No authority!

[justbyfaith]

Then you've just illustrated how Scripturally-ignorant you are.

"Necromancy" is not "contact" with the dead. It's about seeking oracles from the dead (Isa. 8:19, Lev. 19:31).
It is trying to glean information FROM them - NOT about asking those in Christ to PRAY FOR you.

And YOU say MY fruit is rotten . . .

Necromancy is in fact contact with the dead.

But take your chances, I have told you the truth about it so your blood is on your own head and no longer on my own.

 

[justbyfaith]

She probably doesn't - but that's the way GOD chose to do it.

That is not how God chose to do it...Mary was a sinner who needed redemption just like the rest of us.

 

[justbyfaith]

And YOU say MY fruit is rotten . . .

I realize that you are offended by my statement...

I just want you to know that it is intended so that you might seek the Lord for the Holy Spirit in order that you might bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit instead of the fruit that you normally bear in front of all of us.

I really am trying to help you.

Problem is, it is most often the person who has the problem who is the last person to realize it so that he can change.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Necromancy is in fact contact with the dead.
But take your chances, I have told you the truth about it so your blood is on your own head and no longer on my own.

Soooo - JESUS practived necromancy at the Transfiguration when He had "contact" with Moses, who DIED??
Time to simply admit that you're just ignorant of what the word means . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is not how God chose to do it...Mary was a sinner who needed redemption just like the rest of us.

Then REFUTE the verses that I presented which compare Mary to the Ark - if you CAN . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

Soooo - JESUS practiced <fify> necromancy at the Transfiguration when He had "contact" with Moses, who DIED??
Time to simply admit that you're just ignorant of what the word means . . .

I'll admit that you have made a good point there.

But I think that Moses was alive when Jesus talked with him.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then REFUTE the verses that I presented which compare Mary to the Ark - if you CAN . . .

I will only say that they are referring to a possible type in scripture but that types do not necessarily qualify as proof.

 

[Behold]

Soooo, you couldn't refute my obliteration of your idiotic claims about kissing statues, eh?

Your water cult teaches that Grace comes from God, through Christ, through Mary, to you.
You sit there and think....>"ok, that is not true" but, i'll argue on the Forum anyway, as, what else can i do".

Well, what you could do, is be honest.
But that's not your position.

See, Your Roman Leader refuted you forever= with his Mary Idolatry.
Need more photos to prove you are lying?
So, Just keep ignoring the reality to suit your deception.
-
-

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, if YOU think the Church was built by sinners and not Christ as Scripture says (Matt. 16:18) - then I'd LOVE to be there when He asks you to give an account for that remark.

Finally - I don't worship an "institution" - I worship God.
I'm simply a member of the Body of Christ, His Church . . .

I don't accept your premise that the institution you worship is the Church Christ established. But you worship the institution don't you? You do whatever the institution says without question right? or no? Are you one of those Catholics that allow yourself the luxury to pick and chose which edict to obey?

 

[Illuminator]

BoL says, " I don't worship an "institution" - I worship God."
CadyandZoe replies with: "I don't accept your premise that the institution you worship is the Church Christ established"

This proves it is impossible to have any logical dialogue with anti-Catholics.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to your standards, no institution on earth, including yours, is qualified to teach. What's so sickening about your rant is pretending the Catholic Church hasn't done anything about it. It WAS the worst crisis in history, we know that. We are more appalled than you are. You don't need to constantly rub poop in our faces over something that no longer exists. You ignore the evidence.

Yes, I have always maintained that each follower of Christ is responsible to obey Christ alone. One is obligated to obey others only in so far as the others are teaching what Christ taught. As the Apostle Paul said in his epistle to the Galatians, "If any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

I have never argued that my institution is better. I don't belong to an institution, and neither do I obey an institution. I am a follower of Christ just as you are, and I worship him only.

I'm glad to hear that some bishops are attempting to clean things up. But that isn't the point here. Christ never intended to mediate his authority through an institution, especially since it was an institution that murdered him on the cross.

You interpret my argument as hatred for the Catholic Church, which is unfortunate because that is not my intent at all. But that is understandable since most people interpret criticism as hatred. Facing the truth can be very painful, especially when the painful truth cuts to the bone.

Hopefully honest Christians will someday come to realize that "institutional authority" is the great evil that plagues our time. Those running the institution, whether we are talking about religious institutions or government institutions, are nothing more than bureaucrats, forcing everyone to obey edicts that they, themselves are unwilling to follow.

Hopefully, someday, you will come to realize the error of your commitment to the religious institution you defend.

To begin, stop getting caught in the "we/they" trap, which holds you in it's grip like a snake. This trap allows you to keep the question at arm's length where it can not harm you or cause you pain. Don't fall for that trick. Face the truth and be free of your enslavement. Don't side with the "cover-uppers", those in within the institution that protect the institution at all costs, trying to hide illicit activity rather than facing it in the manner Christ commanded. To protect the institution at all costs is to deify the institution and those who remain in the institution are worshippers of the god they created.

Stop making excuses and face the truth.

 

[Illuminator]

Your water cult teaches that Grace comes from God, through Christ, through Mary, to you.
You sit there and think....>"ok, that is not true" but, i'll argue on the Forum anyway, as, what else can i do".

Well, what you could do, is be honest.
But that's not your position.

See, Your Roman Leader refuted you forever= with his Mary Idolatry.
Need more photos to prove you are lying?
So, Just keep ignoring the reality to suit your deception.
-
-
View attachment 13879

I would contend that very few people are so stupid as to think that a wooden crucifix or plaster statue of Christ is Christ Himself, and to be worshiped. They are simply devotional aids, to help concentrate one’s mind on God, just as virtually all Christians would accept painted portraits of Jesus as pious items that help us reflect on our wonderful Lord and Savior and what He has done for us, making it possible to be saved from our sins and go to heaven one day.

In the case of statues of saints, they help us honor or venerate them, which is a separate discussion. So this criticism would apply to so few people as to be miniscule and virtually an irrelevant concern: one in a thousand profoundly ignorant and nominal Catholics, if even that many.
Newsflash!: Catholicism Utterly Opposes Idolatry, Too | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)
STUPID PEOPLE THINK THAT PRAYER OR VENERATION STOPS AT WOOD OR PLASTER. That includes stupid Catholics, outnumbered by stupid anti-Catholics who are too proud to be corrected.

 

[Illuminator]

Yes, I have always maintained that each follower of Christ is responsible to obey Christ alone. One is obligated to obey others only in so far as the others are teaching what Christ taught. As the Apostle Paul said in his epistle to the Galatians, "If any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

I have never argued that my institution is better. I don't belong to an institution, and neither do I obey an institution. I am a follower of Christ just as you are, and I worship him only.

I'm glad to hear that some bishops are attempting to clean things up. But that isn't the point here. Christ never intended to mediate his authority through an institution, especially since it was an institution that murdered him on the cross.

You interpret my argument as hatred for the Catholic Church, which is unfortunate because that is not my intent at all. But that is understandable since most people interpret criticism as hatred. Facing the truth can be very painful, especially when the painful truth cuts to the bone.

Hopefully honest Christians will someday come to realize that "institutional authority" is the great evil that plagues our time. Those running the institution, whether we are talking about religious institutions or government institutions, are nothing more than bureaucrats, forcing everyone to obey edicts that they, themselves are unwilling to follow.

Hopefully, someday, you will come to realize the error of your commitment to the religious institution you defend.

To begin, stop getting caught in the "we/they" trap, which holds you in it's grip like a snake. This trap allows you to keep the question at arm's length where it can not harm you or cause you pain. Don't fall for that trick. Face the truth and be free of your enslavement. Don't side with the "cover-uppers", those in within the institution that protect the institution at all costs, trying to hide illicit activity rather than facing it in the manner Christ commanded. To protect the institution at all costs is to deify the institution and those who remain in the institution are worshippers of the god they created.

Stop making excuses and face the truth.

Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem, was an institution, starting off as a disorganized rabble. Peter, James, John, together with the Apostles and elders, formed an institution we call the Magisterium. They reached a decision binding on the universal Church. Scripture does not say that after that, there would never be any more controversies. If not for the institution of the Magisterium in the 3rd and 4th centuries, we would all be Arians and there would be no Bible. Your anti-institution no authority mentality is self defeating and illogical.

Some consider the Catholic Church as a spiritual institution founded for a spiritual purpose – and only that. And I recall Josef Stalin’s quip to French Prime Minister Pierre Laval in 1935: “The Pope! How many divisions has he got?” (as quoted in Winston Churchill, The Second World War, 1948), which was purposeful sarcasm to point out how on earth a spiritual institution could do anything to help thwart the escalating military threat of Nazism.

But the Catholic Church is more than a spiritual institution. Apparently using “the strategy of non-coercive power” (Deus Vult: The Geopolitics of the Catholic Church, 2010), the Church runs 5,500 hospitals, 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, with 65 percent of them located in underdeveloped and developing countries.​

Catholic Church: World’s biggest charitable organization (inquirer.net)

None of this would be possible without being an institution. Any church that runs an inner city soup kitchen must be an institution in order to function. Demonizing all institutions the way you do is regression at its worst.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem, was an institution, starting off as a disorganized rabble. Peter, James, John, together with the Apostles and elders, formed an institution we call the Magisterium. Scripture does not say that after that, there would never be any more controversies. If not for the institution of the Magisterium in the 3rd and 4th centuries, we would all be Arians and there would be no Bible. Your anti-institution mentality is self defeating and illogical.

The so-called Council of Jerusalem was not an institution and it was not the basis of the Magisterium. Have you not read Galatians chapter 2, where Paul argues that "what they were makes no difference to me", indicating that he did not conference with an authoritarian body, but fellow believers who all share the same truth? The true authority is the original message, not a person or a council other than Jesus Christ himself.

In a sense, you are correct. The Catholic Church "protected" the Bible, burying it in the ground for safe keeping like the man in Matthew 25:25. Rather than treating other people and especially other believers with mutual respect, they considered themselves to be "not like other men" (Luke:18-11) A true representative of Jesus Christ, being granted power and authority to rule over Europe, would have taught the people to read and to translate the Bible into their native tongue; but instead, the Catholic church forbade anyone from reading the Bible in a language other than Latin, and supported the aristocracy in their delusion that they had the divine right to keep the surfs in the dark and slaves in their lands.

I'm not impressed by your argument concerning the Magisterium, however, since I could care less about false teaching. I am impressed by the fact that God preserved the Bible down through history in light of the many wars, plagues, and famine that took place. I am impressed by those who translated the Bible into many languages and by those who spent the many years teaching other people how to read. I am impressed by those who teach others to think for themselves and the courage to live according to that conviction. It takes real courage and dedication to allow others the room and space to explore the depths of the knowledge of Christ without enforcing strict obedience to self-declared authorities.

 

[Taken]

The idea that we "worship" Mary - or anybody other than God is just another anti-Catholic lie.
Don't be so gullible.
The Catechism is online - see for yourself: Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment

As for Dulia and Hyperdullia - NONE of that is about "worship". It's about veneration.
And if you were honest, there are people here on earth that YOU venerate -

It's about veneration.

Yes agree.
From a very young age Catholics are "taught" to "venerate" Mary.

Your man-made churches;

With little children eyes watching...
With little children's ears hearing...
- The man in the long robe is their "father".
- The man in Rome, who travels and is seen before great crowds, with a tall hat, white robe, and ring of a king, is their "Holy father".
- The statues; bow down, worship, kiss, this idol.
- Repeat, Repeat, Repeat; Mary, Mary, Mary-
In the church, OVER and OVER ...
-Then go home, Repeat, Repeat, Repeat;
Mary, Mary, Mary
-PRAY to Mary, that SHE will intercede on your behalf, and Take all your prayers to God.
-PRAY over and over for every Sin you "commit", Mary will intercede...and
-Repeatedly go to your "church Catholic appointed father", to get absolution, your repeated committed sins "are" forgiven.
- Long for the day, you might get to see, "your Roman "Holy father", and better yet, if you can be BEFORE "Him, your "Holy father", bow unto him, kiss his ring, BE blessed by him...
"Mary, Mary, Mary...
hail, hail, hail...
statue, beads, trinkets...
bow, bow, bow...
kiss, kiss, kiss...
holy, holy, holy...
pray, pray, pray...
hear me, hear me, hear me...
Oh "mother of god"...
intercede, intercede, intercede...
Repeat, Repeat, Repeat..."

Veneration? Yes. The FULL "gambit" of WHAT
VENERATION "MEANS"!

Venerate, revere, reverence, worship, and adore all mean to honor and admire profoundly and respectfully.

Scripture...

Matt 15:
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother...

How?

Eph 6:
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

Jesus, Son of man, honored his Earthly mother.
Jesus, Word of God, has no mother.

Honor is one thing...
Veneration includes honor and a whole host of other things, mankind WAS NOT Scripturally TAUGHT to Apply to other Humans.

FYI- Mary is a human, was naturally born from the corrupt seed of man, a Jew, faithful to God, a Virgin, Betrothed to a man of the House of David, and a highly favored candidate, to be chosen to receive the Word of God, sent forth out from Gods Mouth, in a Body God prepared, to be revealed to the world, in the LIKENESS as a man, searching out LOST JEWS (who had STOP worshiping God...making statues and idols, VENERATING (people and things), bowing and praying to people and things...other than the Heavenly God.
Gods Word, Jesus came forth From Gods Mouth, IN the LIKENESS AS A MAN...
To TEACH Corrupt men OF the Earth;
"HOW TO BE IN GODS ...LIKENESS"!!!

And FYI- the HOW TO...is ALL About Jesus...
"NOT Mary".

The Honor, AND Calling on, Praying To, Exalting, Reverence, Bowing to, Holiness, Intercession, Glory, Worship IS ALL ABOUT...
JESUS.

Putting MARY in A place of "veneration" and teaching little children to "venerate" Mary...is not Scriptural.

Mary was given Honor by Jesus.
Mary is blessed Among WOMEN.
Mary is "remembered" for her Service unto God;
Same as Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Job, others AND Gods Word Jesus IS "Remembered", AS Models and Examples "pleasing" unto God.

Yes...many clearly "SEE, HEAR, KNOW, Catholics Teach, Do, Advocate and Promote ;
Veneration of Mary"...

And many Adamantly DISAGREE, with a Catholics, Teaching, Doing, Advocacy, Promoting TO: Venerate Mary.


If ^ THAT is a bother to you...THAT is Your "bother"...Not a "bother" of those who Disagree with you.

You have been duped by men.
Scripture Highlight is About;
The holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty;
And How Corrupt Earthly mankind, can become MADE, Acceptably accounted worthy to BE Claimed as a son of God...
BY and Through Christ the Lord Jesus.

The WAY IS Simple;
Put away man's False teaching.
Pick up a Bible;
Learn the Truth;
Accept Gods Truth;
And God shall Accept you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Uhhhh - YOU may be a "deep reader" - but you're a DISHONEST one.

I never said that Luke 1:28 says we're supposed to "worsip" Mary. In fact - I've posted SEVERAL times now that the Church has ALWAYS taught that we are ONLY wo worship GOD. I also posted the Catechism link for this Catholic teaching THREE TIMES.
So - enough with the falsehoods huh?

Soooo - how many does that make now that I've exposed on this thread who have had to resort to LYING instead of simply debating?
You guys are too predictable . . .

Here's a couple of verses for you:
Exod. 20:16 . . .
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

You not knowing the definition of worship does not make us liars.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The real question is why don’t you worship God?

you have no altar
No sacrifice
No propitiation
No reparation
No candles, incense,
No offering

We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat. Hebrews 13:10

 

[Taken]

thru our lady of Guadalupe 9 million came to faith in Christ and Mexico is still 95 percent Christian care to explain that!

9 million People "came to Faith"...because someone declared "they" SAW a vision of a dead "woman"?

Faith is a Gift from God...and great IF millions of people "have received Gods Gift of Faith"...

Read Scriptures...Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing the Word of God.

Is the "Word of God"... Believe men that proclaim they saw a vision of a dead woman?


Mary in her Earthly Flesh Life did not go about Preaching among the People, Jesus is the Christ.
That was NOT her role IN her living Flesh...but that is her role in Dead Flesh?

Scripture teaches no such thing.
Scripture in fact teaches to Not Attempt to counjour up the Dead or be fooled by Appritions of the Dead.

Beware of Demons, who can Appear as the Dead.
Beware of WHAT and WHY one claims to have Faith.

And so now...these millions have Faith in Jesus...BY and Through Belief and Veneration of MARY?

Are you aware of how Millions (as I have talked with many and their concensous opinion)...
Its Praise and worship TO Mary.
If their "parents are Catholic", they were born Catholic!
They have all the Mary statues, The Beads, The Rosery, the candles, the incense... and repeat, repeat, repeat...prayers TO Mary...to be forgiven of SINS they commit OVER and over.
They go to church, fill the pews on Festive Holidays...and maybe otherwise go occasionally.
The Pope is their "Holy Father".
And IF the Pope bows and kisses statues representing Mary and Venerates Mary...so do they.

Teaching a Lie, turns the Truth into a Lie.
Gentile Men preaching, teaching, advocating, promoting ... "MAKING" a host of Gentiles
To exalt and venerate Mary...
is Not Scriptural, Not the Word of God.
Is DUPING men.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Creepy.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This proves it is impossible to have any logical dialogue with anti-Catholics.

There is a great wall between Catholics and non-Catholics, and it's there for a reason. You're wasting your time here. You're not going to win anybody here.