The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

I agree with you that Christ did not die as a sin offering sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins of all humanity. However you don’t agree that the death of Christ does not only serve as a sin offering but also for other purposes such as it being a sacrifice for atonement for the sins of the whole world.

Tong
R2066

No, No, No Thats why i said you are inconsistent ! Christs death was 100% only for the Elect !

 

[Renniks]

And yet here again is this, bringing calvinism into the conversation when I haven’t, not even once, made any reference to it. Here’s what I will do, I will tell you what I believe regarding predestination:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Is that scriptures or what?

Tong
R2073

I think it's worth noting that all the great theologians down through history had these same verses, and most did not reach the Calvinist conclusion that you do. Perhaps you should read some of the other ways these verses are interpretated.

For example, Wesley's notes:
] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons — Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

According to the good pleasure of his will — According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Knowing what is yet to happen is part of omniscience. You may think you can do that, but that does not mean you can. You may know what you intend to do tomorrow, but such knowledge does not make what will happen tomorrow a certainty. Only God who is omniscient can do that.

You miss the point. I have had calvinists tell me God can only know what he decrees. And since they believe he decrees all, that's what they base his omniscience on. I say God just knows due to being himself.

<<<I say God just knows due to being himself.>>>

The scriptures says that God is omniscient. And because He is timeless (eternal), so is His omniscience.

You told me what you say calvinist told you, that God decrees all. What do you believe regarding that?

Tong
R2074

 

[BarneyFife]

No, No, No Thats why i said you are inconsistent ! Christs death was 100% only for the Elect !

Your god is too small.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I should have emboldened and underlined when we were enemies in Romans 5:10.

Oppositional behavior can be treated. I don't deny Scripture--merely your twisting of it.
And I abhor the way you twist other people's words.

You have provided nothing to invalidate the fact that:
<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

I did not say you deny scriptures. You accuse me of twisting scriptures. I only quoted scriptures, so how could you even accuse me of twisting it?

And you accuse me too of twisting other people’s words. What is it with you? For that again is a false accusation.

<<<You have provided nothing to invalidate the fact that:
<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

I have provided you scriptures (Romans 5:1o) that says otherwise. Unless you don’t take unrepentant sinners as God’s enemies.

Tong
R2075

 

[Renniks]

<<<I say God just knows due to being himself.>>>

The scriptures says that God is omniscient. And because He is timeless (eternal), so is His omniscience.

You told me what you say calvinist told you, that God decrees all. What do you believe regarding that?

Tong
R2074

Obviously I don't believe God decrees everything. Because God says otherwise.

 

[Tong2020]

@Tong2020

So, do you or do you not believe that God preordains people to be lost antagonists (of converted people), destined for eternal torment?

It's a simple question.

Since you seem to not see my answer in the scriptures I gave you as what I believe regarding predestination, my answer to your simple question is a simple no.

Tong
R2076

 

[Tong2020]

No, of course, quoting scripture doesn't make anyone a Calvinist, but it is a lousy dodge to avoid identifying as a Calvinist or not. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. I'm not ashamed nor proud of it.

<<<No, of course, quoting scripture doesn't make anyone a Calvinist,>>>

Right.

<<<but it is a lousy dodge to avoid identifying as a Calvinist or not.>>>

Not in any way a dodge. It’s about what is proper and righteousness. Why would I be identified with someone I did not even make reference to nor talk about? You can identify me with Christ, for besides I told you I am a Christian, I make reference to Him and talked about Him and believe in Him and is only Him that I follow and listen to.

Tong
R2077

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree with you that Christ did not die as a sin offering sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins of all humanity. However you don’t agree that the death of Christ does not only serve as a sin offering but also for other purposes such as it being a sacrifice for atonement for the sins of the whole world.

No, No, No Thats why i said you are inconsistent ! Christs death was 100% only for the Elect !

That’s your opinion of me. But I am not what you say I am.

As I pointed out, the death of Christ did not only provided for the forgiveness of the sins of the elect, but had accomplished more than that.

Tong
R2078

 

[brightfame52]

Your god is too small.

We will see about that on Judgment day friend.

 

[brightfame52]

That’s your opinion of me. But I am not what you say I am.

As I pointed out, the death of Christ did not only provided for the forgiveness of the sins of the elect, but had accomplished more than that.

Tong
R2078

Thats why i said you are inconsistent ! Christs death was 100% only for the Elect !

 

[BarneyFife]

We will see about that on Judgment day friend.

No doubt, you're going to enjoy watching me burn.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And yet here again is this, bringing calvinism into the conversation when I haven’t, not even once, made any reference to it. Here’s what I will do, I will tell you what I believe regarding predestination:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Is that scriptures or what?

I think it's worth noting that all the great theologians down through history had these same verses, and most did not reach the Calvinist conclusion that you do. Perhaps you should read some of the other ways these verses are interpretated.

For example, Wesley's notes:
] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons — Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

According to the good pleasure of his will — According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

I gave you scriptures to consider and you are giving me here Wesley’s notes to consider? I’ll stick with scriptures.

Wesley read and study scriptures. And so do you and I. Wesley believed in God and in Christ and so have the Holy Spirit in him. And so do you and I. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches guides the child of God into all truth. The truth is not settled by you nor by me nor by Wesley. Rather it is the Holy Spirit that settles it in every child of God.

<<<Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons — Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.>>>

That is Wesley’s interpretation. But it does not follow that because that is his interpretation means that that is the correct interpretation. He could be wrong as we all could be. What is clear there is that, the part where he said “that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.“ is not in the context or is out of context and so was not part of what Paul was saying there. I can’t see why Wesley had to inject that thought in the interpretation of that passage.

Tong
R2079

 

[BarneyFife]

<<<No, of course, quoting scripture doesn't make anyone a Calvinist,>>>

Right.

<<<but it is a lousy dodge to avoid identifying as a Calvinist or not.>>>

Not in any way a dodge. It’s about what is proper and righteousness. Why would I be identified with someone I did not even make reference to nor talk about? You can identify me with Christ, for besides I told you I am a Christian, I make reference to Him and talked about Him and believe in Him and is only Him that I follow and listen to.

Tong
R2077

The issue is simple and you've been dancing around it because you love to dispute. You made some remarks that made some people suspect that you are a proponent of Calvinism. And instead of clearing up the matter by simply saying "I'm not a Calvinist," you had to play this game as if you had some honor to protect. You twist Scripture and other people's words all the time. I can't help that you don't see it. You would argue with a fence post. The problem that people have with you is that you dispute what everyone else is saying in 99% of your posts. That is anti-social and very annoying. It is what it is.

Look and see for yourself:
Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<I say God just knows due to being himself.>>>

The scriptures says that God is omniscient. And because He is timeless (eternal), so is His omniscience.

You told me what you say calvinist told you, that God decrees all. What do you believe regarding that?

Obviously I don't believe God decrees everything. Because God says otherwise.

Yes, obviously I was not asking of you disagree with what them calvinist told you. Rather I was asking is if God does not decrees all, what then is it that you believe about what goes on in the world?

Tong
R2080

 

[BarneyFife]

Why would I be identified with someone I did not even make reference to nor talk about?

Examine this question carefully and try to see how feeble a defense it is. Anyone can deny being involved in something in which they are, in fact, involved. And the best way to do it is to avoid using names and labels. All you had to do was say "no," or ignore the questions, but you insisted upon keeping the snowball of contention rolling.

 

[BarneyFife]

Rather it is the Holy Spirit that settles it in every child of God.

Then why don't we agree? Your logic is mayhem. I'm moving on. Time to hit the TRENDING TOPICS button.

 

[Renniks]

That is Wesley’s interpretation. But it does not follow that because that is his interpretation means that that is the correct interpretation. He could be wrong as we all could be. What is clear there is that, the part where he said “that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.“ is not in the context or is out of context and so was not part of what Paul was saying there. I can’t see why Wesley had to inject that thought in the interpretation of that passage.

He's letting scripture interpret scripture IMO. I just used Wesley as an example. The point is that none of us learns in a vacuum and God can use others to teach us things we might miss.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<No, of course, quoting scripture doesn't make anyone a Calvinist,>>>

Right.

<<<but it is a lousy dodge to avoid identifying as a Calvinist or not.>>>

Not in any way a dodge. It’s about what is proper and righteousness. Why would I be identified with someone I did not even make reference to nor talk about? You can identify me with Christ, for besides I told you I am a Christian, I make reference to Him and talked about Him and believe in Him and is only Him that I follow and listen to.

The issue is simple and you've been dancing around it because you love to dispute. You made some remarks that made some people suspect that you are a proponent of Calvinism. And instead of clearing up the matter by simply saying "I'm not a Calvinist," you had to play this game as if you had some honor to protect. You twist Scripture and other people's words all the time. I can't help that you don't see it. You would argue with a fence post. The problem that people have with you is that you dispute what everyone else is saying in 99% of your posts. That is anti-social and very annoying. It is what it is.

Look and see for yourself:
Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

<<<And instead of clearing up the matter by simply saying "I'm not a Calvinist," >>>

I did say I am not a Calvinist and that repeatedly. But to no avail.

<<<The problem that people have with you is that you dispute what everyone else is saying in 99% of your posts.>>>

Well, would you want to keep silent when I see there is something false being said, at least in my view. Do you want me to pretend to not have read something false and do nothing about it? And do you want me to say I agree for every thing that is posted that I agree with? And are suggesting that no one here have any problem with you? Well,...

Tong
R2081

 

[Renniks]

We will see about that on Judgment day friend.

If you are correct, there's a very good chance you will be among the damned. If you are correct perhaps God only decides to pick one guy for salvation. There's no way to know if he's just randomly choosing people.