The Trinity definition

[jaybird]

I think that it is the doctrine of Christ's Deity that is essential to salvation (John 8:24).

can you explain this to me because this is one of those things that has never made sense to me. one day im just a guy, the next day i believe the Most High became a man. how does this make me a different person, a better person? this idea would fall under the category of the Most High can do what ever He wants, so the Most High becoming a man is really no different than the way things were to begin with.
now if i believe Jesus is the way, meaning the perfect example, a man, thats something i can do, i can do things the way Jesus did them, if i can have the faith that Jesus taught and lived by, that does in fact make me a better person. if i believe Jesus is the Most High, now Jesus is no longer the perfect example for mankind because He is no longer a man, only a man can be an example to man. James teaches that Jesus was tempted just the same as we are tempted. only a man can be tempted that way, the Father can not be tempted.

 

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

Amadeus said:
People can say that I am not, or that you are not, a Christian because we do not embrace all of their beliefs as our own, but what is that to me? What is that to you?

It is not that we are saying that "you must believe what I believe" as though my beliefs dictated what everyone is supposed to believe. We get our beliefs from holy scripture...and the holy scriptures teach that if anyone denies the fact that Jesus is the great I AM, they will die in their sins. So it is the Bible that dictates the fact that people who deny Christ's Deity are not born again....since no one who is born again will ever come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)).

And if a person apparently [according to you or to me] misunderstands who Jesus is, who is able to determine the right of it? You? Me? In responding to my above words you left out the verse I quoted...

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." John 21:21-22

You are still defining your terms and using those definitions as a basis for talking about others who disagree with you. Disagreement is one thing, but condemnation is another. We are all right according to ourselves... you and me too as Solomon was inspired by God to write 3,000 years ago. Only God is without doubt never wrong and has all knowledge about everyone. This is why He alone is the final judge.

Jesus told Peter to leave it alone. The thing with John was not Peter's business. If we want to discuss something, go for it, but to me what Jesus told Peter should apply to us as well.

 

[justbyfaith]

maybe your right, lets put it to the test and see. lets switch I Am for Most High and see how it works

"Unless you believe that Most High, you will die in your sins."

does that sound right to you? none the less it does not sound at all like Jesus is saying "I am the Most High. for Jesus to be saying what you want Him to say you need the phrase I Am I Am or I Am the I Am which would mean "I am the Most High"

John 8 27 is Jesus talking about "He" but Jesus does not claim that He is "He", He says that "He" has sent Him. Jesus was sent by someone, the Father. you dont send your self.

Jesus was using a play on words. He was indeed claiming to be the great I AM when He said, Before Abraham was, I am.

the Most High is not the "son of" anyone, He is the Most High, there is no other above Him, thats what "Most High" means, it literally means the highest one.

Jesus is the Most High...He is God the Son. John 5:18 tells us that He claimed to be equal to the Father.

Do you think that changing scripture at will to suit your needs impresses me? It does! It clearly and equivocally reinforces and shows your disdain and disgust for the sacred and holy writ of the Father in order to impress and serve your 3-headed god idol.

I have not changed the holy scripture to suit my needs...and neither is the object of my worship an idol.

if i believe Jesus is the Most High, now Jesus is no longer the perfect example for mankind because He is no longer a man, only a man can be an example to man.

Jesus is the Most High and He is a Man (see Luke 1:37).

James teaches that Jesus was tempted just the same as we are tempted. only a man can be tempted that way, the Father can not be tempted.

Yes, Jesus was tempted in His humanity and not in His Deity. If He was tempted in His Deity, He was not tempted with evil (James 1:13).

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith


And if a person apparently [according to you or to me] misunderstands who Jesus is, who is able to determine the right of it? You? Me? In responding to my above words you left out the verse I quoted...

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." John 21:21-22

You are still defining your terms and using those definitions as a basis for talking about others who disagree with you. Disagreement is one thing, but condemnation is another. We are all right according to ourselves... you and me too as Solomon was inspired by God to write 3,000 years ago. Only God is without doubt never wrong and has all knowledge about everyone. This is why He alone is the final judge.

Jesus told Peter to leave it alone. The thing with John was not Peter's business. If we want to discuss something, go for it, but to me what Jesus told Peter should apply to us as well.

Clearly I am not making a judgment of my own to agree with Jesus' words when He said that if anyone does not believe that He is the great I AM, they will die in their sins.

Jesus made that statement. People may want to dispute the plain meaning of that statement but I believe it as He said it.

So then, as for me, I will believe in the Deity of Christ and will warn anyone who will listen that if they will not also believe in the Deity of Christ, they will die in their sins; just as Jesus said.

Of course, He will be their judge if they reject this testimony.

But I know that it is my job to relate the holy scriptures and what I believe them to be saying.

If anyone decides to reject my testimony, I know that their blood is no longer on my head because I have warned them from the Holy Spirit.

 

[DNB]

I'm not a universalist: there are MANY whom reject the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not have faith in Him. And are hence without His salvation. Rather they love their own selves-- their egos, their riches, their sins, etc.

Good theology helps foster faith and discipleship in Christ. But it never replaces faith. You don't get into heaven because you ace a theology scantron, or vise versa. There are many very studied individuals whom sit in Christian pews, but are greatly lacking in real discipleship. Conversely, many wonderful children whom are fantastic saved Christian- despite their lack anything remotely resembling a theology degree of any sort. But they have truly given their hearts to Him.

That's why I can acknowledge your own standing as a Christian: because I see how you love Him and have give your heart to Him. Even though I find your theological understanding to be very lacking. Likewise with @Christophany , though obviously his and my theological views are much closer in this area.

@Christophany
OK, so we all agree that rejection of Christ Jesus will disqualify anyone from salvation. Thus, is it safe to assume that one's specific Christology has no bearing on redemption, just as long as we understand that Jesus died for our sins, irrespective of his ontology?

 

[jaybird]

Jesus was using a play on words. He was indeed claiming to be the great I AM when He said, Before Abraham was, I am.

play on words? so that means we can input whatever we like, we could input kermit the frog under this philosophy. it all works because its play on words. see how that blows up in your face, none the less thats not what he says.
John 8 48 is not a command and not relevant.

Jesus is the Most High...He is God the Son. John 5:18 tells us that He claimed to be equal to the Father.

G-D the Son is a phrase outside the bible, there is a reason its not in there.

Jesus is the Most High and He is a Man (see Luke 1:37).

you cant be both, if your one then by default you can not be the other, a cat can not be a dog. if Jesus is man and Most High then by default mankind would also have to be Most High.

Yes, Jesus was tempted in His humanity and not in His Deity. If He was tempted in His Deity, He was not tempted with evil (James 1:13).

if He is the Most High He can not be tempted, Satan would have known that.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@Christophany
OK, so we all agree that rejection of Christ Jesus will disqualify anyone from salvation. Thus, is it safe to assume that one's specific Christology has no bearing on redemption, just as long as we understand that Jesus died for our sins, irrespective of his ontology?

See my previous statement on how good theology helps nurture faith.

 

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

Amadeus said:
If a person can never understand or embrace some kind of a Trintarian doctrine is he definitely lost then?

justbyfaith said:
I think that it is the doctrine of Christ's Deity that is essential to salvation (John 8:24).

Well only God gives any increases, so I will leave it at that.

 

[DNB]

See my previous statement on how good theology helps nurture faith.

I understand about edification, but sorry JD, for now I was just wondering if you are willing to delineate the parameters between the lost, and the saved? Where are the boundaries, if any? You seemed to stipulate that without faith in Jesus, one is lost, but you didn't elaborate any further. This raises many questions, eg: if we believe that Christ was not of the lineage of David, if he was not virgin born, if he was not a Jew, if he sinned, if he needed to die, etc... Are any of these essential beliefs? Can I confidently tell someone that, in certain circumstances, that their faith is either misguided, or not sufficient, to procure their salvation?
Both @Christophany and I believe that a proper understanding of who God is, and who His Son is, is imperative to obtain salvation. And I will both qualify and emphasize my side of this point, by asserting that the logistics of the Atonement just have no efficacy if Jesus were God. Not to mention the potential blasphemy by calling a creature God. I say this just to allow one to appreciate my position, i.e. I'm not trying to be austere or exclusive, I'm speaking on practical terms.

 

[DNB]

In Exodus 3:14, God did not only say that "I am that I am" he also said, "thus you shall say to the children of Israel...I AM hath sent me to you."

So then, Jesus does not have to say it twice in order for it to be a valid claim of being the great I AM.

Yes, he had to say it twice. You didn't read thoroughly the examples that I gave. The context that you gave in Exodus, the expression is correct, in John 8:58, it must be repeated in order to make it say what your eisegesis wants it to say.
In other words, to facilitate the point, let's use YHWH as the personal pronoun.
'Tell them that YHWH sent you' - this works
'Before Abraham was, YHWH' - this does not work grammatically. it must be repeated in one form, or another. 'before Abraham was, I am YHWH'
Get it?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I understand about edification, but sorry JD, for now I was just wondering if you are willing to delineate the parameters between the lost, and the saved? Where are the boundaries, if any? You seemed to stipulate that without faith in Jesus, one is lost, but you didn't elaborate any further. This raises many questions, eg: if we believe that Christ was not of the lineage of David, if he was not virgin born, if he was not a Jew, if he sinned, if he needed to die, etc... Are any of these essential beliefs? Can I confidently tell someone that, in certain circumstances, that their faith is either misguided, or not sufficient, to procure their salvation?

Your salvation is NOT defined by your ability to pass a theology test. I don't know how many times I have to say that, and yet you seem to keep asking "but what questions are on the test so I can know whom flunked and whom passed?" Honestly, I am finding it to be frustrating.

 

[DNB]

Your salvation is NOT defined by your ability to pass a theology test. I don't know how many times I have to say that, and yet you seem to keep asking "but what questions are on the test so I can know whom flunked and whom passed?" Honestly, I am finding it to be frustrating.

@Christophany
...you mean I wasted all that money by studying for, and taking the Official Salvation Exam?
Well, how am I supposed to know if I'm saved now, there must be a quiz or some sort of questionnaire, no?
Please don't tell me that the Zoroastrians were correct, after all?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@Christophany
...you mean I wasted all that money by studying for, and taking the Official Salvation Exam?
Well, how am I supposed to know if I'm saved now, there must be a quiz or some sort of questionnaire, no?
Please don't tell me that the Zoroastrians were correct, after all?

I'm not even going to bother this this rhetorical post.

 

[justbyfaith]

G-D the Son is a phrase outside the bible, there is a reason its not in there.

The Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8-9 (kjv).

you cant be both, if your one then by default you can not be the other, a cat can not be a dog. if Jesus is man and Most High then by default mankind would also have to be Most High.

Not necessarily. Jesus is uniquely the Son of God; and He can be both God and Man because with God, nothing shall be impossible (Luke 1:37).

if He is the Most High He can not be tempted, Satan would have known that.

The Most High can in fact be tempted; just not with evil (James 1:13).

'Before Abraham was, YHWH' - this does not work grammatically. it must be repeated in one form, or another. 'before Abraham was, I am YHWH'

So, Before Abraham was, I am, does not work grammatically, either, or didn't you notice that (since He goes from past to present tense for "no apparent reason")? Why did Jesus break normal grammatical structure in His sentence if He was not making a claim by it? The Pharisees understood what He was saying; they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59, John 10:31-33).

 

[michaelvpardo]

@marks

This is from Christianity.com

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of the Christian church across the centuries. What is the Trinity? Christians in every land unite in proclaiming that our God eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

This doctrine unites all true Christians and separates us from those who are not Christian. You may believe and still not be a Christian, but if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a Christian at all.

Do you agree with the above ?

Why or why not ?

hope this helps !!!

This web site had a similar doctrinal statement posted in an attempt to exclude cult members from using the forums for recruitment of young believers unfamiliar with sound doctrine and there was a link to it from the home page. I spent quite a few years just engaging cultists, tearing down false doctrines with the word of God, and offering redemption through faith in the person of our Lord and His work of propitiation for sin upon the cross (I don't recall many takers.)
Now the primary doctrinal divisions on these forums are between those who recognize themselves as believing saints, and those who have no assurance of salvation, their denominations having incorporated dogma which perpetuates a priesthood and denies that God alone is our Savior.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This web site had a similar doctrinal statement posted in an attempt to exclude cult members from using the forums for recruitment of young believers unfamiliar with sound doctrine and there was a link to it from the home page. I spent quite a few years just engaging cultists, tearing down false doctrines with the word of God, and offering redemption through faith in the person of our Lord and His work of propitiation for sin upon the cross (I don't recall many takers.)
Now the primary doctrinal divisions on these forums are between those who recognize themselves as believing saints, and those who have no assurance of salvation, their denominations having incorporated dogma which perpetuates a priesthood and denies that God alone is our Savior.

Thi

This web site had a similar doctrinal statement posted in an attempt to exclude cult members from using the forums for recruitment of young believers unfamiliar with sound doctrine and there was a link to it from the home page. I spent quite a few years just engaging cultists, tearing down false doctrines with the word of God, and offering redemption through faith in the person of our Lord and His work of propitiation for sin upon the cross (I don't recall many takers.)
Now the primary doctrinal divisions on these forums are between those who recognize themselves as believing saints, and those who have no assurance of salvation, their denominations having incorporated dogma which perpetuates a priesthood and denies that God alone is our Savior.

This website acknowledge all whom claim Christ as Christians.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your salvation is NOT defined by your ability to pass a theology test.

However, if you have the wrong Jesus (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4) chances are you have been deceived by the devil.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, he had to say it twice. You didn't read thoroughly the examples that I gave.

You're grasping at straws at this point.

The context that you gave in Exodus, the expression is correct, in John 8:58, it must be repeated in order to make it say what your eisegesis wants it to say.

Nope. It's exegesis. I may have gotten a little bit of help in my understanding from John 1:1 (kjv), John 1:14 (kjv).

 

[DNB]

You're grasping at straws at this point.



Nope. It's exegesis. I may have gotten a little bit of help in my understanding from John 1:1 (kjv), John 1:14 (kjv).

What difference does it make from where you derived your proof text from, you are the king of non-sequiturs and circular reasoning? There is not a single chance that you will be able to exegete Scripture correctly, not a chance.

 

[justbyfaith]

What difference does it make from where you derived your proof text from, you are the king of non-sequiturs and circular reasoning? There is not a single chance that you will be able to exegete Scripture correctly, not a chance.

That is merely your opinion.

In every case where you have claimed I was using a non-sequitur, my statements were a logical answer to your statements.

Thus, they were sequitur in every way.