The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I disagree with that.

then you disagree with the Bible's Teaching, because what Calvin says here IS what the Bible from Genesis to Revelation teaches on the salvation of sinners!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Are you asking what I meant to say by “God chooses people for salvation consistent to His nature”?

Yes.

His choosing of people for salvation does not go against His nature. His choosing of people for salvation is only one of the many things God does which are all consistent to His nature. When I say His nature, I refer to everything about His being God, which includes His wisdom, will, knowledge, power, character, and so on.

Tong
R2121

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In Acts 13:46, it is not the gift of eternal life that they rejected, but the word of God. John 5:39-40does not talk about rejecting the gift of eternal life either.

then you are misrepresenting the Bible!

How so? Please show. Else that would only be yet another empty accusation.

Tong
R2122

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
1) who has the final say to one’s salvation?;

If God, then Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him?

See John 6:37.

What?

Tong
R2123

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The analogy fails in that Renniks is not God. Renniks is but a created being having a nature different that of God.

And so, I beg to disagree. In my view, there isn’t the matter of fairness there.

God isn’t unfair in any way shape and form.

Why do you say God is fair?

Because God is good. And being fair is good. Being unfair is not good.

Tong
R2124

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

How so? Please show. Else that would only be yet another empty accusation.

Tong
R2122

WHY should I waste more time here, when it is very clear what these Bible passages do say, but you are trying to disregard them because they show that your theology is flawed!

 

[Renniks]

What could be understood in scriptures is that God did not only use Pharaoh’s hardness of heart, but raised him up for His purpose and that God hardened Pharaoh. Pharaoh’s actually hardening his heart proves what God said, that He will harden Pharaoh ~ He had indeed hardened Pharaoh.

<<<God accomplished his plan for his people, but he's not locked into doing it a certain way.>>>

Not in any way saying that He is locked up into doing things in a certain way. I only told you how God had accomplished in Pharaoh, what His purpose in raising up Pharaoh.

Tong
R2114

Yes, because God has all knowledge, God raised up Pharoah, knowing what path Pharoah would take. If Pharoah would have chosen to follow a path of obedience to God, then God would have known that and used his obedience in a different way, instead of sending plagues.

 

[Renniks]

Well, the thing is, you have by your illustration, shown mercy to be unconditional. And that was just my point in making reference to that.

Tong
R2116

It's still conditioned on our faith or lack of it.

 

[Renniks]

God have mercy on whom He wills.

But the point in that post is that fairness has nothing to do with mercy.

Tong
R2118

Yes he does and God wills to give mercy to those who choose to have faith in him. You know where the verse about God having mercy on whom he will have mercy comes from?

12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.


Sure doesn't look unconditional, does it?

 

[Wrangler]

All we can do is surrender to God

The point is there is still action on our part.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Considering your view then of God’s salvation which you say here, I understand that you get saved by accepting the offer of love by God. Now, the offering of love to you glorifies God, but the accepting the offer glorifies not God but yourself.

Your view makes me ask the questions and thoughts among others: 1) who has the final say to one’s salvation?; 2) Had God saved you by offering love or had you saved yourself by accepting the offer of love?; 3) if none accept the offer of love, no one is saved and Christ’s work is rendered wasted and accomplishes nothing; 4) the one who accepts the offer of love could say “I was saved because I accepted the offer of love”, something one could boast about.

No, that's frankly quite silly. That's like saying I can boast that my wife chooses to love me, even though I'm quite unlovable. A person would have to be a fool to reject love, and that's exactly what scripture says atheists are, BTW. But accepting a free gift isn't working and doesn't give me anything to boast about. Just the opposite. It's like charity. We don't like to accept it because of our pride. We want to earn everything. But we can not ever do enough good to earn God's love. There's no boasting about accepting charity. It means I'm so needy that I can never save myself.

What I said is “4) the one who accepts the offer of love could say “I was saved because I accepted the offer of love”, something one could boast about.” That isn’t saying that one will certainly boast about it. And I find that not silly at all.

You mentioned about love between husband and wife. In my case I did not choose to love my wife, it just came to me, that I love her. What choice I made concerning our love relationship is to marry her. I asked her case, she said it’s the same with her.

What scriptures says of the Christians who love God comes to mind, that they love Him because He first love them. That tells me that if God had not love first, we would not love Him. The reason is that we would have not known what love is if God had not made it known to us. And that not by just saying that He love us. We come to know what love is by instilling it in our hearts. I think His indwelling us even accomplishes that.

<<<A person would have to be a fool to reject love, >>>

I agree. However, a person who rejects love (of God) in my view, isn’t a fool, if he knows not what love (of God) is. That is I think one reason why the pagan Greeks referred to by Paul in one of his letters to the church, see the message of the cross to be foolishness.

<<<It means I'm so needy that I can never save myself.>>>

Yet your view of God’s salvation have you as having the final say. Your salvation depended on your will more than on God’s will. Your salvation, which rest your will, your accepting the offer of love, really gives credit to you, whether you take it or not.

I wonder what is your answer to mu questions 1) and 2) and what is you have to say of 3) there in my post in the quote box.

Tong
R2125

 

[Wrangler]

What action would you suppose could be expected from him?

I've already answered this question in detail. The action is internal, to slay the big idol of oneself, to submit one's will to God.

 

[Tong2020]

CadyandZoe said: ↑
I think this may be a problem for your view. The Logic of mercy is much different than the logic of fairness or justice.

What would happen if God wanted to grant mercy to a God-hater? He would create in him a new heart, taking away his heart of stone and giving him a heart of flesh.

God only does this for those who believe on him. God doesn't drag you to heaven by the hair. He doesn't forcibly rip out your heart and give you a new one.

<<<God only does this for those who believe on him.>>>

Scriptures speaks of God as will be doing that to unbelieving, idolatrous, and sinful Israel, and will be doing that for His holy name’s sake, not really for their sake.

Tong
R2126

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not the same for the fallen unregenerate man.

Because his thirst gets satisfied with toilet water, so to speak.

But it is never permanently satisfied, as with the living water that is given to us by the Lord.

(John 4:13-14, John 6:35, John 7:37-39)

The fallen unregenerate man does not thirst for God.

Tong
R2127

 

[Renniks]

His choosing of people for salvation does not go against His nature. His choosing of people for salvation is only one of the many things God does which are all consistent to His nature. When I say His nature, I refer to everything about His being God, which includes His wisdom, will, knowledge, power, character, and so on.

Tong
R2121

Ok, but that doesn't tell me why he picks Joe and refuses Jim in your theology.

 

[Wrangler]

The fallen unregenerate man does not thirst for God.

Tong
R2127

Was Jeremiah right in God putting on our heart, his law?

 

[Wrangler]

Ok, but that doesn't tell me why he picks Joe and refuses Jim in your theology.

My friend, let me humbly suggest this question is above our pay grade.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
How so? Please show. Else that would only be yet another empty accusation.

WHY should I waste more time here, when it is very clear what these Bible passages do say, but you are trying to disregard them because they show that your theology is flawed!

Then it remains, your accusations are empty.

Tong
R2128

 

[Renniks]

<<<God only does this for those who believe on him.>>>

Scriptures speaks of God as will be doing that to unbelieving, idolatrous, and sinful Israel, and will be doing that for His holy name’s sake, not really for their sake.

Tong
R2126

God won't be saving any unbelieving Jews. Not all that are Israel are the nation of Israel.

 

[Renniks]

My friend, let me humbly suggest this question is above our pay grade.

Oh appealing to mystery ...how original.