The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Renniks]

Are you asking what I meant to say by “God chooses people for salvation consistent to His nature”?

Tong
R2112

Yes.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

In Acts 13:46, it is not the gift of eternal life that they rejected, but the word of God. John 5:39-40 does not talk about rejecting the gift of eternal life either.

then you are misrepresenting the Bible!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That’s quite deep. As much as that would be a good subject to discuss, it’s not what I was referring to in my question.

What view I was referring to is your view on God’s salvation or how you are saved. Does your view on that glorify God and not the creature?

It's one and the same. God is love therefore he offers love to all. That is my view on salvation.

Oh I see. So, as far as I could gather, your view of God’s salvation, is that God saves by offering love to all. But what I read from scriptures is not that. He did not offer love but that He loved and gave love. And how He demonstrated His love, we read in Romans 5:8.

Considering your view then of God’s salvation which you say here, I understand that you get saved by accepting the offer of love by God. Now, the offering of love to you glorifies God, but the accepting the offer glorifies not God but yourself.

Your view makes me ask the questions and thoughts among others: 1) who has the final say to one’s salvation?; 2) Had God saved you by offering love or had you saved yourself by accepting the offer of love?; 3) if none accept the offer of love, no one is saved and Christ’s work is rendered wasted and accomplishes nothing; 4) the one who accepts the offer of love could say “I was saved because I accepted the offer of love”, something one could boast about.

Tong
R2113

 

[justbyfaith]

1) who has the final say to one’s salvation?;

If God, then Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him?

See John 6:37.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The analogy fails in that Renniks is not God. Renniks is but a created being having a nature different that of God.

And so, I beg to disagree. In my view, there isn’t the matter of fairness there.

God isn’t unfair in any way shape and form.

Tong
R2102

Why do you say God is fair?

 

[Renniks]

Considering your view then of God’s salvation which you say here, I understand that you get saved by accepting the offer of love by God. Now, the offering of love to you glorifies God, but the accepting the offer glorifies not God but yourself.

Your view makes me ask the questions and thoughts among others: 1) who has the final say to one’s salvation?; 2) Had God saved you by offering love or had you saved yourself by accepting the offer of love?; 3) if none accept the offer of love, no one is saved and Christ’s work is rendered wasted and accomplishes nothing; 4) the one who accepts the offer of love could say “I was saved because I accepted the offer of love”, something one could boast about.

No, that's frankly quite silly. That's like saying I can boast that my wife chooses to love me, even though I'm quite unlovable. A person would have to be a fool to reject love, and that's exactly what scripture says atheists are, BTW. But accepting a free gift isn't working and doesn't give me anything to boast about. Just the opposite. It's like charity. We don't like to accept it because of our pride. We want to earn everything. But we can not ever do enough good to earn God's love. There's no boasting about accepting charity. It means I'm so needy that I can never save myself.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Why do you say God is fair?

So are you saying that God is unfair? Based on what?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course it's mercy. God is the judge of hearts. How is giving mercy to God haters just? They would not accept it anyway.

I think this may be a problem for your view. The Logic of mercy is much different than the logic of fairness or justice.

What would happen if God wanted to grant mercy to a God-hater? He would create in him a new heart, taking away his heart of stone and giving him a heart of flesh.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So are you saying that God is unfair? Based on what?

Is it fair to forgive some sinners and not others? They all deserve damnation.

 

[Renniks]

I think this may be a problem for your view. The Logic of mercy is much different than the logic of fairness or justice.

What would happen if God wanted to grant mercy to a God-hater? He would create in him a new heart, taking away his heart of stone and giving him a heart of flesh.

God only does this for those who believe on him. God doesn't drag you to heaven by the hair. He doesn't forcibly rip out your heart and give you a new one.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Is it fair to forgive some sinners and not others? They all deserve damnation.

Forgiveness is based on the sinner truly repenting of their sins. This is because of the Mercy and Grace of God

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” And how did God accomplish that? He said to Moses in Exod. 7:3 “ And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.“

Suppose pharaoh had not hardened his heart. God could have still used him to accomplish his purpose without having to strengthen his resolve to resist. God accomplished his plan for his people, but he's not locked into doing it a certain way.

What could be understood in scriptures is that God did not only use Pharaoh’s hardness of heart, but raised him up for His purpose and that God hardened Pharaoh. Pharaoh’s actually hardening his heart proves what God said, that He will harden Pharaoh ~ He had indeed hardened Pharaoh.

<<<God accomplished his plan for his people, but he's not locked into doing it a certain way.>>>

Not in any way saying that He is locked up into doing things in a certain way. I only told you how God had accomplished in Pharaoh, what His purpose in raising up Pharaoh.

Tong
R2114

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
By all means, please show the twisting that you accuse me of. Else such is but an empty accusation.

Joshua 24.15 for starters

Go ahead, show.

Tong
R2115

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
understand there in your illustration that you have mercy to the poor. Is that conditional or unconditional? I see that as not conditional.

Well I'm not God. I would be much more inclined to give to those who I thought were more worthy. If someone would just waste what I gave him, I would probably not give it. But God offers love to all and gives to those who sincerely repent. I don't think I would pardon a Hitler even if he did repent.

Well, the thing is, you have by your illustration, shown mercy to be unconditional. And that was just my point in making reference to that.

Tong
R2116

 

[brightfame52]

As you are a Reformed/Calvinist, hear what John Calvin says on John 3:16,

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

End of..

I disagree with that.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In my take, the passages you quoted, they really were not written to speak of the mercy of God as being conditional, but more to speak of what mercy God is prepared and willing to give to mankind, especially to the people who are called by His name

Then that's conditional. I believe God loves all. But he has conditions for showing mercy. Because that is what scripture tells me.

Apparently you did not seem to understand what I posted.

Tong
R2117

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Nothing.

Mercy is not something one could work for to earn or merit.

Mercy given to one has nothing to do with the others.

Not work for, no. Faith isn't works.

God have mercy on whom He wills.

But the point in that post is that fairness has nothing to do with mercy.

Tong
R2118

 

[Tong2020]

Of course it's mercy. God is the judge of hearts. How is giving mercy to God haters just? They would not accept it anyway.

Mercy is for the offender.

Tong
R2119

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well yes. That is the natural make up of man’s body. But what is spoken in Rev.22:17 does not pertain to the human body.

Nevertheless the same principle applies to spiritual thirst. If you are thirsty, you will drink, will you not?

Not the same for the fallen unregenerate man.

Tong
R2120

 

[justbyfaith]

Not the same for the fallen unregenerate man.

Tong
R2120

Because his thirst gets satisfied with toilet water, so to speak.

But it is never permanently satisfied, as with the living water that is given to us by the Lord.

(John 4:13-14, John 6:35, John 7:37-39)