The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What could be understood in scriptures is that God did not only use Pharaoh’s hardness of heart, but raised him up for His purpose and that God hardened Pharaoh. Pharaoh’s actually hardening his heart proves what God said, that He will harden Pharaoh ~ He had indeed hardened Pharaoh.

<<<God accomplished his plan for his people, but he's not locked into doing it a certain way.>>>

Not in any way saying that He is locked up into doing things in a certain way. I only told you how God had accomplished in Pharaoh, what His purpose in raising up Pharaoh.

Yes, because God has all knowledge, God raised up Pharoah, knowing what path Pharoah would take. If Pharoah would have chosen to follow a path of obedience to God, then God would have known that and used his obedience in a different way, instead of sending plagues.

Until now you have not told us what to you the phrase concerning Pharaoh means “raised you up” in Romans 9:17. Is that so hard a question?

Tong
R2129

 

[brightfame52]

then you disagree with the Bible's Teaching, because what Calvin says here IS what the Bible from Genesis to Revelation teaches on the salvation of sinners!

Not the bible, but that !

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, the thing is, you have by your illustration, shown mercy to be unconditional. And that was just my point in making reference to that.

It's still conditioned on our faith or lack of it.

God shows mercy to all peoples, both to the saved and the unsaved.

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R2130

 

[Renniks]

Until now you have not told us what to you the phrase concerning Pharaoh means “raised you up” in Romans 9:17. Is that so hard a question?

Tong
R2129

It means exactly what it says.
God could have allowed another pharaoh to occupy the throne, but due to his foreknowledge he chose this one.

Exodus 9:15-16
(God speaking to Pharaoh through Moses) I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up (have spared you) for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

To raise up means "to spare". Pharaoh deserved instant death, yet God spared him for a time. Sometimes God spares the least deserving, because by doing so he is able to accomplish his greater purpose of revealing and reconciling himself to the world.
If God arbitrarily and capriciously hardened Pharoah from birth, that would be unjust. However, the accounts don't indicates this. The hardening was an act of judgment against a man who had committed much evil, and had positioned himself against God.

 

[Renniks]

God shows mercy to all peoples, both to the saved and the unsaved.

Tong
R2130

You mean because even the unsaved get beer and hot dogs, and maybe even a steak now and then?
That's called common Grace and isn't what we're talking about. "Oh I was never allowed the chance for redemption, but I got french fries and sex while I was here!"

Not exactly a consolation prize.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God have mercy on whom He wills.

But the point in that post is that fairness has nothing to do with mercy.

Yes he does and God wills to give mercy to those who choose to have faith in him. You know where the verse about God having mercy on whom he will have mercy comes from?

12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.


Sure doesn't look unconditional, does it?

<<<Sure doesn't look unconditional, does it?>>>

God had already shown His mercy to Moses and the children of Israel when He had taken them out of slavery in Egypt. After which He made a covenant with them and Israel with Him. Israel had committed a grave sin against God not long after they were taken out of slavery in Egypt. I am sure you know about the golden calf. Moses pleaded with God to not to destroy and kill them. God heard Moses’ appeal and granted it. Nowhere in there can one find conditional mercy. That is not conditional mercy. And that God’s mercy on the children of Israel with regards their grave sin (the golden calf) is not conditional is clearly seen in what He said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Do you find any condition in there? I see none.

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R2131

 

[justbyfaith]

What?

Tong
R2123

Never mind if you didn't get it the first time.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What action would you suppose could be expected from him?

I've already answered this question in detail. The action is internal, to slay the big idol of oneself, to submit one's will to God.

So are you saying you expect the fallen unregenerate man, whose EVERY intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth, to submit his will to God? Well,....

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R2132

 

[Wrangler]

Oh appealing to mystery ...how original.

There is no benefit in speculating beyond Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

So are you saying you expect the fallen unregenerate man, whose EVERY intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth, to submit his will to God? Well,....

You are turning from the point. The point is not about the unrepentant. It is recognizing that repenting is the work we have to do to be saved.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Not the bible, but that !

but what Calvin says here is 100% Biblical, so if you disagree with Calvin on this, then you disagree with the Bible!

 

[Renniks]

God heard Moses’ appeal and granted it. Nowhere in there can one find conditional mercy.

Oops, just contradicted yourself! God himself says why he granted it, but you say there's no reason. Strange!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
His choosing of people for salvation does not go against His nature. His choosing of people for salvation is only one of the many things God does which are all consistent to His nature. When I say His nature, I refer to everything about His being God, which includes His wisdom, will, knowledge, power, character, and so on.

Ok, but that doesn't tell me why he picks Joe and refuses Jim in your theology.

I wonder why you need to know why God had chosen those He had chosen for salvation. Is it not enough that you know that God’s choices and doing are consistent with His nature, meaning that such was not unrighteous and unjust?

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R2133

 

[Renniks]

There is no benefit in speculating beyond Scripture.

It it beyond scripture? We are told in scripture why God picks Joe and not Jim...

 

[Renniks]

I wonder why you need to know why God had chosen those He had chosen for salvation. Is it not enough that you know that God’s choices and doing are consistent with His nature, meaning that such was not unrighteous and unjust?

Tong
R2133

Soo... When Dad was dishing ice cream out on Sunday evening, if he just bypassed me, and I asked "Why?" And he says "because I'm the Dad, that's why." That's basically your answer?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The fallen unregenerate man does not thirst for God.

Was Jeremiah right in God putting on our heart, his law?

Would I dare say that God was wrong in doing that?

What is your point?

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R2134

 

[Tong2020]

Renniks said: ↑
Ok, but that doesn't tell me why he picks Joe and refuses Jim in your theology

My friend, let me humbly suggest this question is above our pay grade.

Agree. The secret things belong to God and the things revealed are which that belong to us.

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R2135

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<God only does this for those who believe on him.>>>

Scriptures speaks of God as will be doing that to unbelieving, idolatrous, and sinful Israel, and will be doing that for His holy name’s sake, not really for their sake.

God won't be saving any unbelieving Jews. Not all that are Israel are the nation of Israel.

I was not at all saying the unbelieving will be saved.

What I was saying is that which refutes what you said in your response post# 690 to CadyandZoe.

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R2136

 

[Wrangler]

Would I dare say that God was wrong in doing that?

What is your point?

My point is contradictions do not exist in reality. Either Jeremiah was right in putting the law onto our hearts or you are right in some men do not thirst for God.

 

[Wrangler]

It it beyond scripture? We are told in scripture why God picks Joe and not Jim...

As demonstrated by the absence of a verse from Scripture.