Apparitions of the Virgin Mary

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Marymog

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Of course. You do it all the time.

Definition of pray


transitive verb

1: ENTREAT, IMPLORE —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or pleapray be careful

Taken from here: Definition of PRAY

Peace!
True. But in the context we as Christians use the word this part of the definition ois more applicable: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
 

Philip James

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No, that's not correct. A person can say to another person, "I pray you will listen to me," or something like that, but that's not praying to another human being, and it's certainly not praying to humans who are deceased. A prayer is a special kind of request. I think we need to define terms.

Here's the American Heritage definition of the word "pray."
pray prā

  • intransitive verb
    To utter or address a prayer or prayers to a deity or an object of worship, often as an entreaty.
  • intransitive verb
    To use prayer to request (that something may happen).
  • intransitive verb
    To say (a prayer or group of prayers).

Hello Prayer Warrior,

I already posted my definition of 'pray' above.

Must i use your definition?

Mary and the Saints are not God. We do not offer them sacrifice.

If wish to know to Whom we offer sacrifice come to Mass and hear!

Peace be with you!
 
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Philip James

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True. But in the context we as Christians use the word this part of the definition ois more applicable: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

I suppose that depends on whether we are addressing God or one of His creatures no?
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Hello Prayer Warrior,

I already posted my definition of 'pray' above.

Must i use your definition?

Mary and the Saints are not God. We do not offer them sacrifice.

If wish to know to Whom we offer sacrifice come to Mass and hear!

Peace be with you!
Sorry, I work and haven't been able to follow the discussion all day. The words "pray" and "request" are not specifically synonymous. Like I said, "pray" usually means a specific kind of request to a deity. Do you ever tell someone that you are praying TO him or her?? Do you ever ask others to pray TO you??

I'm not sure what you mean by offering sacrifice.
 

marks

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It kind of makes sense if that was the only passage in Scripture that talks about reconciliation.

What is the ministry of reconciliation that God gave us in 2 Corinthians 5:18?

I guess I should back up a little bit here and make sure we are on the same page:
What is YOUR definition of reconciliation when it pertains to this conversation?
The reason why I bring up reconciliation is that I see our reconciliation to be so complete that no one can undo it.

To answer your first question, the ministry of reconciliation,

2 Corinthians 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I understand this as that the Apostle, and we can I think include all who participate in the call, that we stand in for Christ in urging people to receive the reconciliation.

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement (lit. Received the reconciliation).

So that we were reconciled to God even while we were unrepentant sinners, and now, having received the reconciliation, we are in a whole new level, not just reconciled, but saved by His life.

This is where justification comes in, that we've been put to death in Him, and resurrected in Him. Our death in Him satisfies the righteous requirement, the soul that sins shall die. But Jesus is our ark, and we survive our own death. And we come alive with a new life, His life, being reborn righteous and holy.

Therefore there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. What shall separate us from the love of God?

OK, I appreciate this discussion! And your patience to wade through all this.

So much, to my thinking, comes down to this matter of reconciliation and justification. If we truly are reconciled to God, and if we truly are reborn in righteousness, and nothing can condemn us, and nothing can separate us from God, well, these is so much that I weigh against these doctrines.

In the matter of praying to Mary, to ask her to pray to the Father for me, I have a hard time reconciling the ideas, that God listens to one and not the other. That speaks to me of a lessor sort of reconciliation.

In confession to be reconciled, again, it seems to me that the Bible is very clear on this, that our reconciliation is complete, and is not based on our obedience, instead, it is based on Jesus obedience, also in Romans 5.

Your thoughts?

Much love!
 

marks

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My definition of praying to someone: making a request to an entity (God) or person (Jesus) that can actually give you what you are asking for.

I think I now understand your definition of praying; asking someone to do something.

Did it get that right?
I also just read your's and Philip's posts, sometimes we all just need to compare notes on how we are using words!

:)

Much love!
 

Taken

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If I ask you to pray for me am I praying to you?

If you asked me to pray for you... pretty confidant you would recognize you are asking a Living Bodily person.
How do you, a living Bodily person, communicate with a Living Soul in Heaven?

Taken
 

marks

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No, that's not correct. A person can say to another person, "I pray you will listen to me," or something like that, but that's not praying to another human being, and it's certainly not praying to humans who are deceased. A prayer is a special kind of request. I think we need to define terms.

Here's the American Heritage definition of the word "pray."
pray prā

  • intransitive verb
    To utter or address a prayer or prayers to a deity or an object of worship, often as an entreaty.
  • intransitive verb
    To use prayer to request (that something may happen).
  • intransitive verb
    To say (a prayer or group of prayers).
So then @Marymog is using the word more like you, and I'm using it more like @Philip James .

I love it when we can get on the same page!

:)

Much love!
 
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marks

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If you asked me to pray for you... pretty confidant you would recognize you are asking a Living Bodily person.
How do you, a living Bodily person, communicate with a Living Soul in Heaven?

Taken
This is a question I also have.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Hello YeshuaFan,

We could not possibly magnify Mary more than God already has in choosing her to be His mother.

Honouring an artist's master piece, honours the artist..

Peace be with you!
I understand how Mary is the mother of Jesus in His incarnation, but how is she the "mother of God" considering that God lives eternally?

Much love!
 
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historyb

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Protestants apparently believe that Mary was on the same level as a crack whore from the ghetto. So be it. At least they believe she exists, unlike atheists.

Not all I believe, mostly evangelicals and than only the most rabid type
 

Taken

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I know that you know about these passages but I will entertain you so I can see where you are going with this: ;)

Enoch: Genesis 5:24 says that God “took” him, but doesn’t say where. Sirach 44:16 and 49:14 make it clear that he was taken :rolleyes:up from the earth, and Hebrews 11:5 adds “so that he should not see death.”

Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11 states that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” First Maccabees 2:58 adds, “Elijah because of great zeal for the Law was taken :rolleyes: up into heaven.”

Bible Study Mary

It is NOT beyond my scope of understanding...
That Gods gives Life and God "Takes" away Life, and God gives life.

The LIFE God Gives a man, is His Breath in a soul, and many Saved souls have Risen up to Heaven.

As a matter of Fact God Requires the LIFE of man, which is man's Blood.

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require;

As a matter of Fact Jesus said:

John 3:13
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So if you think a man Witnessed a man's "Body" rising up to Heaven...Where is the Scripture those same men came "Bodily" Down from Heaven?
 

Grailhunter

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@marks
Come on guys, there is no such thing as original sin. So silly, you are hurting my head!

So this scripture....you asked for it...Toyota!
Romans 5:10 “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

This statement is at the heart of understand the saving grace of Christ’s sacrificial crucifixion and Salvation itself. It explains the reconciliation of God and Man. So many scriptures ties to this! So many!

Salvation involves the nature and rules of the divine. Atonement?....You break my fence and my son has to die for me to forgive you….It is not a concept that exists in our world, culture, or society. It involves a complicated set of conditions and rules that is actually alien to us. Yeshua could not just come and introduce a new covenant like Yahweh had done in the OT. The world had accumulated a large tally of sins…a debt…as we understood in our terms. Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.”


The justice of Yahweh, dictates that payment be made in lieu of atonement or forgiveness. So by Yahweh’s rules, forgiveness comes at a price. People like to say that salvation is the free gift of God. Ask Christ if it was free. He may offer salvation to us freely, but it came with a heavy price. So when you look at the elements and terms used in salvation you will see judicial terms and terms that imply a payment made by Christ, for us and in our place. This was a God that loved us so much He was willing to go through the passion and death sequence for us. This was a God that took off His clothes and got down on His knees and washed the Apostle’s feet. Which sums up much of the Spirit of Christianity.

To understand salvation, you have to understand the love Yeshua had/has for us, while yet we were sinners. This is the key to understanding salvation. The love Yeshua has for sinners….we were sinners….we are sinners…and we are always going to be sinners, and yet He loves us. The plan and process and progression of salvation was never made for the perfect. You also need to consider that Yeshua’s mission on earth was a plan…a plan of the Trinity ….a plan that called for the Son of God to be scourged beyond all understanding and crucified to a cross. What do you bet They would come up with a plan that would have an extremely high success rate? You have to keep this in mind when considering all aspects of salvation…from belief….to heaven.

The truth about salvation?….it is not a denominational thing….No person or Church can control this. It is a Gospel thing. What I am going to address here is in regard to sin after Christ’s crucifixion and His resurrection and how that ties into the processes of Salvation.


The doctrine of salvation is both simple and complex. On one hand, most of us can quote at least part of John 3:16 or of Paul’s response to the Philippian jailor’s question about how to be saved (Acts 16:31). On the other hand, who can explain how a Holy God/Man could become Sin and die, and with Him take Sin out of the world, for those that believe in Him? (John 1:29 & 1John 3:5)

Salvation is extremely important to understand correctly, for the sake of one’s own salvation and, one would not want to preach a false belief. There is an Anathema (curse) on anyone (including angels or preachers) who teaches a different message of Salvation from what is taught in the New Testament. (This curse is referenced in Gal 1:6 thru 10.) The doctrine of Christianity, the teachings of Christ can be found in the Bible. The doctrine of Man, false teachings can not!

The Gospels teach that true Salvation is that which is provided by God Himself through the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ. There is no other way that Man can be saved from eternal condemnation and enter into eternal life. (John 14:6 ) There is no other name that can be called upon for salvation. (Acts 4:12) Man alone can not save Himself, not through works, not through deeds, or observance of Laws. Man can only be saved through the great love and grace of Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-10, Titus 2:11 & Titus 3:4 &5, 2Timothy 1:9, John 3:16)

Leave it to your cousin to steal your thunder. John 1:29 “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is not exaggeration.” 1st John 2:2 “and He himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. Neither of these two scriptures are exaggerations or just a figure of speech.

When Christ died on the cross, before anyone was saved, the veil in the temple tore in two, top to bottom. At that point there was nothing between us and God the Father. Before that sin had been the distance and the bearer between us and God the Father. Christ’s sacrificial death had paid the price for all of the sins on earth. His death had put an end to the OT system of sin and tally. He not only wiped the slat clean, he broke the slat…no more OT sin. This is what the scripture you guys were talking about allude to. Romans 5:10 “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

At his resurrection He took all authority over sin and from that point, for all that believe in Him, anyone’s sin is between them and Christ, and God the Father never sees your sin. The Grace of Christ presents us before God the Father blameless and perfect. Perfected by Christ.

Now this is the part that some people do not get about baptism. When you repent and believe in Christ, the sins that you accumulated on your soul before you were saved are done away with by baptism…washed away lol…not exactly. The emersion in the water is the event of Christ’s death, you die with Christ and when you come up, you are resurrected with Christ a new person. That person that went down in the water and his or her sins, as far as Christ is concerned, never existed. From then on your sins are between you and Christ. 1st John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” This is the element of Salvation called FORGIVENESS.

But then Paul goes on to explains the other elements of Salvation through The Lamb Of God

PROPITIATION
There are many facets to the meaning of Christ’s death, but the central one….without which the others have no eternal meaning is, the act of substitution. This simply means that Christ died in the place of sinners. The use of the Greek preposition “anti”, clearly teaches this because it means “in the place of.” It is used, for instance, with this meaning in a passage that has nothing to do with the death of Christ. (Luke 11:11) But more significantly, it is used in a passage which gives our Lord’s own interpretation of the meaning of His death. (Matt. 20:28 Mark 10:45) His death, He said, “….was to be a payment in the place of many.”

However, another preposition, “huper”, is also used in the New Testament, and it has two meanings; sometimes it means “for the benefit of”’ and sometimes “in the place of.” Of course the death of Christ was both in our place and for our benefit, and there is no reason why “huper” when it is used in relation to His death does not include both ideas. (2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 3:18)
 
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Grailhunter

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REDEMPTION
The doctrine of redemption is built on three words in the New Testament. The first is a simple word which means “to buy or purchase or pay a price for something.” It is used for instance with this ordinary, everyday meaning in the parable of the treasure hid in a field which motivated the man to buy (redeem) the field (Matt. 13:44). In relation to our salvation, the word means to pay the price which our Sins demanded so that we could be redeemed.

The second word is the same basic word indicated above, pre-fixed with a preposition, which has the force of intensifying the meaning. This can be easily expressed in English because the preposition means “out of” thus making the second word mean, “to purchase out of the market.” Thus the idea in this second word is that Christ’s death not only paid the price for our Sins, but also removed us from the marketplace of Sin in order to give us full assurance that we will never be returned to the bondage and penalties of Sin. (Colossians 1:14 & 2:14)

The third word for redemption is an entirely different one. Its basic meaning is “to loose” and thus it signifies that the purchased person is also released and set free in the fullest sense. The means of this release is through the substitution Christ made. The basis is the blood of God’s own son. The intent is to purify a people.

Thus the “Doctrine of Redemption” is; Because of the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, believers in Him have been purchased and removed from the bondage and curse of the Law, and liberated. (Eph. 1:7, Heb. 9:12 – 15, Gal. 3:12 & 5:1.)

JUSTIFICATION OF CHRISTIANS
One of the other effects of Christ’s death is that we are acceptable before God. (Col. 2:13) We are Reconciled. (2 Cor. 5:19 thru 21) We are Forgiven (Romans 3:25) We are Delivered.(Col.1:13) We are acceptance in the Beloved. (Eph.1:6) We are assured future Glorification (Romans 8:30) We are Justified. (Romans 3:24)

To Justify, is to declare righteous. It is a judicial term indicating that a verdict of acquittal has been announced, excluding all possibility of condemnation. Indeed, in the Scriptures, Justification is invariably set over against condemnation. (Deut. 25:1 Romans 5:16; 8:33 and 34) The claims of God’s Law against the sinner have been fully satisfied. Justification is not because of any overlooking, suspended sentence, or alteration of God’ righteous demands, but because in Christ all of His demands have been fulfilled. Christ’s perfect life of obedience to the Law and His atoning death which paid its penalty are the bases for our Justification. (Romans 5:9) Justification could never be based on our good works, for God requires perfect obedience, which is impossible for Man. ( Romans 3:20, Gal.2:16-21,3:11, Titus 3:5-7)

The means of Justification is faith (Romans 3:22, 25, 28, 30). Faith is the means or channel through which God’s grace can impute the righteousness of Christ to the believing transgressor. (Romans 5:1&2.) When we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah, and are baptized in His name, God drops all charges of Sin against us; thus we stand acquitted. (Acts 13:38-41) Then God justly announces that acquittal, and that pronouncement is Justification.

SANCTIFICATION THROUGH CHRIST
The word sanctify means to set apart (it has the same root as the words saint and holy). For Christians, sanctification has three aspects. First the believer has been set apart by his position in the family of God. This is usually called positional sanctification. It means being set apart as a member of the family of God. It is true of every believer regardless of his or her spiritual state. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and remember the carnal condition of these believers. That this positional sanctification is based on the death of Christ is clear from Hebrews 10:10, 1Cor.1:30, 2Thess. 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2.

Of coarse there is also an experiential aspect of sanctification. Because we have been set apart we are to be increasingly set apart in our daily lives (1 Peter 1:16). In the positional sense no one is more sanctified than another, but in the experiential aspect it is quite correct to speak of one believer as being more sanctified than another. All the exhortations of the New Testament concerning spiritual growth are pertinent to this progressive and experiential factor of sanctification.

There is also a sense in which we will not be fully glorified until our position and practice are brought into perfect accord, and this will occur only when we see Christ and “and shall be like Him. (1 John 3:1 thru 3) This is our ultimate or future sanctification which awaits our complete Glorification with resurrected bodies.

So what is the purpose of Forgiveness, Propitiation, Justification, Redemption, Sanctification, Reconciliation, and Adoption. To know this, to understand this, is the apex of Christian enlightenment. Because to know this is to have an insight to God’s plan. Certainly all this was done to save us, but more than that; All these things were done so we could be reconciled to our God. (2 Cor. 5:14-21 Col. 1:22) So that once again He could accept us as His children, purified and blameless before Him. (Titus 2:11-15, 1 Cor. 1:8, Eph. 1:4)


RECONCILIATION WITH GOD
This is the process by which God and His people are brought together again. The Bible teaches that they were alienated from one another because of God’s holiness and human sinfulness. Although God the Father loves the sinner, (Romans 5:8), it is impossible for Him not to judge Sin, (Hebrews 10:27). Therefore, in Biblical reconciliation, both parties are affected. Through the sacrifice of Christ, people’s Sins are atoned for and God’s wrath is appeased. Thus, a relationship of hostility and alienation is changed into one of peace and fellowship, (Ephesians 2:13-19).

The initiative in reconciliation was taken by God, while we were still sinners and enemies, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8&10, Col. 1:21). Reconciliation is God’s own plan. God Himself “…has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ.” Paul regarded the Gospel as “…the word of reconciliation”, (2Cor. 5:18&19).


ADOPTED INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD
Adoption is a particularly wonderful benefit of the New Covenant. Every time you read “son” in relation to a believer in John’s writings, for instance, you should translate it “child”, for John does not write of the sonship of the believer. (Even though he acknowledges that we are “children of God, 1st John 3:1) But on the other hand Paul reveals that we are adopted as sons. It is true that we are “The Children of God” by the new birth, but it is also true that we are adopted into God’s family at the same time. Romans 8:14-23, 9:4&8, 2nd Corinthians 6:18, Galatians 3:26, 4:5-7 Ephesians 1:5, 2:19, Philippians 2:15. In the act of adoption a child is taken by a man from a family not his own, introduced into a new family, and regarded as a true son with all the privileges and responsibilities that belong to this new relationship. The imagery in the idea of a child of God is one of birth, growth, and development into maturity; the idea in sonship is that of full fledged privileges in the new family of God. Adoption bestows a new status on the one who receives Christ. The results of adoption are deliverance from slavery of Sin and the Law, and from the flesh (Gal. 4:1 thru 5 Romans 8:14 thru 17), and it is the Holy Spirit who enables us to enjoy the privileges of our position. Forgiveness, Propitiation, Justification, Redemption, Sanctification, Reconciliation, and Adoption are the Seven Biblical elements of the Doctrine of Salvation. And as such are of extreme importance but, many religions, even most religions do not recognize the Seven elements of the doctrine of Salvation. They either ignore or modify these doctrines so that they do not contradict their own man made doctrines. And in doing so preach a false doctrine.


Now there is an eighth element. I don’t want you to think I forgot it. Glorification…but that is a topic that I will address later because this is long enough.
 
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Philip James

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I'm not sure what you mean by offering sacrifice.

Hi,
I mean the pure offering foretold in Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

And quoted in the Didache:

1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

~The Didache~

Peace!
 

YeshuaFan1

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Hello YeshuaFan,

We could not possibly magnify Mary more than God already has in choosing her to be His mother.

Honouring an artist's master piece, honours the artist..

Peace be with you!
She was still but a sinner though!
And any mother saved has the same rank she does in Heaven!