The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[BloodBought 1953]

God does not refer to anyone other than Jesus as "My Chosen Vessel" in the NT - and certainly not Paul.

Acts 9:15,..... God said, Go, for he ( Paul) is a CHOSEN VESSEL of mine to bear My name before Gentiles....”
Why do you come to a Christian Forum to debate people that actually KNOW their Bibles— this is all Christianity 101 stuff.... You behave as if Ignorance were a Virtue.....you need to study and “ Rightly Divide “ God’s Word and in the-meantime stop embarrassing yourself.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The SOM is what it is. Jesus explains how to get through the pearly gates in that Sermon .. and you claiming that Jesus meant this or that is absurd because you don't know what Jesus meant ??

"Not all who call lord lord will enter Heaven - Only those that do the will of the Father"

I order to get into heaven - you need do the will of the Father .. This is what Jesus says - and indeed Jesus is telling you what you need to do to get into heaven.

Perhaps your view of salvation does not involve getting into heaven ??

The disciples asked Jesus what the Will Of The Father was...Jesus could have said anything....obey the Ten Commandments.....obey the Sermon on the Mount.....try your best to be good.....stop sinning...Turn over a new leaf.....repent of all of your sins before you die....if you bump your head and a bad word comes out make sure you repent real fast , lest you have a sudden heart-attack and die and-go to Hell!
Of course Jesus said NONE of that.....what did the “ Will Of The Father” turn out to be ? According to Jesus it was simply this—— “ BELIEVE in the One He sent”
Salvation is a GIFT.....not dependent on what “YOU” do.....it’s dependent on what “ HE” did and in your Trusting that it was enough.....Newbies please always remember this.....the Song had it right all along. It REALLY IS——“NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” when it comes to Salvation..... The Blood Of “ The One He Sent”......God Bless....

 

[justbyfaith]

The children are not killed for their own sins.. Scripture is clear on the reason for their death - because their parent or relatives were worshiping other Gods..

The children died for their own sins.

Just as we inherited sin from Adam but death came upon us because we sinned (Romans 5:12); so these children inherited the sin of idolatry from their parents but died for their own sin.

Your claim that the contradiction is reconciled is falsehood and self deception - the blind that can not see .. and who run from the teachings of Jesus in to the loving arms of Paul when these two conflict..

It is self-deception to hold to a pov that allows you to reject holy scripture and the claims that it might make on your life...and this is what you do when you claim that there are contradictions in the Bible; and then refuse to accept it when a reconciliation for the apparent contradictions that you have brought up are brought into the fray.

So you wish to live in a society where children are killed if their parents or relative worship Idols .. and where totalitarian dictators who subjugate you and commit all forms of atrocity are to be viewed as God's Chosen servants and obeyed without question .. not rebelled against.

Lovely :)

Again, those things were mandated in the Old Testament, not the New.

Which is not to say that the Old Testament is not inspired by God.

We know from passages such as 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 and Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Testament is fading away.

His lack of works will show he's not really declared righteous by faith.

That is contradictory to something else that you said:

That's different than what Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified by his faith in God. Paul is speaking of securing a legal declaration of being made righteous by believing in and accepting the cleansing forgiveness of God.

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A lot of people in the church are going to stand before Christ when he comes back with their faith alone expecting to go into the kingdom and Jesus will send them to the left and into the lake of fire,

What will happen to them is that their works will be burned up because they were wood, hay, stubble rather than gold, silver, and precious gems. however they will still "be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

while a few in the church will stand before Christ with their faith expressed in love and they will go to the right and into the kingdom. If you do not believe this then you do not believe the Bible. It's that simple.

The Bible says what I said above, that those who don't have gold, sliver, and precious gems to show for their faith will still "be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

That is right, but the church lops off the 'holy life' part and insists that faith that is alone saves a person too.

Technically, faith alone does save a person; while I also do not dispute that a living and saving faith will result in living holy. It is the living faith that saves and not the holy living that saves. For salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9)

But as I've shown you, even Paul said it is the faith that expresses itself in love that justifies (Galatians 5:6). Most in the church don't believe him or James and are betting their faith that is alone is sufficient to save them when Jesus comes back.

Does that verse say that the practical outworking of love in a person's life justifies him?

Why must one need accept modern Trinity Dogma to be a Christian ? Is it such a sin to believe that Jesus is divine .. but subordinate to the Father ?

The doctrine of the Trinity accepts that Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

that The Father called down to himself stating "you are my Son" instead of You are Me !

In declaring that Jesus is His Son He is also declaring that Jesus is Him (Isaiah 9:6).

Yes, it will. Because if he had the righteousness of faith he wouldn't be standing before Christ without works of righteousness to show for the righteousness he has through faith in God's forgiveness.

That is contradictory of something else you said:

That's different than what Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified by his faith in God. Paul is speaking of securing a legal declaration of being made righteous by believing in and accepting the cleansing forgiveness of God.

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Don't do to others what you hate .. The rest is all just commentary - Rabbai Hillel
Don't do to others what you hate .. "This sums up the Law and the Prophets" - Heyzeus aka Yeshua .. Matt 7:12

While that is on a negative, what Jesus said is more on the positive.

Not, "Don't do to other people what you don't want them to do to you..."

but..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is the difference between not hitting someone in the face when you are angry and giving food to your enemies.

If there was one passage that you could give - to sum up our Lord .. above is the answer given to you by "The Most High" .. be that be Shiva, Buddha, Confucius, Hamurrabi, El-YHWH, or Jesus.

Jesus' statement is superior to that of Shiva, Buddha, Confucius, and Hammurabi...for His statement actually takes it to a positive action rather than just not doing what you don't want to be done to you.

Regardless .. if Jesus was there teaching Paul for 3 years .. he is a darn slow learner and/or Jesus a really poor teacher.

Jesus taught the original disciples for three years.

And it usually takes four years for someone to graduate from a University...

So I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Blaming it on "the church" is kind of a cop-out, don't you think?

I blame the organization we call the church, not individual believers. They are responsible for leading us to where we are at in my opinion. The individual believer blindly followed. It's like we default to the church instead of to the Spirit of discernment inside of us.

According to whom, though?

Why not according to the authors themselves? Yeah, I know, novel idea, huh? I think the church has dedicated itself to unneeded interpretation instead of just taking the authors for what they said.

There are spiritual psychologies at work in the Bible. Hiding wisdom from the wise, spiritual discernment, etc.

But it's supposed to be hidden to unbelievers, not the people of God! Our endless theologies end up hiding the truth from the believers. If God made it so little children can get it why do us adults mess it up so we miss it?

I like you. ;)

:)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That is contradictory of something else you said:

Maybe it sounds contradictory to you because you aren't making the distinction between justification by faith and being justified by works. The true believer has both. I'm not talking about the justification by works that can not save. Works don't make us righteous. We don't have that justification. The justification by works the believer must have is James' justification by works. Works show us to be righteous. And so the true believer must be justified by both faith and works.

James 2
24 a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
18 I will show you my faith by my works.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
14 if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

I don't think it's right to invent some kind of theology to undo what James says. But that is what the church has done. The Protestant church anyway.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Does that verse say that the practical outworking of love in a person's life justifies him?

Not in this verse. But in the verses immediately following he talks about how justification by faith looks in a person. He says to the Galatians that this faith that justifies is the faith that fulfills the law. The faith that justifies is the faith that expresses itself in the fulfillment of the law. The church is majoring in a faith that doesn't find fulfillment in the law. They are not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

while I also do not dispute that a living and saving faith will result in living holy. It is the living faith that saves and not the holy living that saves.

Maybe you'd see it better if you understood it the way the Bible presents it. Faith JUSTIFIES, and makes it so a person can be SAVED. You have to be justified to be saved. But we fuse the two things together into one concept. I think I brought this up before about keeping a clear distinction between being justified, and being saved, the way the Bible does.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

For salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9)

That's right, salvation is not earned by works. Works do not make us righteous. That's how salvation is not of works. But our works will be used to justify us as being a person not made righteous by works. I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but the church has tied this up in such a big knot that undoing it can be confusing. If we had just let the Bible say what it says we wouldn't have this kind of confusion to deal with.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Bible says what I said above, that those who don't have gold, sliver, and precious gems to show for their faith will still "be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

I know the church has taught you that 1 Corinthians 3 is talking about your works of holy living, and so it's going to be hard to undo that, but all you have to do is read it and see it's talking about one's work in building the building of God. Paul labored among the Corinthians, and so did Apollos. The judgement will bring to light each man's labor in the building of God. If their labor was unsuccessful they themselves will still be saved but they will have accomplished nothing and will therefore have no reward. As I said before, if you make it about personal holiness you not only defy the context but you put Paul in direct contradiction with Jesus and James.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

No idea what he was doing - and neither do you .. perhaps he thought he try his hand at farming...

Regardless .. if Jesus was there teaching Paul for 3 years .. he is a darn slow learner and/or Jesus a really poor teacher.

Or......it may have taken three years to get the “Pharisee” out of him....

There were those that poor- mouthed Paul,and his teachings simply because he did not hang around with Jesus for three years like the disciples did.... Now Paul, with his three year one -on- one teaching course with Jesus could say that he got as much “ face time” with Jesus as they did....and I admit that most of this stuff is Conjecture....but it makes a lot of sense.....

 

[justbyfaith]

He says to the Galatians that this faith that justifies is the faith that fulfills the law. The faith that justifies is the faith that expresses itself in the fulfillment of the law.

In Galatians? Would you mind citing chapter and verse?

Because I find that in Galatians, Paul teaches us that if we attempt to be justified by the law, we have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:1-4); that if we are of the law we are under the curse because it is written that cursed is every one that continueth not in everything written in the book of the law to do it (Galatians 3:10); and that not even those who are sticklers for the law are even able to keep it (Galatians 6:13).

 

[justbyfaith]

But it's supposed to be hidden to unbelievers, not the people of God! Our endless theologies end up hiding the truth from the believers. If God made it so little children can get it why do us adults mess it up so we miss it?

See Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21.

Maybe you'd see it better if you understood it the way the Bible presents it. Faith JUSTIFIES, and makes it so a person can be SAVED. You have to be justified to be saved. But we fuse the two things together into one concept. I think I brought this up before about keeping a clear distinction between being justified, and being saved, the way the Bible does.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The term "justify" means "to declare righteous".

Believing, in this verse does not only bring about the declaration of righteousness (justification which is an aspect of salvation); it actually makes the person righteous, in the heart.

This is very profound; because it indicates that a man can be righteous in his heart (like Cornelius) and yet not saved (if he believes and yet does not confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus).

So then, it is not our righteousness that saves us; but it is our relationship to the Lord Jesus that is salvational.

I would say that what this scripture is saying is that our confession of the Lord Jesus is made valid by the righteousness of faith that exists within our heart.

I think I am content to have you know and understand that someone who confesses the Lord on their deathbed is saved even if they do not have any subsequent works for lack of time to perform them.

I will agree with you that if they have the time to perform them they will do so because the righteousness needed to perform them is in their heart.

But I will also say that it is important that we rest in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and not feel that we are somehow not saved if we have not done any good works; and then, when we finally do some good work, to think that somehow we are now saved because we did it.

That would be contrary to the message of Ephesians 2:8-9.

We are more likely to do good works that are worthy of salvation if we do them out of the fact that we are resting in the salvation that the Lord has given to us and are doing it as a labour of love out of a desire to see the other person saved, rather than seeking to do it "in order to save myself."

And even if I do what is worthy of salvation for the right reasons, that work does not save me (Ephesians 2:8-9); because I have already been saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

 

[Heyzeus]

Acts 9:15,..... God said, Go, for he ( Paul) is a CHOSEN VESSEL of mine to bear My name before Gentiles....”
Why do you come to a Christian Forum to debate people that actually KNOW their Bibles— this is all Christianity 101 stuff.... You behave as if Ignorance were a Virtue.....you need to study and “ Rightly Divide “ God’s Word and in the-meantime stop embarrassing yourself.....

Right .. and the author of Luke heard God say this :)

 

[Heyzeus]

The disciples asked Jesus what the Will Of The Father was...Jesus could have said anything....obey the Ten Commandments.....obey the Sermon on the Mount.....try your best to be good.....stop sinning...Turn over a new leaf.....repent of all of your sins before you die....if you bump your head and a bad word comes out make sure you repent real fast , lest you have a sudden heart-attack and die and-go to Hell!
Of course Jesus said NONE of that.....what did the “ Will Of The Father” turn out to be ? According to Jesus it was simply this—— “ BELIEVE in the One He sent”
Salvation is a GIFT.....not dependent on what “YOU” do.....it’s dependent on what “ HE” did and in your Trusting that it was enough.....Newbies please always remember this.....the Song had it right all along. It REALLY IS——“NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” when it comes to Salvation..... The Blood Of “ The One He Sent”......God Bless....

Jesus said all of that .. what are you talking about ? - have you never read the sermon on the Mount ?

There is a reason why the majority of Christianity does not accept Sola Fide doctrine - has works as part of the salvation formulation. You might want to give reading Matt 5:7 a try with this in mind.

 

[Heyzeus]

The children died for their own sins.

Just as we inherited sin from Adam but death came upon us because we sinned (Romans 5:12); so these children inherited the sin of idolatry from their parents but died for their own sin..

Right .. so because all children whose parents relatives ..( or neighbors for that matter) are not devout Christians are sinners we should kill them all.

You have seriously lost your way. This kind of thinking is what gives Christianity and the a bad name - drives people from the faith.

 

[Heyzeus]

The children died for their own sins.

Just as we inherited sin from Adam but death came upon us because we sinned (Romans 5:12); so these children inherited the sin of idolatry from their parents but died for their own sin.

It is self-deception to hold to a pov that allows you to reject holy scripture and the claims that it might make on your life...and this is what you do when you claim that there are contradictions in the Bible; and then refuse to accept it when a reconciliation for the apparent contradictions that you have brought up are brought into the fray..

Self deception is thinking Jesus is in favor of your believe that all children whose parents relatives ..( or neighbors for that matter) worship other gods should be killed because of the sin inherited from their parents through this action.

Again, those things were mandated in the Old Testament, not the New.

Which is not to say that the Old Testament is not inspired by God.

Mandate or no Mandate .. This is Gods Unchangeable Word according to you.. Should we not do as God has Commanded ?
Jesus did not believe in this God's Word .. so neither do I.

 

[Heyzeus]

Or......it may have taken three years to get the “Pharisee” out of him....

..

That's hilarious .. good one :)

There were those that poor- mouthed Paul,and his teachings simply because he did not hang around with Jesus for three years like the disciples did.... Now Paul, with his three year one -on- one teaching course with Jesus could say that he got as much “ face time” with Jesus as they did....and I admit that most of this stuff is Conjecture....but it makes a lot of sense...

Give God some Credit .. sure he has better things to do than hang around with Paul for 3 years .. could have just given him the Godly Mindzap injection and he would know all in an instant. Look .. is not in scripture so I will not guess - just to put Paul on the Same field as the disciples.

Fact of the matter is that Paul was not there .. does not know the teachings of Jesus via hearing the word of Jesus during his life .. or from the disciples .. as he says nothing to us about the life of Jesus.

Had this 3 years of training have occurred .. would some knowledge of the life of Jesus not be part of the Training ? Paul must have forgot that part because nowhere in his writing is such training reflected.

 

[Renniks]

Why must one need accept modern Trinity Dogma to be a Christian ? Is it such a sin to believe that Jesus is divine .. but subordinate to the Father ?

I am thinking you can not justify your position - and are in danger of usurping the Position of Jesus. Who are you to say who is a follower .. and who is not ... that Jesus was not "Sent" by the Father .. that The Father called down to himself stating "you are my Son" instead of You are Me ! and there is no distinction between the son and the Father.

OK .. lets hear it .. tell me why I will not make it through the pearly gates on the basis of believing that the Father proceeds the Son out of the Godhead.

You refused to acknowledge the bodily resurrection of Jesus and refused to acknowledge the incarnation. You keep dancing around my questions that are just about the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Did the resurrection happen? Did Jesus, as I said before come as a baby while simultaneously God still ran the universe? Believing Jesus is God is also one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It's not optional. If you believe in Him you will be saved. Not if you believe in a false version of him. There are many false versions out there that are not biblical.

 

[Renniks]

And by the way I disagree with this. It's pretty clear in long passages of scripture what holy living looks like. You probably don't 'see' them because the church doesn't see them. Your pastor probably doesn't see them. No one it seems sees them in the Bible. But the church is real good at seeing the one or two sentences about witnessing, giving to the church, attending church, etc. The church doesn't know what matters in the Christian faith. They are not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

Well, you have not defined for me what your holiness looks like, so yeah, it's still subjective.

 

[Heyzeus]

You refused to acknowledge the bodily resurrection of Jesus and refused to acknowledge the incarnation. You keep dancing around my questions that are just about the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Did the resurrection happen? Did Jesus, as I said before come as a baby while simultaneously God still ran the universe? Believing Jesus is God is also one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It's not optional. If you believe in Him you will be saved. Not if you believe in a false version of him. There are many false versions out there that are not biblical.

I have not refused to acknowledge the incarnation .. just at a different stage of life. .. and have danced around none of your questions ... I believe in the soul and the resurrection of the soul ... and hence the soul of Jesus was also resurrected .. and is not dead.

The question of whether Jesus came as God - is a separate question . I don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same .. I believe one is subordinate to the other.

The question of whether or not Jesus was made divine is a different question yet .. and when is another question. I believe the story of Mark - that the spark of the divine descended on Jesus at his Baptism .. upon which .. he went for testing. Satan did not ask God "The Father" his Father according to Scripture .. to bow down to him.

So in this story .. Jesus is not divine .. but made divine at his baptism .. upon which he had to go through testing to complete the ritual.
So Jesus is a Son of God .. but Jesus is not "God The Father" distinct personages - united in Spirit.

Did Jesus have some spark of the Divine at at Birth ? .. hey .. why not .. but it was not actualized until his baptism ..

now .. what of your questions have I not answered ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, you have not defined for me what your holiness looks like, so yeah, it's still subjective.

I did.

Matthew 5:17 through Matthew 7:27. Ephesians 4:1-32 through Ephesians 6:9. Also in Colossians 3:5-25 through Colossians 4:1.

But as I said, the church can't see it. That's why you didn't see it when I posted it. Your eyes glaze over and your mind goes numb when you read it. Right? But if I post a scripture about once saved always saved or tithing or church attendance, etc. your mind will become sharp and focused. It's because the church is majoring in minors instead of what really counts and what will save them when Jesus comes back.