Is it possible that God changed Lucifer and angels in order to test mankind?

[K9Buck]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

 

[K9Buck]

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

 

[quietthinker]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

No

 

[Stumpmaster]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Hi K9Buck,

• Fruit

There are a number of guidelines we should follow when applying Scripture. The context of a verse or passage is always something to be given close attention to. In the verse you quote the context is being aware of false prophets, who of course are not really prophets at all and do not produce what real prophets produce.

Mat 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (16) You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (17) Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

• From Lucifer to Satan

Lucifer was made perfect but became evil, not because God changed Him as you suggest, but because he chose to oppose God and thereby became Satan, the Adversary.

• Key Verse: Isaiah14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart".
• Key Point: It wasn't God that spoke to prompt Lucifer in the way described.

Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

• Biblical Principle: God knows what evils will arise but does not cause anyone to be sinful.
• Cross Reference: Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:

Eze 28:15-17 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

[Stumpmaster]

The creation of Lucifer was a necessary evil. If existence is all good and only good, then all people would only be capable of performing good deeds. There would be no sin. This would be bad and God knew He could not create a universe wherein it was impossible to commit evil

Hi Matt,
I notice you do not provide Scriptural support for your view. As mentioned in Ezekiel 28:15, Lucifer wasn't created evil, so I would rephrase the sentence "the creation of Lucifer was a necessary evil" to "the entrance of evil into Creation was inevitable".

Strange that anyone would think a Universe without sin would be bad, since the Genesis account describes the Universe and everything in it as good prior to the Fall.

Romans 8:20-21 gives us the answer to why God allows evil to run its course.
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

• Three Points Of Order

Firstly, God always knows everything that is knowable so He has always known the who, what, when, where, how, how many, how much, and why of His opposition. From this we can deduce that God knew opposition to Him would be inevitable. It was always a factor God was aware of.

Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.

Thirdly, it is possible from Scripture to perceive that the so-called "original sin" was not Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit, but was Satan's opposing of God's Will in deceiving Eve with lies that contradicted God's instruction to them.

 

[quietthinker]

The creation of Lucifer was a necessary evil. If existence is all good and only good, then all people would only be capable of performing good deeds. There would be no sin. This would be bad and God knew He could not create a universe wherein it was impossible to commit evil. The world was like this before the Fall of humankind, back in the Garden humans were not capable of committing sin. Humans were only able to follow God blindly, without the Knowledge of good and evil. God does not want automatons as followers; God had such automatons (without free will) before the Fall - the lower animals are not capable of committing sin (even when they have sex without consent it is not deemed to be rape; even when animals kill other animals it is not deemed to be murder). Sin is not sin without the knowledge of good and evil - unconscious automatons, like the lower animals, are sinless, despite their acts appearing to be sinful acts. This is what it is like to exist in a world without sin - there is no free will. Even in Heaven, Lucifer and his angels were capable of committing sin because they already possessed the knowledge of good and evil. We will be like the angels, even greater than the angels, because of the creation of Lucifer, his rebellion and his leading humans astray (temporarily) - free to choose to follow God or rebel against God; and yet we choose God.

your imagination is outstanding Matt.

 

[K9Buck]

Hi K9Buck,

• Fruit

There are a number of guidelines we should follow when applying Scripture. The context of a verse or passage is always something to be given close attention to. In the verse you quote the context is being aware of false prophets, who of course are not really prophets at all and do not produce what real prophets produce.

Mat 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (16) You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (17) Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

• From Lucifer to Satan

Lucifer was made perfect but became evil, not because God changed Him as you suggest, but because he chose to oppose God and thereby became Satan, the Adversary.

• Key Verse: Isaiah14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart".
• Key Point: It wasn't God that spoke to prompt Lucifer in the way described.

Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

• Biblical Principle: God knows what evils will arise but does not cause anyone to be sinful.
• Cross Reference: Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:

Eze 28:15-17 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Thank you.

 

[K9Buck]

Hi Matt,
I notice you do not provide Scriptural support for your view. As mentioned in Ezekiel 28:15, Lucifer wasn't created evil, so I would rephrase the sentence "the creation of Lucifer was a necessary evil" to "the entrance of evil into Creation was inevitable".

Strange that anyone would think a Universe without sin would be bad, since the Genesis account describes the Universe and everything in it as good prior to the Fall.

Romans 8:20-21 gives us the answer to why God allows evil to run its course.
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

• Three Points Of Order

Firstly, God always knows everything that is knowable so He has always known the who, what, when, where, how, how many, how much, and why of His opposition. From this we can deduce that God knew opposition to Him would be inevitable. It was always a factor God was aware of.

Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.

Thirdly, it is possible from Scripture to perceive that the so-called "original sin" was not Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit, but was Satan's opposing of God's Will in deceiving Eve with lies that contradicted God's instruction to them.

Very interesting. Thank you.