SinSinSin

[Ferris Bueller]

Because it was evading answering the simple question. He knows it, I know it and now you know it! The law is the law and phony spirituality doesn't excuse him from false piety.

I thought he made it clear that for the New Covenant believer 'keeping' the law does not mean literally keeping every single command. Some laws are literally kept by the believer. Other laws no longer need literal keeping, but are fulfilled, not broken, nonetheless. All of the law of Moses is upheld by faith in Christ. Faith in Christ does not destroy or break the law of Moses. The early Catholic Church is the one who cast down the law of Moses. We Protestants remain influenced by their ignorance of the law and it's place in the New Covenant.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Ronald Nolette My mind often goes to Hebrews 7: verse 12 shows the law was changed; verse 19 shows that what we now have is better than the law.

The Levitical priesthood and all the laws associated with it are laid aside. They don't get broken and cast down and trampled on by the coming of Christ. They just aren't needed anymore because Christ has accomplished completely and forever what they sought to do for us (but couldn't). For the believer, God sees no outstanding debt of law concerning the Levitical system of worship even though they have been laid aside and we don't literally do them anymore. The work of Christ fulfills any and all obligations for worship that the Levitical system demanded. And so those laws are not utterly cast away and broken by the believer, with the approval of God, as the church teaches and believes.

 

[Waiting on him]

@marks, are you learning anything?

 

[BarneyFife]

And this is a discussion forum based on answering questions.

I've never read that rule.

 

[farouk]

Not according to scripture.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why does the law bother you so much?

Psalm 19:7-8 KJVS
[7] The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. [8] The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The law of the LORD is:
1. Perfect.
2. Sure.
3. Right.
4. Pure.

It converts the soul.

It makes the simple wise.

It rejoices the heart.

It enlightens the eyes.

This is why Christ did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

I wonder why many Christians today want to destroy something Christ came to fulfill?

No wonder many Christians are not Converted nor Wise; they have:

Hosea 8:3 ...cast off the thing that is good

The law was changed; and what we now have is better than the law. (Hebrews 7.12; 7.19.)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law was changed; and what we now have is better than the law. (Hebrews 7.12; 7.19.)

And yet God sees the 'new and better' as a fulfillment of the law of Moses, not as something that competes with or demolishes the law of Moses.

Look at this....

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What Passover, and what Festival of Unleavened Bread is he talking about? The Mosaic ones, of course. We 'keep' those laws, not a 'new' law, in the new way of Faith in Christ, and walking in the Spirit, not the old way of the literal letter of the law. Faith in Christ applies the Sacrifice of Jesus to us so that God looks at us and says, "I see no outstanding debt of law concerning the requirement for a Mosaic Passover". And when we walk in the Spirit in obedience to God, summarized in the Mosaic command to 'love your neighbor as yourself', God looks at us and says, "I find no outstanding debt of law concerning the Mosaic requirement to rid one's house of leaven" (remember, leaven is a type and shadow of sin).

The Mosaic laws of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread which immediately follows it find their fulfillment in Christ, not their destruction as the church teaches. God even saying we've met the obligations of the Mosaic law. A changed law, yes, with stipulations for a different Priesthood and Sacrifice. But a totally new and different law? No.

 

[farouk]

And yet God sees the 'new and better' as a fulfillment of the law of Moses, not as something that competes with or demolishes the law of Moses.

Look at this....

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What Passover, and what Festival of Unleavened Bread is he talking about? The Mosaic ones, of course. We 'keep' those laws (not a 'new' law) in the new way of Faith in Christ, and walking in the Spirit. Faith in Christ applies the Sacrifice of Jesus to us so that God looks at us and says, "I see no debt of law concerning the requirement for a Mosaic Passover". And when we walk in the Spirit in obedience to God, summarized in the Mosaic command to 'love your neighbor as yourself', God looks at us and says, "I find no debt of law concerning the Mosaic requirement to rid one's house of leaven" (remember, leaven is a type and shadow of sin).

The Mosaic laws of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread which immediately follows it find their fulfillment in Christ, not their destruction as the church teaches. God even saying we've met the obligations of the Mosaic law. A changed law, yes. A totally new and different law? No.

The Lord's Supper is not the Mosaic passover.

I am without the camp, bearing his reproach. I belong among the carcasses of the dead animals disposed of outside the camp. Hebrews 13. This is where the Lord Jesus is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Lord's Supper is not the Mosaic passover.

I am without the camp, bearing his reproach. I belong among the carcasses of the dead animals disposed of outside the camp. Hebrews 13. This is where the Lord Jesus is.

Didn't you read the verses I posted? It plainly said Christ is our Passover Lamb. You don't have to be aware of the fact that Christ is your Passover Lamb (in fulfillment of the law of Moses) for it to be true. If you have placed your faith in Christ you have sacrificed the body and blood of Christ by faith and no longer have any outstanding debt of law regarding a Mosaic Passover observance. So you can stop doing it. God marks your account for that Mosaic requirement 'satisfied'. God accepts the blood and body of Jesus as the fulfillment of that requirement, even if you don't understand that. Christ fulfilled that requirement of the law of Moses for you. He did not cast it down for you. He said he did not come to do that. He said he came to fulfill the law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am without the camp, bearing his reproach. I belong among the carcasses of the dead animals disposed of outside the camp. Hebrews 13. This is where the Lord Jesus is.

But anyway, yes, Christ is also the accepted keeping and fulfillment of the Mosaic Day of Atonement too. God looks at the believer and says of that requirement of the law of Moses, "I see no outstanding debt of law regarding the Day of Atonement". And so he marks the account of that believer 'satisfied' in regard to the requirement to 'keep' the Day of Atonement. He did that when you placed your faith in him, whether you realize it or not. He did it for you. And because he did it, completely and perfectly, and forever, you don't have to perform the literal letter of the law concerning the Day of Atonement. It's already been done for you. You don't need to seek to do what has already been done for you through Christ. He didn't demolish the Mosaic requirement for you (as the church teaches). He satisfied it.

 

[Waiting on him]

The Lord's Supper is not the Mosaic passover.

I am without the camp, bearing his reproach. I belong among the carcasses of the dead animals disposed of outside the camp. Hebrews 13. This is where the Lord Jesus is.

Mt Zion.

we seem to have a lot of Hebrews on this forum.

 

[farouk]

Mt Zion.

we seem to have a lot of Hebrews on this forum.

@Waiting on him It is a truly amazing epistle; and the word "better" is a keyword...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Waiting on him It is a truly amazing epistle; and the word "better" is a keyword...

No question about it. Christ is a better way to meet the Mosaic requirements for Sabbath Rest, circumcision, Festival observance, etc. But that new and better way is still the 'keeping' of the law of Moses nonetheless, not the demolishing of the law of Moses (as the church teaches). He said he did not come to do that, but to fulfill.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The law was changed; and what we now have is better than the law. (Hebrews 7.12; 7.19.)

The change is that God put his laws in our minds and wrote them on our hearts.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

@Ronald Nolette here’s more regarding your inquiry:

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Mt Zion.

we seem to have a lot of Hebrews on this forum.

I hope you're not suggesting that believing that Christ is the keeping and fulfillment of the very law of Moses, not the destruction of the law of Moses, makes one a 'Hebrew'. I think I'm making it plain that we don't have to literally keep the letter of the law of Moses in regard to these things to accomplish what Christ has already accomplished for us, perfectly and forever, through his Priesthood and Sacrifice. Another example being, I don't have to satisfy the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest through the literal way of Moses' law because I'm already in Sabbath Rest in Christ. We don't have to try to accomplish what is already accomplished for us through our faith in Christ. That's a setting aside of the law of Moses, not a breaking and destruction and casting away of the law of Moses as the church teaches.

 

[Waiting on him]

I hope you're not suggesting that believing that Christ is the keeping and fulfillment of the very law of Moses, not the destruction of the law of Moses, makes one a 'Hebrew'. I think I'm making it plain that we don't have to literally keep the letter of the law of Moses in regard to these things to accomplish what Christ has already accomplished for us, perfectly and forever, through his Priesthood and Sacrifice. Another example being, I don't have to satisfy the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest through the literal way of Moses' law because I'm already in Sabbath Rest in Christ. We don't have to try to accomplish what is already accomplished for us through our faith in Christ. That's a setting aside of the law of Moses, not a breaking and destruction and casting away of the law of Moses as the church teaches.

Maybe you were under such a law at some point but I was never under such a law...... further more I don’t believe that God himself was subject to such laws, if so Jesus would have washed His hands prior to eating.

 

[farouk]

Maybe you were under such a law at some point but I was never under such a law...... further more I don’t believe that God himself was subject to such laws, if so Jesus would have washed His hands prior to eating.

@Waiting on him I do think a real grasp of Hebrews as an Epistle can alter one'e whole thinking about law-keeping.

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him I do think a real grasp of Hebrews as an Epistle can alter one'e whole thinking about law-keeping.

Interestingly at the wedding at Cana; the first Miracle The Lord God worked, where most Christians chose to allege themselves as the vessels in which Jesus turns water into wine.

the vessels where in fact the wash pots where the guests had previously washed their hands.

 

[farouk]

Interestingly at the wedding at Cana; the first Miracle The Lord God worked, where most Christians chose to allege themselves as the vessels in which Jesus turns water into wine.

the vessels where in fact the wash pots where the guests had previously washed their hands.

@Waiting on him Interesting point; not heard it put exactly like that before...

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him Interesting point; not heard it put exactly like that before...

John 2:6-7 KJV
[6] And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. [7] Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

 

[Waiting on him]

They were so consumed with the purification of the outward, His focus was more inward.