Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It's not unfathomable. I'm not exactly a classical trinitarian, although I don't feel like I can discuss that here.
But I certainly believe, "He is the image of the invisible God" and that involves a measure of divinity.
Most accurate modern translation?
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But I certainly believe, "He is the image of the invisible God" and that involves a measure of divinity.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
FWIW…I will address some of your scriptural points regardless of your protestations….you can close your heart and mind but we will all eventually face the same judge…and he will determine who are “sheep” and who are “goats”…..(Matt 7:21-23) In a world ruled by the deceiver…nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)
You translate my words about as accurately as your olde English Bible….
Every one of those verses has a meaning that is conveyed in the rest of the Bible which does not contradict itself….if you look these up in an Interlinear with a good concordance, you will see the errors….or perhaps you don’t want to see….that is not my call.
Here we go….
1) John 1:18…..
Now we are going to run into which scholars are correct in their translation….I am not a fan of the KJV because of the fact that it contains so many errors, which I found during my Bible study….comparing different translations. Everything the Bible teaches is backed up by other scripture “rightly divided”…..errors produce other errors.
What is this verse saying about God and his son that agrees with the rest of Scripture?
“No man has seen God at any time“…..read it again….and tell me how many people saw Jesus, whom you say is God?
Some translation omit “only begotten SON“ in that verse because in the original Greek it says “monogenes theos” (which is “only begotten god” in Greek) The word “son” is not in that verse but most trinitarians translations don’t seem to care, they just put it in there because it supports their trinity…even the revised NSAB sold out on that one.…and it means that they don’t have to explain how “God” can be “begotten”.
The term “monogenes” is used elsewhere in the Bible to define an ”only child”…it is not an exclusive term for Jesus as if it means something else. So according to Strongs, Jesus can be by definition “theos”…. “divine” or “god-like” without being “deity” which would make him “ho theos”…..he is never once addressed with the definite article as was required when he and his Father are mentioned together in the same passage.
Which leads us to the most widely used “proof text” for the deity of Christ…
2) John 1:1.
Again, read in Greek, it does not say what is translated into English. Look it up in an Interlinear and you will see the omission of the definite article even though it is there in plain sight…..
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God.(theos)”
It is saying that Jesus was “the Word” and that he was “with God”….so how can you be “with” someone and at the same time BE that someone? It is completely illogical.
Calling Jesus “theos” (god) but not “ho theos” (THE God) is declaring his “divinity” as “the son of God”, not his deity as God himself. He never once said he was God.
Verses 2-3
“He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
These also affirm that the Word was “with God” “in the beginning”….so we have to ask what “beginning” is this? The eternal God had no beginning……so it must be speaking about “the beginning of creation” the “firstborn son” was his first creation. (Rev 3:14)……and all creation came into existence “through” the son, not “from“ him. (Col 1:15-17)
Do you understand agency? The son facilitated creation by the will and power of his God and Father. He was the “master workman” at his Father’s side and under his direction. (Prov 8:30-32) He is the “us” and “our” in Gen 1:26.
If someone does something “through” an agency, we get the picture, don’t we? This is how the son can be “with” his Father, but is not his Father, though like him in all respects…..the very image of him in physical form.
Verse 14 says that it was “the Word” who “became flesh“….not “ho theos”. (God)
3) Hebrews 1:6…
“And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
Lets give this some context…..how does the letter to the Hebrews begin…?
1-4….
“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.“ (NASB)
In reading that we get a different picture to the one verse you quoted…..context changes everything. We must take all scripture in context. Jesus is “heir of all things” if he is God, how does that make sense? The one who gives the inheritance cannot be the one inheriting it.
When he had accomplished his mission what did the son do? He “sat down at the right hand of majesty, having become much better than the angels“….what???
And “he has inherited a more excellent name than they”….? Again what???
Are you reading what I am reading?
So now we need to understand what those angels were doing to Jesus…..was it “worship” or was it “obeisance”……it’s the same word, but only “worship” when it is applied to God the Father.
No one was to worship the son……as Jesus told the devil upon temptation…..
Luke 4:5-8…quoting Deuteronomy 20:10…..
“Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘It is the LORD your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” “
The LORD God” to Jews was Yahweh/Jehovah. They had no other God…and neither did Jesus.
There is so much more but why bother…..only those who have their eyes open will see the truth….
Find your excuses, but the truth will be undeniable soon….God will show us all whether our beliefs were well founded upon his word……or not…..there will be no second chances, just as it was in Noah’s day…..(Matt 24:37-39) We are showing God right now, who we really are.
You translate my words about as accurately as your olde English Bible….
Internet yelling is a sign of desperation…you really can highlight portions of Scripture without looking like a fanatic….can you not discuss things rationally?
Every one of those verses has a meaning that is conveyed in the rest of the Bible which does not contradict itself….if you look these up in an Interlinear with a good concordance, you will see the errors….or perhaps you don’t want to see….that is not my call.
Here we go….
1) John 1:18…..
Now we are going to run into which scholars are correct in their translation….I am not a fan of the KJV because of the fact that it contains so many errors, which I found during my Bible study….comparing different translations. Everything the Bible teaches is backed up by other scripture “rightly divided”…..errors produce other errors.
What is this verse saying about God and his son that agrees with the rest of Scripture?
“No man has seen God at any time“…..read it again….and tell me how many people saw Jesus, whom you say is God?
Some translation omit “only begotten SON“ in that verse because in the original Greek it says “monogenes theos” (which is “only begotten god” in Greek) The word “son” is not in that verse but most trinitarians translations don’t seem to care, they just put it in there because it supports their trinity…even the revised NSAB sold out on that one.…and it means that they don’t have to explain how “God” can be “begotten”.
The term “monogenes” is used elsewhere in the Bible to define an ”only child”…it is not an exclusive term for Jesus as if it means something else. So according to Strongs, Jesus can be by definition “theos”…. “divine” or “god-like” without being “deity” which would make him “ho theos”…..he is never once addressed with the definite article as was required when he and his Father are mentioned together in the same passage.
Which leads us to the most widely used “proof text” for the deity of Christ…
2) John 1:1.
Again, read in Greek, it does not say what is translated into English. Look it up in an Interlinear and you will see the omission of the definite article even though it is there in plain sight…..
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God.(theos)”
It is saying that Jesus was “the Word” and that he was “with God”….so how can you be “with” someone and at the same time BE that someone? It is completely illogical.
Calling Jesus “theos” (god) but not “ho theos” (THE God) is declaring his “divinity” as “the son of God”, not his deity as God himself. He never once said he was God.
Verses 2-3
“He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
These also affirm that the Word was “with God” “in the beginning”….so we have to ask what “beginning” is this? The eternal God had no beginning……so it must be speaking about “the beginning of creation” the “firstborn son” was his first creation. (Rev 3:14)……and all creation came into existence “through” the son, not “from“ him. (Col 1:15-17)
Do you understand agency? The son facilitated creation by the will and power of his God and Father. He was the “master workman” at his Father’s side and under his direction. (Prov 8:30-32) He is the “us” and “our” in Gen 1:26.
If someone does something “through” an agency, we get the picture, don’t we? This is how the son can be “with” his Father, but is not his Father, though like him in all respects…..the very image of him in physical form.
Verse 14 says that it was “the Word” who “became flesh“….not “ho theos”. (God)
3) Hebrews 1:6…
“And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
Lets give this some context…..how does the letter to the Hebrews begin…?
1-4….
“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.“ (NASB)
In reading that we get a different picture to the one verse you quoted…..context changes everything. We must take all scripture in context. Jesus is “heir of all things” if he is God, how does that make sense? The one who gives the inheritance cannot be the one inheriting it.
When he had accomplished his mission what did the son do? He “sat down at the right hand of majesty, having become much better than the angels“….what???
And “he has inherited a more excellent name than they”….? Again what???
Are you reading what I am reading?
So now we need to understand what those angels were doing to Jesus…..was it “worship” or was it “obeisance”……it’s the same word, but only “worship” when it is applied to God the Father.
No one was to worship the son……as Jesus told the devil upon temptation…..
Luke 4:5-8…quoting Deuteronomy 20:10…..
“Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘It is the LORD your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” “
The LORD God” to Jews was Yahweh/Jehovah. They had no other God…and neither did Jesus.
There is so much more but why bother…..only those who have their eyes open will see the truth….
Find your excuses, but the truth will be undeniable soon….God will show us all whether our beliefs were well founded upon his word……or not…..there will be no second chances, just as it was in Noah’s day…..(Matt 24:37-39) We are showing God right now, who we really are.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If God resurrected himself after 3 days in the tomb, then who or what was it that died?
The Bible clearly states that God raised Jesus from the dead….it never says he raised himself. (Romans 10:9-10)
Jesus was 100% human, and he gave his life for the human race to have a chance to live the way God had originally purposed for them……which was not in heaven, but here in paradise on earth.
There is no Scripture you could present that cannot be more correctly understood by reading the rest of the Bible to give context and the meaning and intent of the original writers.….no verse of Scripture stands alone, but must be backed up by the rest without contradiction……all your doctrines depend on people doing no research of their own….contradictions abound and there is nothing but confusion in Christendom’s many sects. How is Christ to be found in any of that?
Perhaps your own leaders are the blind heretics…..?
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
They also had no idea about the devil in the ot.
Under your template of study the n t revelations about him are meaningless
The JW bible says, Heb 1 Let ALL God's angels WORSHIP him!
See how God made even the WatchTower confess that Jesus is God!
See how God made even the WatchTower confess that Jesus is God!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Is there something stuck in your throat?
OK….here we have Isaiah’s prophesy about the one who is to become the king of his Father’s kingdom…this “son” is not Almighty God though, as the context goes on to relate….this is a son “given” by the Father, who will achieve rulership in a “government” and his name “shall be called” (future tense) all of those designations…..so first problem? The Almighty already has those designations.….so if we examine them one by one, see if you still come to the same conclusion?
”Wonderful Counsellor”….who can deny that God’s counsel, given to the nation of Israel was in their best interests? Who can deny that if Israel had just obeyed the counsel of their God that blessings would have flowed instead of punishments for their disobedience?
”The Mighty God”…is Jesus a “mighty God” as compared to the “ALMIGHTY God” whom he served? According to the meaning of the Greek “theos” he most certainly is….”mighty” means “powerful”… Was Jesus powerful? Not until his baptism when he received God’s spirit…only then did he become Jesus “the Christ” (anointed one)….so up until the age of 30, Jesus was just a man…sinless in every way, but a mortal human.
The devil’s temptations shortly afterwards revealed a fair bit about this newly baptized son…..
When he told Jesus to throw himself off the battlement of the temple….what did he say?
“If you are a son of God, throw yourself down from here, 10 for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you, to preserve you,’ 11 and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’”
Now if Jesus was God, who could harm him? Why would angels be needed to keep him safe until he could complete his mission?
Jesus is a “mighty God-like” person…..but not the “Almighty God” who is immortal and needs no protection from anyone. Jesus had to be an equivalent to Adam, not God, to redeem the human race.
“The Everlasting Father” is another title that seems to cement the fact that Jesus was somehow his own Father…..but what nonsense! The word “father” in Hebrew, like a lot of other words, has different meanings…
Strongs defines the word “father” (āḇ) as…
- “father of an individual
- of God as father of his people
- head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
- ancestor”
Being “the chief agent of life”, he is responsible for giving life to all mankind….that makes him a father….one who gave everlasting life back to the human race.
The first Adam lost that life for us…the ”last Adam” bought it back for all who love God and accept his truth. (1 Cor 15:45)
”Prince of Peace”….what is a Prince, but the son of a King? Princes could be coregents with their fathers, whilst their father was still king.
As the Sovereign of the Universe, Jehovah has many servants, Jesus was one of them (Acts 4:27, 30) and when humans rebelled in the garden, it created a barrier between God and his human creation……he therefore installed his most trusted son as “mediator”…..a facilitator of reconciliation between two parties. The one appointed as mediator cannot be one of the parties, as the “go between” has to serve the interests of both sides In order to re-establish peaceful relations. (1 Tim 2:5-6)
It is the zeal of “The LORD of Hosts” who will accomplish this. Read in Hebrew, the Tetragrammaton is there in that verse…..so “The LORD of Hosts“ mentioned by Isaiah, is Jehovah.
So in each designation there is an explanation supported by the rest of the Scriptures to show us what God’s word says about many things that are put up as evidence for certain beliefs, but which, on further investigation are found to be baseless.
Interesting how JW's won't deal with one question or Scripture at a time. It's like Kingdom Hall teaches JW's to smokescreen and avoid Scripture like plague.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
Thanks Aunty. I have also been studying the Scriptures intently for 50 years, and I have learned both Greek and Hebrew - enough to have great respect for the modern translators.
In Romans 3:4, and 5 we have a teaching on nobody is righteous by the Law. In the chapters of 6 and 7 we have the sin nature. The whole chapter of 8 on walking in the spirit. I can do the same in Ephesians where there's whole chapters on the mystery of the one body. But on the trinity there's nothing. In both old and new testament. Nothing. Just scraps meaning a verse here and a verse somewhere else. One would think something that important would have been taught by someone. And yet nobody had.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
"""Internet yelling is a sign of desperation…you really can highlight portions of Scripture without looking like a fanatic….can you not discuss things rationally?"""
Uh no, all caps for emphasis.
But you also did it .
For emphasis?
Yelling at me?
Desperation?
I don't usually go there when I see the pot <> kettle hypocrisy. But it is usually a sign you are in desperation.
See how easy that is to shift the debate into your little personal attacks???
"""Again, read in Greek, it does not say what is translated into English. Look it up in an Interlinear and you will see the omission of the definite article even though it is there in plain sight…..
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God.(theos)”
It is saying that Jesus was “the Word” and that he was “with God”….so how can you be “with” someone and at the same time BE that someone? It is completely illogical.
Calling Jesus “theos” (god) but not “ho theos” (THE God) is declaring his “divinity” as “the son of God”, not his deity as God himself. He never once said he was God."""
It CLEARLY says GOD.
try and find an old watchtower bible.
It has "a God" incorrectly inserted. (" ... The word was a god".)Then in the footnotes they Quote A.T. Robinson as an authority on their erroneous heresy.
Robinson threatened a law suit to get his name out of there as it is the ultimate heresy.
Any Greek scholar will agree with it being error.
But that is the length your organization goes down to ,to mentally interpret the trinity.
Heresy is watchtowers banner.
It is founded and thrives in heresy.
None of you know who Jesus is.
All watchtower has EVER proven, is that men, trying to mentally process The bible, will fail every time.
Every cult, including watchtower, stumbles at the person of Jesus.
As you are demonstrating.
Btw, you can never get clever enough to remove the deity scriptures a babe in Christ could easily accept.
You reject them and did not try to address all my verses.
It is futile. It says what it says.
You, nor your organization can deal with it.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
and yet watchtower has no understanding of salvation .
Gen 1
Let US create man in OUR IMAGE, OUR LIKENESS.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
She denies the deity of Jesus
She is watchtower, spreading lies and heresy here in this board.
That is evil.
“Let us.” This “let us” is God speaking to His divine council, which is His council of spirit beings that God works with in ruling and running His creation. God’s divine council is an important but not commonly understood part of Scripture, so it deserves some explanation.
God is love. That simple statement explains why God created the universe as He did, and populated it with both spirit beings and human beings. God also gave those beings free will so that He could interact with them and they could serve Him and interact with Him because they chose to out of love. When God created the universe, and later when He created mankind and then the Church, He enlisted the help of His created beings to help Him govern creation. God does not rule over His created beings as a tyrant, making every decision by Himself and commanding His creation to carry out His wishes. Rather, God works with them and allows them to help Him govern His universe. There is evidence for this throughout the Bible.
For example, when God created the angels and other spirit beings, He created different categories and hierarchies among them so that there would be order as He worked with His creation. We see this in a number of different ways and places in Scripture. For example, when God created the angels, He created them with different abilities and in different positions. He made some of them to be “archangels” (archangelos; ἀρχάγγελος) a word built from the Greek prefix archi (chief; highest; first) and the word angelos (messenger; “angel”). “Archangel” means “chief angel” or “ruling angel,” and the Christian world would have a much better grasp of the authority structures of the spirit world if the Greek word archangelos had been translated as “ruling angel” instead of transliterated as “archangel.”
The angelic world has a hierarchy, with some angels ruling over others. The ruling angel Michael is specifically called one of the “chief princes” (or “primary rulers”) in Daniel 10:13. Similarly, Revelation 10:1 and 18:21 mention “strong” angels who are more powerful than others. Not only do the angels differ in authority and power, there are also more kinds of spirit beings than just angels, such as cherubim and seraphim.
We also see different ranks of spirit beings in verses like Ephesians 6:12, which says that Christians wrestle against “rulers” (archē), “authorities” (exousia), and “world-rulers” (kosmokratōr) who are spiritual forces of evil. These are not just different words to describe the same spirit beings; these constitute different ranks of authority and power in the spirit world. Similarly, Colossians 1:16 mentions “thrones” (thronos), lordships (kuriotēs), rulers (archē), and “authorities” (exousia), and these are different positions in the Kingdom of God and the Church.
God rules over all the spirit beings of various ranks and powers, and they are called “gods.” Indeed, there are many “gods” (1 Cor. 8:5). That is why God is called the “Most High” God (Gen. 14:18)—because He is far greater than all the other gods. In fact, God is called the “Most High” God more than 50 times in the Old Testament, and nine times in the New Testament.
When God created mankind, He continued to allow the beings He had created to be rulers under Him. He gave Adam and Eve rulership over the animals (Gen. 1:28) and the responsibility of managing the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:15). Later, as the human population on earth increased, God commanded that rulers and judges be appointed to help Him rule (Exod. 18:21-23; Deut. 16:18). Even in the future Messianic Kingdom God will have “under-rulers” who will help Him and the Lord Jesus to rule (Isa. 1:26; Jer. 3:15; 23:4; Ezek. 44:24; Matt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 2:26). Of course, the greatest example of God allowing one of His beings to rule was when He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18), and set him at His own right hand, “far above every ruler, and authority, and power, and lordship, and every name that is named…and he [God] put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet” (Eph. 1:21-22). God made His Son Jesus ruler of His creation (Rev. 3:14).
When the Christian Church started, God continued His pattern of enlisting the aid of His creation to rule, and so He, via the Lord Jesus Christ, set up ministries to rule and equip the Church. Christ gave the equipping ministries of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to help Him administer the Church and “to prepare God’s people for works of service” (Eph. 4:11-13 NIV84). This is why Paul speaks of the authority he has from the Lord as an apostle, which is the same authority that other called leaders have from the Lord (2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10; 1 Thess. 4:2; Titus 2:15).
Besides the fact that God rules the spiritual world through a council of spirit beings just as He rules the earth via earthly rulers and the Church through appointed ministers, there is good biblical evidence, and some extra-biblical evidence, that God has a ruling council of spirit beings with whom He consults. Of course, God would not need to have a divine council, He is certainly capable of doing things on His own, but having such a council is in harmony with His loving nature and His desire to work together with His creation.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
"Us"...MAKE...CREATE ..MAN
"In our image"
John 1
" and apart from him...(AHEM , JESUS), THERE WAS Nothing CREATED"
WE SEE Jesus as creator.
But in your mental rejection Of Jesus, of course you have no idea who Jesus is.
You instead try to figure out WHAT he is.
You are, as far as I can tell, a watchtower plant.
You are one of their top people, sent here to subvert true Christianity with your heresy.
You are 100% a heretic
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Wonder how many watchtower sheep fall for that " angels are Co creators" baloney?
Roughly 99.9 percent?
What a sideshow teaching us their is hierarchy in heaven and God is Love.
Total dodge, while trying to sound so watchtowery savvy.
Well, thank you for classifying me as somebodies top people and a complete heretic.
P.S. The image is probably spirit that humans have making them body, soul and spirit. God who is spirit created us with His spirit. That had to be what Adam and Eve lost. They may have given the spirit back to see how it would be to walk by the senses. Well, we know it was not an apple. God told them you will die if you do this. And even that makes sense because it's the spirit that has the everlasting life. The flesh profited nothing.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
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