The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My reference is with scriptures, not reformed theology. It is scriptures that teaches of the good nature of God, that he is just and righteous. He is not unfair. Are you suggesting He is unfair?

Reformed theology most certainly makes God unfair, and also the author of sins!

Excuse me, but I’ll say it again, My reference is with scriptures, not reformed theology.

Tong
R2106

 

[Wrangler]

All we can do is surrender to God

However you want to word it, action on our part is needed - unless universalism prevails.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Excuse me, but I’ll say it again, My reference is with scriptures, not reformed theology.

Tong
R2106

it is your theological twist to the Scriptures that you quote!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
John 5:40, unlike Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, pertains to eternal life, and not earthly life.

here again it is your theology, and not what the Bible says. Have you read what Joshua 24:15 actually says? "And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

SERVE is not just an "earthly" thing as you say, but to do with where one's spiritual heart really is. It is to do with following the Lord with your life, and rendering to Him true Worship. By "serving" other gods or religions, is the same as "serving" the devil, and being one of his. This verse is very clear, that the persons eternal life depends on who they follow.

Yes I read what Joshua 24:15 actually says and in context. Did you consider the context?

<<<This verse is very clear, that the persons eternal life depends on who they follow.>>>

Perhaps, if taken out of context. The choice that Joshua brought to the people to make, in line with context, pertains to earthly life and dwelling in the land, a place on earth, that God had sworn to give to Abraham.

Eternal life is a gift from God. It depends therefore on God, who gives it as a gift, not as one that is earned. It’s not had by man, by means of anything, not even on the choice of man.

Tong
R2107

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Eternal life is a gift from God. It depends therefore on God, who gives it as a gift, not as one that is earned. It’s not had by man, by means of anything, not even on the choice of man.

what is your definition of "gift"? It is usually that something that is "given" to one by another. So, like ALL "gifts", this can be either "accepted" or "rejected", as is very clear from what Jesus says in John 5:39-40, and Paul in Acts 13:46!

 

[justbyfaith]

Regarding Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, those were related not to anything else but to earthly life and dwelling in the land that God had sworn to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Also, it must me realized that God had deals with them as such, having chosen them from among all other peoples of the earth, in line and keeping with His promises to Abraham, and with His purpose in them, of making of them a holy nation and a kingdom of priests.

John 5:40, unlike Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, pertains to eternal life, and not earthly life.

<<<Note, that it was the Jews who REJECTED the Gospel for their salvation, because THEY and NOT God, considered themselves not worthy of eternal life! >>>

The Jews, in general or as a nation, rejected the gospel in ignorance, not knowing who He is, as Paul did too before His conversion. Their rejection is not because they do not consider themselves not worthy of eternal life, but that their rejection of the gospel rendered themselves not worthy of eternal life.

Regarding Rev. 22:17, that while there is a universal invitation, there is a qualification, that is, those who thirst, those who desires. So we ask, who are they who thirst and desires? In my reading, they are those whom the Father had given to the Son (John 6:37,44).

Tong
R2103

It seems to me that anyone who lacks water will be thirsty.

 

[Renniks]

I don’t know why you’re still not seeing it. Let me guess. Perhaps it’s because you think that my view is that God chooses arbitrarily, when I already told you that that isn’t my view. Now, perhaps you can start considering my view, that God choose people for salvation consistent with His nature.

Tong
R2093

What does that even mean?

 

[Renniks]

That’s quite deep. As much as that would be a good subject to discuss, it’s not what I was referring to in my question.

What view I was referring to is your view on God’s salvation or how you are saved. Does your view on that glorify God and not the creature?

Tong
R2094

It's one and the same. God is love therefore he offers love to all. That is my view on salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

However you want to word it, action on our part is needed - unless universalism prevails.

But here’s the problem, the reality of fallen mankind, that EVERY intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth. What action would you suppose could be expected from him? The answer is found all over the history of fallen mankind written and recorded in scriptures for our knowing.

But may I say, God had chosen from among fallen mankind, that He will make a people of His own, and to be His children.

Tong
R2108

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Excuse me, but I’ll say it again, My reference is with scriptures, not reformed theology.

it is your theological twist to the Scriptures that you quote!

By all means, please show the twisting that you accuse me of. Else such is but an empty accusation.

Tong
R2109

 

[Renniks]

that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” And how did God accomplish that? He said to Moses in Exod. 7:3 “ And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.“

Suppose pharaoh had not hardened his heart. God could have still used him to accomplish his purpose without having to strengthen his resolve to resist. God accomplished his plan for his people, but he's not locked into doing it a certain way.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

By all means, please show the twisting that you accuse me of. Else such is but an empty accusation.

Tong
R2109

Joshua 24.15 for starters

 

[Renniks]

understand there in your illustration that you have mercy to the poor. Is that conditional or unconditional? I see that as not conditional.

Well I'm not God. I would be much more inclined to give to those who I thought were more worthy. If someone would just waste what I gave him, I would probably not give it. But God offers love to all and gives to those who sincerely repent. I don't think I would pardon a Hitler even if he did repent.

 

[Renniks]

In my take, the passages you quoted, they really were not written to speak of the mercy of God as being conditional, but more to speak of what mercy God is prepared and willing to give to mankind, especially to the people who are called by His name

Then that's conditional. I believe God loves all. But he has conditions for showing mercy. Because that is what scripture tells me.

 

[Renniks]

Nothing.

Mercy is not something one could work for to earn or merit.

Mercy given to one has nothing to do with the others.

@Renniks

Tong
R2097

Not work for, no. Faith isn't works.

 

[Renniks]

Is that mercy or justice? Would God be wrong to spare them anyway?

Of course it's mercy. God is the judge of hearts. How is giving mercy to God haters just? They would not accept it anyway.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Eternal life is a gift from God. It depends therefore on God, who gives it as a gift, not as one that is earned. It’s not had by man, by means of anything, not even on the choice of man.

what is your definition of "gift"? It is usually that something that is "given" to one by another. So, like ALL "gifts", this can be either "accepted" or "rejected", as is very clear from what Jesus says in John 5:39-40, and Paul in Acts 13:46!

Yes, it is something given, better yet, endowed, and that, freely by the giver, which in regard to eternal life is God.

There are different gifts. But eternal life is unlike the gifts man is familiar with or knows. What gifts man knows and is familiar with are something like that which you say could either be accepted or rejected, such as a car, a house, a box of chocolates, etc. Eternal life is a gift that only God could give. And it is a gift that He gives and is received and had by him to whom He gives it as He gives it, which the recipient neither by his will, accept or reject. It’s like when God gave the breathe of life to Adam, wherein the lifeless Adam had just received as God gave it to him.

In Acts 13:46, it is not the gift of eternal life that they rejected, but the word of God. John 5:39-40 does not talk about rejecting the gift of eternal life either.

Tong
R2110

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Regarding Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, those were related not to anything else but to earthly life and dwelling in the land that God had sworn to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Also, it must me realized that God had deals with them as such, having chosen them from among all other peoples of the earth, in line and keeping with His promises to Abraham, and with His purpose in them, of making of them a holy nation and a kingdom of priests.

John 5:40, unlike Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, pertains to eternal life, and not earthly life.

<<<Note, that it was the Jews who REJECTED the Gospel for their salvation, because THEY and NOT God, considered themselves not worthy of eternal life! >>>

The Jews, in general or as a nation, rejected the gospel in ignorance, not knowing who He is, as Paul did too before His conversion. Their rejection is not because they do not consider themselves not worthy of eternal life, but that their rejection of the gospel rendered themselves not worthy of eternal life.

Regarding Rev. 22:17, that while there is a universal invitation, there is a qualification, that is, those who thirst, those who desires. So we ask, who are they who thirst and desires? In my reading, they are those whom the Father had given to the Son (John 6:37,44).

It seems to me that anyone who lacks water will be thirsty.

Well yes. That is the natural make up of man’s body. But what is spoken in Rev.22:17 does not pertain to the human body.

Tong
R2111

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I don’t know why you’re still not seeing it. Let me guess. Perhaps it’s because you think that my view is that God chooses arbitrarily, when I already told you that that isn’t my view. Now, perhaps you can start considering my view, that God choose people for salvation consistent with His nature.

What does that even mean?

Are you asking what I meant to say by “God chooses people for salvation consistent to His nature”?

Tong
R2112

 

[justbyfaith]

Well yes. That is the natural make up of man’s body. But what is spoken in Rev.22:17 does not pertain to the human body.

Tong
R2111

Nevertheless the same principle applies to spiritual thirst. If you are thirsty, you will drink, will you not?