The Calvinist system is foreign to Gospel truth. It is essentially "another gospel" -- a false gospel. Any group that blatantly denies that Christ died for the sins of the whole world is presenting false doctrine, no matter how it has been *doctored up*.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
What kept you from dying the first time you sinned?
You didn't purposely leave out John 1:29, did you?
It is a matter of distinction between common grace and saving grace.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 36:26
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
The promise of God already involves a miracle, i.e. changing a heart from stone to flesh. Paul is arguing why God is not unjust for applying that miracle to a select few rather than each and every one of Jacob's descendants.
We could extrapolate that point to the rest of humanity. If God plans to miraculously change some rebels into genuine, true believers, why doesn't he do that for every human being?
Why does the Bible speak about election?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
In the context of Romans 9, Paul is addressing God's many promises to Israel that he would save the entire nation. One such place this promise is found is in the New Covenant declaration given by Jeremiah. At some point in Jeremiah's history "they will all know me." This being the case, Paul needs to explain why God has not applied the New Covenant promise to each and every person in Israel.
The promise is not only a national promise, it is a promise that effects each and every person in that nation, "from the least of them to the greatest of them." Paul is preaching that the New Covenant is in effect and has been in effect since the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. If this is the case, then someone needs to explain why some Israelites remain hardened. Thus, Paul spends three entire chapters on the subject.
I am focused on his second point (the first point is that the covenant belongs to them as a people) that while the promise is made to the nation as a whole, God reserves the right, as creator, to pick and chose which individuals to bless: Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, etc. One is unable to have his heart of stone removed and a heart of flesh put in its place. This only God can do, and he choses whom to bless. The free-will of man does not enter in to it, which is why he says "it does not depend on the man who wills." A rebellious sinner is not going to respond to the call and seek Christ to be his or her personal savior without God first softening the heart.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Roman 9 is Paul responding to the question, has God made a mistake choosing Israel, since Israel rejected the messiah sent to them. Why did God make such a mistake...
if we interpret it in this way it makes total sense when we read.
the Bible speaks of election because it gives god credit, and gives us security.
But Roman 9 is not about our election, Romans 11 is about God keeping his promise to israel, in the end he keeps his promises even after they rejected him
Of course, but no one is forced to submit to God's softening of their heart. Even using the word "Rebellious" insinuates that the person has the opportunity to submit to God, otherwise, what is he rebelling against? Jesus said he would draw all men to himself. Not some men. But not all men submits to his drawing.
Christ Intercession is for all that He died for !
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
One of the many blessings that Christ death secured for all them He died for is His Present Intercession for them to God, premised solely upon His Blood shed for them.
All that Christ died for would be born in sin, but God would have to deliver them all, and this is ensured by Christ being in Heaven making intercession for them.
Remember, He gave Himself for us [ The elect] in order that He would deliver us from this present evil world according to Gods will Gal 1:4-5
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To their shame, many today do not believe that Christ Intercession is effective, in that they believe, many for whom Christ gave himself for, and is now presently interceding for, will yet perish in their sins .how frightening.
What they fail to realize, is that Christ Intercession ensures for every sinner He died for, a Divine Intervention in their lives delivering them from sin and converting them unto God..
This was vividly demonstrated in the intervention in the Life of the apostle Paul when he was on the road to Damascus.
The effects of the Intercession of Christ for those He died is bringing them to God by Him Heb 7:25
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Their coming to God is evidence of He having saved them to the uttermost and His Intercession for them.
So, for you who believe that there are some to perish in their sins for whom Christ died and rose, you discredit the value of His redeeming blood, and His Intercession is ineffectual. because of your insistence that mans freewill determines these outcomes.139
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
One of the many blessings that Christ death secured for all them He died for is His Present Intercession for them to God, premised solely upon His Blood shed for them.
All that Christ died for would be born in sin, but God would have to deliver them all, and this is ensured by Christ being in Heaven making intercession for them.
Remember, He gave Himself for us [ The elect] in order that He would deliver us from this present evil world according to Gods will Gal 1:4-5
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To their shame, many today do not believe that Christ Intercession is effective, in that they believe, many for whom Christ gave himself for, and is now presently interceding for, will yet perish in their sins .how frightening.
What they fail to realize, is that Christ Intercession ensures for every sinner He died for, a Divine Intervention in their lives delivering them from sin and converting them unto God..
This was vividly demonstrated in the intervention in the Life of the apostle Paul when he was on the road to Damascus.
The effects of the Intercession of Christ for those He died is bringing them to God by Him Heb 7:25
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Their coming to God is evidence of He having saved them to the uttermost and His Intercession for them.
So, for you who believe that there are some to perish in their sins for whom Christ died and rose, you discredit the value of His redeeming blood, and His Intercession is ineffectual. because of your insistence that mans freewill determines these outcomes.139
And you discredit the Gospel by claiming that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. His intercession is totally effectual for all his saints. But that does not change the fact that Christ offers the gift of eternal life freely to all who believe on Him.
Does believing in Calvinism automatically make a person of God's elect?
If someone believes in Calvinism but the reality is that they are not of the elect, then their very belief excludes them from the kingdom of heaven in such a way that they cannot enter in.
Thus in believing in Calvinism they oppose themselves and are in fact condemning themselves.
If someone believes in Calvinism but the reality is that they are not of the elect, then their very belief excludes them from the kingdom of heaven in such a way that they cannot enter in.
Thus in believing in Calvinism they oppose themselves and are in fact condemning themselves.
Not at all. You, on the other hand, have a very poor grasp of Gospel Truth and Bible Truth. You are enmeshed in a cultic gospel which has no basis in Scripture.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
No, I'm not. God has shown me how to understand some of the key words that bring enlightenment, and writing styles that show what are parallels, and what are contrasts. When you know these things from a passion to want to know what God means by what He says, you won't be confused either.
Lets see if you are "confused" or not. Do you believe 1 John 1:8 and 10 are describing a BORN AGAIN Christian? Before you answer, try to understand using the writing styles of the Jewish apostles, not in our western understanding - (Greek).
Last edited:
In 1 John 1:8, the apostle includes himself in those he describes as deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them, if they say that they have no sin.
He is in effect saying, if you or I say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
So, if I say that I do have sin, is this necessarily a reason why I cannot walk in holiness or is it a demonic doctrine that is conducive to a man sinning in this life?
The reality is that while we have sin dwelling in our mortal flesh, and this is not eradicated when we come to Christ or even when we are sanctified wholly, so that we would be without sin or sinless; the reality is that indwelling sin, in the sanctified believer, is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over his behaviour (Romans 6:14).
So then, we have sin; but the sin that indwells us does not have to be the controlling factor in our lives. For it is also written,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
In the NLT,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
He is in effect saying, if you or I say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
So, if I say that I do have sin, is this necessarily a reason why I cannot walk in holiness or is it a demonic doctrine that is conducive to a man sinning in this life?
The reality is that while we have sin dwelling in our mortal flesh, and this is not eradicated when we come to Christ or even when we are sanctified wholly, so that we would be without sin or sinless; the reality is that indwelling sin, in the sanctified believer, is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over his behaviour (Romans 6:14).
So then, we have sin; but the sin that indwells us does not have to be the controlling factor in our lives. For it is also written,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
In the NLT,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Okay, now add verse 6. God is light (5), so if we SAY that we have God who is light, but walk in darkness, do we really have God? Bf, I'm trying to help you see that John is making a contrast here. Verse 9 is the key to walking in the light. The person in verse 6 has never repented. And all of us were born with sin. To say, as in verse 10 that we were not born with sin, then we don't know we need to repent; that we don't need Christ.
Verse 8 applies to people like Mosaic Law Jews who say they don't sin, just because the keep the Law, so they don't need to confess the sins, but be as the Pharisee in the temple watching the publican and mocking him.
Verse 8 also applies to Gnostics that John describes in the same book, chapter 4:1-3. They do not believe their sins of the flesh are actually condemning sins, but that the only condemning sins are of the Spirit stemming from denying Christ came in the flesh, but only Spirit, thus grace abound all the more if they willfully sin in the flesh daily - the more the better. For the Nicolaitans of Revelation 2, that was actually in the form of raping each others wives daily.
A form of this second belief was actually resurrected in the Reformation. You may be all too familiar with it. That sins of the flesh cannot separate us from God, as long as our spirit accepts Christ.
I know you are going to pull the "we" card, but that would be foolish. John is teaching his congregation which is a MIXTURE of saved and unsaved, thus the all inclusive present tense "we." John is their teacher. But the context of the whole book MUST be studied. Chapter 3 says a born again Christian does not willfully commit sins of lawlessness (a sin unto death). Chapter 5 shows there are two types of sins: sins unto death, and sins not unto death. Put them all together in one mind-opening context and you will find that 1:7 is a person walking in the light, but we find his sins are forgiven. What sins? Sins not unto death. And what are they. They are unintentional sins found in the Lord's Prayer. And how are they cleansed? By the two verses following the Lords Prayer, Matthew 6:14-15 - forgiving those who trespass against us. And what is a trespass that is not a sin unto death? Leviticus 5:15 - an unintentional sin.
I know you are in a contrary debating mood, but instead, study this. Also see that our tutor showed that there was a sacrifice (an Advocate) for unintentional sins, Numbers 15:22-29; but NO sacrifice (no Advocate) for sins unto death, Numbers 15:30-36. Jesus doesn't cover our sins. He TAKES AWAY all our past sins, 2 Peter. 1:9 and replacing the cause of them, our old nature, by making a new nature separated from the old, and giving us His own Spirit to now only walk in the new nature that doesn't willfully sin. But, yes, we can still commit trespasses, but as long as we grow in the fruit of the Spirit and live in forgiveness, those are constantly being cleansed. But trespasses are still not what 1:8 is talking about, but living in false Gnostic type teachings. When you understand all this, all scripture will fall into place. I promise.
cc: @brightfame52
Last edited:
Similar threads
