Once Saved Always Saved

[Eternally Grateful]

I just quoted where God said we can be cut off.

Romans 11:22 (NKJV)
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

He did not say they could lose salvation. Thats your interpretation. If we can lose salvation. God is a liar!.

You're perfect? Nah.

Yet the author of hebrews said I have been perfected forever (justified)

The term justified. literally means declared righteous.

Of course I am still being sanctified. NO ONE is perfect (sinless).

Heb 10: 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I love how you hate to even respond to the passages I give.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And I gave you His warnings against OSAS.
Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This is not eternal salvation. This is speaking about the tribulation period. And how whoever endures to the end of this period will be saved (This is physical salvation not eternal salvation)

once again, you take a passage out of Context. And once again you make God contradict himself.

And here you told me you did not trust in self?? Here is is YOU enduring to the end.

I pray you start looking inside and seeing where your faith truly lies

 

[Taken]

The objection is not that predestination is not in the Bible. The objection is to what Calvin said it means.

I hear "about" this guy named Calvin several times on this forum.
I hear "people making claims of what he said" on this forum.

I don't ever see anyone quoting what this guy Calvin ... actually said.

Why if this Calvin is so reputed, is his own words never quoted?

Humm?

 

[Charlie24]

Listen.

Is faith the savior, or is God the Savior?
Its not both.
Go with God, and stop believing in faith.
Stop trying to keep yourself saved, as you can't do it.
God does it for you.

Philippians 1:6

Faith does not save you.
God saves you, by accepting your faith, ONCE.
Just once.
You are saved ONCE.
Born again ONCE., and you can never stop being born again, as this is a BIRTH and you cant undo a birth by bad behavior or how you think.

I don't want to be overly repetitive, or place fear in the heart of anyone!

I believe in eternal security, we can certainly be sure of our salvation!

But to compare our natural birth and our spiritual birth as a means of confirming OSAS is to be in error!

We don't have a choice in the natural birth, but we do have a choice in the spiritual birth.

The scripture makes it abundantly clear that some will depart from the faith!

They had no choice in being born into this world, but they do have the choice to no longer believe after salvation.

They do this of their own free will, they choose to no longer believe.



No man plucked them out of the Father's hand, they plucked themselves out of His hand!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

you can never stop being born again, as this is a BIRTH and you cant undo a birth by bad behavior or how you think.

Okay, so obviously, you believe that osas is true. That's fine, you can believe that if you want. Doesn't matter. But did you know that osas says the person who stops believing was never really saved to begin with? In osas teaching, the person who stops believing does not remain saved as you are asserting. Osas says they were never really saved to begin with.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Soooo, I take it that you can't fnd the verses with explicit language for:

- "Sola Scripture" or "Scripture ALONE" is our "Sole Authority"
- The idea that we are saved by "Faith Alone" or "Sola Fide"
- "Once Saves ALWAYS Saved"

I didn't think so - yet YOU demand explicit wording John 3:5.
We just found something that you're good at: Hypocrisy . . .

YAWN

Your argument is Jesus spoke of baptism in John 3

You cant show where Jesus said baptism

I PROVED where jesus said believe (in your instance Jesus should have said believe and be baptized. If baptism was in reference)

I do not need to prove anything my friend, Your the one who has to prove it. Its YOUR suggestion. not mine

I just read jesus words for what they say.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I thought Paul said God's gifts are irrevocable and our sealing by God's Holy Spirit assured the promise. How are we able to lose Salvation if Jesus said we are in his hands always?

Amen.

Sadly people feel they have to be a part of it. Its human nature. It is against our nature to take a freebie and be told we can not earn something. Thats why we must be broken to enter the narrow Gate. or as Jesus said, Become poor in spirit (the word translated poor is literally to become bankrupt) if we want to enter the kingdom.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OSAS a VERY dangerous doctrine!

Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

NOSAS rejects faith in God and places the onus of salvation on self and mankinds ability

Eternal life and the seal of the spirit and all of Gods promises of eternal security are not dangerous. In fact John said it is our knowledge we have eternal life which empowers us to continue to believe.

You offer hope is self. which is no hope at all.

 

[Taken]

Your believing is how you have God's keeping power.

No. Precisely your Conversion is your giving GOD authority, FOR HIS POWER to KEEP YOU IN BELIEF.

 

[mailmandan]

Your argument is Jesus spoke of baptism in John 3
You cant show where Jesus said baptism

Amen! In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the mystical source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life in which we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted, yet certain people are only interested in accommodating their biased church doctrine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If OSASers are wrong they are guilty of leading people to Hell fire. Never heard of Judgment Day?

Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

No OSAS in the Bible.

If NOSAS is wrong your leading people to Hell.

Once again. That passage is not about eternal salvation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Kcnalp, your posts come off as mocking, but that's ok... I'm cool with that. But I want to explain my position to you and hope you see the key points as why I believe what I do.

While I don't believe in "OSAS doctrine" (bear with me in my folly) I do believe in predestination. Frankly, John Calvin didn't believe in what is now presented as OSAS, but he did believe in predestination. He and I have good reason for that: its directly spoken of in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. The concept is also talked about in other ways multiple times.

A real quick note on John Calvin: if the OSAS doctrine means a Christian can do whatever he wants and is ok.... John preached heavily against that! Have you heard the notion that grace isn't a liscense to sin? (Of course you have!) Well, Calvin is the earliest person I can find to directly use that saying.

In any sense, back to predestination. Its a big part of OSAS. Calvin wrote 3 chapters in one book about it and that's why his followers came up with OSAS and Tulip after he died. Again, I believe Calvin would roll over in his grave if he knew what his partial writings evolved into.

If you want to debate whether predestination is in the Bible, you are going to have a tough time, because clearly it is! Not only in Eph 1 and Rom 8, but many other places.

My stance is that there are people who God knows and foreordained to be saved. Not only did he know it, but he planned it. If you are in any way familiar with the argument, you already know most of the verses I would bring up. Likewise, I know your verses you would counter with.

The fact is that yes... A person can be in a Christian lifestyle and properly so and walk away. It was talked about in the Bible and it happens today. This is fuel for proponents of "free will" to say, "see"?

I get that... It seems like a logical argument. But there is one passage brings it into proper perspective:

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A person who identifies with Jesus but then walks away was never truly a Christian. That verse and a few others explain why predestination is a truth and destroys the "free moral agent" doctrine and puts verses like Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 6 and 2 Peter 2 in proper perspective. Yes, you can leave and before you left you may have "walked the walk" pretty well! But according to 1 John 2... You were always"not of us".

However, in a practical sense, I find the concept of predestination pretty useless. It there, its reassuring, it pairs nicely with the guidelines given to be saved, but 1 John 2 is also a warning. It tells us we must persevere to the end, and with the fact that ole FHII and Kcnalp aren't directly mentioned in the Bible... We aren't given assurance! We get the gameplan, God knows the outcome, and yea... He declared it before the foundations of the world... But he tells very few people before they finish.... And even them he did tell were still walking on thin ice. They still struggled to complete the task.

So, if you are one that believes we can lose our salvation if we don't remain faithful, I don't have a problem with that. My belief is that we never had it to begin with because God already knew. But my belief also is that while God knew, he doesn't tell us, so we have to contend for the faith daily. In the end, whats the difference? Both doctrines require faith day by day and both doctrines don't give the person assurance that they are in.

I am hoping that you at least get my perspective..

I still think most people hate OSAS because they attribute it to Calvin and the 5 point TULIP plan. Its the old Calvin Vs Arminian debate. If you believe in predestination, OSAS and the like you are calvinist.

If you believe in free will, NOSAS and the like you are arminian.

then of course we have the third group which would be those who come from the Roman church.

I never heard of OSAS until I joined a christian chat room. While the term represents (once a person is saved, they will always remain saved) I agree with. as I think here reading your post, I am not even sure I know what the doctrine of OSAS teaches. I guess I should look this up.

I agree with predestination. As with the other passages. It shows that God did not make a mistake. He chose to save us not only before the foundation. But he will never lose one. Election. Although I disagree with modern day calvinist thinking of double predestination. Like you said, the word is biblical and it a fact. Not fiction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the mystical source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life in which we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted, yet certain people are only interested in accommodating their biased church doctrine.

Amen. Three possible views of water. None of which is physical water baptism. All equally the more logical, than the word baptism.

Also. None of the three would need to have Jesus say anything when he told Nicodemus HOW to be born again..

John 3:
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also notice in context. IF baptism was what Jesus spoke of. Not only would he have mentioned it (believe and be baptized) but he would have made a provision. that if one believes yet is not baptized. they would remain condemned. Again, the fact baptism is not mentioned anywhere in this passage PROVES it is not what is meant by Water

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL ~
A water ritual does not save anyone.
Didn't your read what "John the Baptists" water baptism was for?

Luke 3:
[3] And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins...

So...as an Infant, what? 8 days old, 1 year old? Someone poured water on your head, and declared (without your knowledge) your sins were forgiven?

What sins did you repent of and were you (unknowingly forgiven)?

Hummm?

As usual, another dodge - but NO actual answer.
My challenge was that not ONE of you has been able to produce a SINGLE verse of Scripture that denies infant Baptism - and I was right.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Water Baptism is a ritual for "men" TO SEE.
John Baptizing Jesus with water WAS FOR MEN to SEE.
Less you think, Jesus' water Baptism, FORGAVE 'HIS' sins....which would mean, you do not know, Jesus had NO SIN to be Forgiven!

Water didn't forgive Jesus' SINS, any more than Water forgave, your SINS.

A little Scriptural notice... Sins are forgiven BY the Lord God, for Confessing Heartful belief, IN Jesus and the One who sent Him.

Somehow, I doubt you (as an infant), confessed Belief.

You unknowingly took part in a water ritual, that neither saved your soul or quickened your spirit....
Jesus' Baptism is the Baptism that saves souls and quickens spirits...
Very Strange, you do not know the difference.

Did MUD heal the Blind Man - or did Jesus?

Then, why didn't Jesus simply pray over him?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I actually BELIEVE Scripture...
Scripture TEACHES the TRUTH.
WHOSOEVER is born of God, CAN NOT SIN.
(1 John 3:9)
I was OFFERED...forgiveness OF my SINS..
And I accepted the Lords OFFER.
Because I accepted the Lords OFFERING,
I was given Gods Seed.
Because I was given Gods Seed,
His Seed rebirthed MY spirit.
When His SEED rebirthed MY spirit...
I became "WHOSOEVER" born of God.
And thereafter, I can NEVER SIN AGAIN.

I realize it is a strange doctrine for you...
But none the Less, it is The Lords Doctrine, and your unbelief of The Lords Doctrine...
Has ZERO effect on me.



Stumbling is a result OF "YOUR" FALLEN nature.
YOU hang ON TO "YOUR" FALLEN nature.
(THAT is "YOUR" delimma, and "EXCUSE", to continue to claim " you CONTINUE sin", and your "EXCUSE", to continuously wag your tongue and accuse others of committing SIN".)

Unlike "YOU", I offered my "FALLEN NATURE", to be CRUCIFIED with Christ.
"MY" fallen nature IS DEAD!

Rom 6:
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

LOL...people Live FOR sin? LOL
YOU LIVE in "your fallen nature"... so you can sin? WEIRD!

YOU LIVE in "your fallen nature" ... but try really hard, "not to sin" ?

OXYMORON...You should have learned from the Tribes of Israel...they could not overcome SINNING (according to THEIR LAW), without their BODY BECOMING PHYSICALLY DEAD!

You remain in your "Natuaral Fallen" state...
And Continue to SIN, (according to Mosaic Law)
And...
You wag your finger at others, claiming THEY COMMIT SIN, (according to MOSAIC LAW)...
AND NEVER COME TO UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH.

The knowledge of the TRUTH IS in Scripture.
It affects me NOT ONE IOTA, if "YOU" TRUST or BELIEVE Scripture.

It affects me NOT ONE IOTA, if you "keep your Fallen Nature", and use that as an EXCUSE to continue to SIN and accuse others.

I ACCEPTED the Lords OFFERING...
I repented to The Lord.
He forgave my all of my sins.
He accepted the crucified Death of my body.
He restored my soul.
He quickened my spirit.
His Spirit IS IN ME...
And NO, NEVER AGAIN, CAN I SIN.

You may "think" you have the Lords SPIRIT IN YOU...and CAN SIN...
However I BELIEVE MY Lord CAN NOT DWELL IN SIN!

But, but, but...as an INFANT, "you did NOT REPENT!"

Your Deafness, and Failure to comprehend Has NOT ONE IOTA TO DO with my having RECEIVED the Lords Gift of Salvation of my soul and Quickening of my spirit, and Power of God to be free from Sin, and Sin no more.

Your teaching of a water ritual...does nothing to save ones soul or quicken ones spirit...
(As you claim).

You SHOULD, actually READ the Scriptures...
Jesus' Baptism is the ONLY Baptism that saves a mans soul and quickens a mans spirit....ONCE and For Ever!

Hint...
Acts 2:
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

READ IT... REPENT before receiving the Lords Baptism...

You preach, you received the Lords Baptism ... as an Infant...WITHOUT REPENTING!

False Preaching.

Yers, thank you for yet ANOTHER long-winded, psychotic rant . . .

In the CONTEXT of Scripture (there's that nasty word again) - we are NOT told that we will neve sin again.
We are told that we will no longer be slaves to sin AND its consequences.

Scripture doesn't lie - even if YOU do.
- James tells his born again readers to "Conefess your sins" (James 5:16).
- Paul tells his born again readers about the Ministry of Reconciliation - and that he is forgiving their sins in the PERSON of Christ (2 Cor. 2:10).
- John tells his born again readers that people like YOU who say they have NO sin deceive themselves and the truth is NOT in them (1 John 1:8).

Nice try - but I'll stick with God's Word . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Today's version of osas has many Christians thinking their sin doesn't matter.

Can you name some people? I have yet to meat anyone who thinks this. The only time I hear it is from non osas people.. I am just asking

I know it is a risk of people who think once you say a prayer sin does not matter. But I have never heard it taught this way.

I think the danger is there. But in reality. Most people know better

 

[BreadOfLife]

It pretty obvious that you're no Einstein, as common sense has no effect on you, ive noticed.
The reality is, you can't be an Einstein, and a Catholic.
So, your thought process, is typical of water cult mentality.

So, let me try again for you.

1. Were you born or hatched? If you were born then your mother's water broke, and you came out from that natural birth
THats the 1st Birth, "of water".

2. Now you need a 2nd birth as you've already been born once.....

ONE more time, Einstein:

Jesus didn't say: "Unless a man is born of water, THEN born of the Spirit."
He said, "Unless a man is born of water AND the Spirit"

"Water, THEN, the Spirit" = TWO births - natural, THEN spiritual.
"Water AND the Spirit" = ONE Birth, NEW Birth.

It's NOT that difficult to parse . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did not judge anything
you are pretty proud man.
I believe this is why I stopped responding to you in the past, your arrogant like most Catholics,are

Funny - Catholics are only "arrogant" when they're educated.
Otherwise, they're "stupid".

This Catholic has taken you to the Scriptural woodshed . . .

 

[Taken]

As usual, another dodge - but NO actual answer.
My challenge was that not ONE of you has been able to produce a SINGLE verse of Scripture that denies infant Baptism - and I was right.

The Negative you want is not IN Scripture.
The Positive IS IN Scripture, If that is not sufficient for you...too bad for you.