

So, I've shown why you still need to answer the question, and I hope that you decide to, so that our discussion can progress.

TheHC said:

[...] Jehovah [...] can’t die.

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That depends. God can't die (undergo physical death) as a Spirit, because spirits are incorporeal beings, and thus are not subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which makes them immortal. However, God can die (undergo physical death) as a human, because humans are corporeal beings, and thus are subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which makes them mortal. And, upon physical death, humans don't cease to exist, because our spiritual part, the soul, is immortal. God becoming human and dying doesn't mean He ceases to exist, but rather His physical body died.

TheHC said:

[...] God cannot become any kind of mortal being.

Now what?

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Now give your explanation for why God can't incarnate Himself as a human.

TheHC said:

Both accounts were written decades after our Savior’s death and resurrection. And yet, every English translation I’ve read renders it, “has seen”, as used in the present tense, indicating an action that started in the past and continues to the present. None say "had seen", which is used in the past tense, describing an action that was completed.

“Until Jesus” is absent in every one.

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Both Jn. 1:18 and 1 Jn. 4:12 say "No one has seen God at any time", and if you considered the surrounding words and verses of each, you'll find that what's being said is no one has seen God at any time until Jesus, and it's in the perfect tense ("an action done in the past which still matters now"). Will you find the words "until Jesus"? No, and you don't have to, because there's more than one way to say something.

TheHC said:

No, they aren’t!

They themselves know different….

Mark 1:24:
“Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”

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Spirits are incorporeal beings, and thus are not subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which makes them immortal ("exempt from physical death and decay"). Therefore, the demon, a spirit, wasn't using the word "destroy" to mean "kill physically".

TheHC said:

As a side point, they also knew Jesus’ identity: “the Holy One of God”.
Jesus is “of” God, not God.

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To say Jesus is of God is another way of saying that He's God. Remember: there's more than one way to say something.

TheHC said:

[...] God cannot become any kind of mortal being.

Now what?

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Now give your explanation for why God can't incarnate Himself as a human.

TheHC said:

[...] they can be destroyed! As the demon said. Hence, not immortal.

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Do you think that the demon was saying spirits can be destroyed as in killed physically? If so, that isn't the case, because spirits are incorporeal beings (Lk. 24:39), and thus are not subject to the limits of physical death and decay, which is the definition of the word "immortal".

TheHC said:

Where did Adam go at death? To the “dust”; to the “ground.” Genesis 3:19.

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In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust. (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20)

Gen. 2:7 goes on to say, "[...] and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26). In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is a spirit (soul): God's image and likeness.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)

"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!'” (Ac. 7:59)

TheHC said:

The concept of ‘souls existing after death’, is not found in the Bible. Just the opposite: nephesh - “soul” in Hebrew - dies. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20.

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A spirit, such as the soul, is incorporeal, and thus is not subject to the limits of physical death, which is the definition of the word "immortal", but it can become subject to a spiritual death, which means living in eternal separation from God in Hell, or it will live eternally with God in Heaven. (Ezek. 18:4;5;9)

TheHC said:

You’ve been taught pagan Greek philosophy. It’s not your fault.

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God existed before the Greeks and man's immortal spirit (soul) is referenced throughout Scripture back to the Book of Genesis.

TheHC said:

The Earth is “of God”; Adam was of God”; angels are “of God”; the Bible is “of God.” None are God.

Nothing “of” or “from” a thing, can be that very same exact thing.

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TheHC said:

You just destroyed your argument, because it supports my post … Yes, it “still matters now”.


“No one has ever seen God”, even now!

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The Earth, Adam and Eve, and the angels, etc., are of God because they were created by God. Only the Word (God) was generated by God, and that's why Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is of God and is God.

No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, Who is nearest to the Father's heart, Who has made Him known (Jn. 1:18), which is in perfect tense: "an action done in the past which still matters now".

Not two natures, but only One. Not just One Person but Two. Of the same Nature. Different in their personal relationship of generation. One single Being, even if two distinct Persons. Therefore, God the Father, just like God the Son form the One, only God. As the Father is eternal so the Son is eternal.

Omnipotent, infinite, the most Perfect, then Generated one just as the Generating one.

The Two with One will, knowledge and power, even though They are reciprocally independent in Their action; willing, knowing and having power, the Word as it wants, knows and has the Thought which generated it contemplating itself in its Most perfect Perfections, and understanding itself, as only God can understand God, and exult in seeing oneself.

And in this exultation generate the Light, the Life, because they were and would create, multiplying the loving joy of God who shrines through the power of diffusing His love on an infinite number of creatures, giving them all His loving care, giving the creatures made in His image and likeness Himself and His Kingdom in order to surround Himself with a people of sons, enlightened in time by the Light so that they can know, serve, and love the Lord, gladdened by the eternal enjoyment of the beatific vision of God beyond time.

The Generated Word is not inferior in relationship to the Generating Thought, but is spontaneously obedient out of the holiest love of the Divine Son to His Father Who has divinely generated Him.

The Son, exulting in the bosom of the Father, Who exults contemplating His Word and seeing every creature in the Light generated by Him, to whom He has given His life and every other property, except that of His being Father. This is so that every creature gifted with spirit and reason, can sufficiently know God his Creator through the eternal generation of the Word and His Incarnation in time; because all the admirable perfections of God the Father are visible in the Uncreated Word and the Incarnate Word.