What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?

[bbyrd009]

Your poll questions are inaccurate, and rather condescending because EACH of them fail to take into account the simple fact that heaven is the dwelling place of God. Because He is sovereign so that only the Redeemed of God get into heaven, and because we are all given new natures, it is impossible for us to sin.

For any of the Redeemed to sin while in heaven is the equivalent to pump the contents of the "honey dipper truck" into a person's home; however, in this case, it is God's home, and the defilement of permitting just one of the Redeemed to ever sin nullifies the holiness of God, and makes the Atonement of Jesus Christ of less worth than the contents of that truck.

At one time, the spiritual beings in heaven had a choice. they could remain in heaven, and stay sinless, or they could rebel against God, and be cast out, as 1/3 of the angels, including the beautiful archangel Lucifer had the same fate.

Since Scripture tells us that the Redeemed shall have charge over the sinless angels, how then is it possible that we could sin?

What you need to do is get a higher view of who God is, and understand the total transformation that awaits those who die in Christ.

well so essentially the robot choice, right?
or, what in heaven keeps ppl from coveting, jealousy, selfishness, etc do you think?

ntmy btw, mark

Snarkiness never wins a discussion. EVERYTHING I stated is backed up by Scripture, so If you want me to post them, I will. but you ALSO need to provide something more persuasive than a simple and dismissive "nuh-uh" such as Scripture in its context in order to make a cogent reply.

i thought you made a decent argument, although as you say the premise is flawed, and the questions are moot anyway i guess; all go to the same place, no one has ever gone up to heaven, etc

 

[john t]

well so essentially the robot choice, right?
or, what in heaven keeps ppl from coveting, jealousy, selfishness, etc do you think?

I am wondering if you actually READ a post before you reply. If you are unable to follow the line of reasoning in the post, I can simplify it more than I did.

i thought you made a decent argument, although as you say the premise is flawed, and the questions are moot anyway i guess; all go to the same place, no one has ever gone up to heaven, etc

Your statement leads me to believe what definition for "Christian" is used here. Earlier, I posted verses in context from John 1, and Hebrews 1 that contradict your assertion. Here is another:

Acts 1:
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

 

[Giuliano]

No, I didn't. It comes from the text itself. The reason it doesn't harmonize with your perspective is because you have applied a different chronological sequence to the whole subject based on your assumptions concerning the typical futurist belief in the excessive relevance of the nation of Israel in the last days.

I think it safe to think Revelation 20 happens before Revelation 21 which then comes before 22.

The middle east/Israel isn't the focus of scripture. It's Christ and His church.

Ever notice that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel?

 

[john t]

I think it safe to think Revelation 20 happens before Revelation 21 which then comes before 22.
Ever notice that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel?

The many repetitions of the temporal adverb "then" in each of those chapters gives good support for your assertion. But then there are others who believe differently.

 

[Tong2020]

Any scenario that grants the redeemed a built-in advantage over the Edenic pair and even Lucifer himself indicates a fixed game, and is not of God.

So, is the truth scenario that the saved are born of God, and unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer were not, a fixed game and is not of God?

So, is the truth scenario that God dwells IN the saved, and NOT IN unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer, a fixed game and is not of God?

Only one who does not acknowledge those truths, that the saved are born of God and that God dwells IN the saved, but was not so with the unfallen Adam, Eve, and Lucifer, will have a Yes answer to those two questions.

Tong
R1029

 

[BarneyFife]

Snarkiness never wins a discussion. EVERYTHING I stated is backed up by Scripture, so If you want me to post them, I will. but you ALSO need to provide something more persuasive than a simple and dismissive "nuh-uh" such as Scripture in its context in order to make a cogent reply.

Sorry, not in it to win it. You're awfully bossy for a newb.

 

[BarneyFife]

So, is the truth scenario that the saved are born of God, and unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer were not, a fixed game and is not of God?

So, is the truth scenario that God dwells IN the saved, and NOT IN unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer, a fixed game and is not of God?

Only one who does not acknowledge those truths, that the saved are born of God and that God dwells IN the saved, but was not so with the unfallen Adam, Eve, and Lucifer, will have a Yes answer to those two questions.

Tong
R1029

Thank you for participating.

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that if anyone does sin in heaven, that their sins are covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ; and the only sin that would merit being cast out of heaven would be the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

That seems to suggest that sin will be committed by the saved in heaven so that it could be said that sin will continue to exist in heaven. Where in scriptures is that belief coming from?

Tong
R1030

 

[Tong2020]

Adam and Eve had glorified bodies in Eden.

Is that from scriptures or from you? If from scriptures, please cite them so I can check. Thanks.

Tong
R1031

 

[Giuliano]

The many repetitions of the temporal adverb "then" in each of those chapters gives good support for your assertion. But then there are others who believe differently.

Thank you. :)

There are other clues as well that help establish the time sequence. For example, we are told some things happen before the Thousand Year Reign and other things after it.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, is the truth scenario that the saved are born of God, and unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer were not, a fixed game and is not of God?

So, is the truth scenario that God dwells IN the saved, and NOT IN unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer, a fixed game and is not of God?

Only one who does not acknowledge those truths, that the saved are born of God and that God dwells IN the saved, but was not so with the unfallen Adam, Eve, and Lucifer, will have a Yes answer to those two questions.

Thank you for participating.

Does that mean you are moving out of our discussion and give up on standing up for what you believe? And does that mean you finally let go of your 40 years of pondering on the question and settled it in the article you stumbled upon, where there are many objectionable statements which go against the truths in scriptures?

If so, then thank you also for participating. :)

Tong
R1032

 

[BarneyFife]

Ever notice that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel?

Ever notice that much of the language in Revelation is symbolic?

 

[Giuliano]

Ever notice that much of the language in Revelation is symbolic?

Yes, and I think I have a fair idea of what those symbols mean. When I read about trees in Revelation, to me that means what "trees" mean elsewhere. Things are consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

I can see the same 144,000 of the original Israel in Genesis 1:2 in the word "moved" or "rachaph" which is 288. Why 288? It depends on how you count them. If you count "the neither male nor female" you get 144,000 described in Revelation as being "male virgins." If you count them after they became into "one male" and "one female," you get 288. These had their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Yes, I can see the 144,000 being alluded to in Genesis 1. (No, I am not one of them.)

These are those also Paul referred to as being grafted back on even if cut off temporarily -- and no Gentile should presume his status is the same as theirs. In the end, all Israel (the 144,000 -- or 288,000 if you prefer) will be saved.

You made a comment about my question but didn't answer it. "Ever notice that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel?"

Symbols are one thing. Some people mentally strike out "the tribes of Israel" in Revelation and insert "Gentiles" into the text. I would be afraid to do that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, is the truth scenario that the saved are born of God, and unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer were not, a fixed game and is not of God?

So, is the truth scenario that God dwells IN the saved, and NOT IN unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer, a fixed game and is not of God?

Only one who does not acknowledge those truths, that the saved are born of God and that God dwells IN the saved, but was not so with the unfallen Adam, Eve, and Lucifer, will have a Yes answer to those two questions.


Does that mean you are moving out of our discussion and give up on standing up for what you believe? And does that mean you finally let go of your 40 years of pondering on the question and settled it in the article you stumbled upon, where there are many objectionable statements which go against the truths in scriptures?

If so, then thank you also for participating. :)

Tong
R1032

God breathed into Adam's nostrils. What happened when Christ breathed upon His disciples? Do you really think Adam was "unfallen" and innocent or even alive without God indwelling him?

For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' (Acts 17:28)

You could go troll somewhere else. It is an option.

 

[Tong2020]

God breathed into Adam's nostrils. What happened when Christ breathed upon His disciples? Do you really think Adam was "unfallen" and innocent or even alive without God indwelling him?

For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' (Acts 17:28)

You could go troll somewhere else. It is an option.

On your first question, this is what scriptures says regarding that: "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."

On your second question, Scriptures does not say that God indwells in unfallen Adam and in Eve. To teach otherwise is obviously against the revelations in scriptures or going beyond what is written.

I have answered both of your questions. You can do the same when you are asked. And perhaps, you can begin by answering the two questions I asked. I like to hear your answer. You can answer by a simple yes or no, and if you must, explain.

So, is the truth scenario that the saved are born of God, and unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer were not, a fixed game and is not of God?

So, is the truth scenario that God dwells IN the saved, and NOT IN unfallen Adam and Eve and Lucifer, a fixed game and is not of God?

Regarding Acts 17:28, what is your point in citing the verse?

I am not a troll and am not trolling. Sorry to disappoint you on that.

Tong
R1033

 

[Brakelite]

um...been tryin my hardest :)
others here too i think?
we are plainly told where the kingdom is yeh
there is nowhere to go, it is always either within us or beside us, isnt it?

Okay, then you and I would agree then that now is the time we allow God to perfect His saints, and not wait for...which begs the question...

fwiw i suggest that anyone holding the pov came to it after a lot of reflection, usually, and only reluctantly came to admit over time based upon Scripture that a literal "returning" is almost surely not what is meant. Who wouldnt want a literal Return? I bet you would poll over 50% of atheists agreeing there?

"Almost surely" not what is meant... you are being uncharacteristically assertive here? I'm surprised so many Christians deny a literal second coming. Like I said, "great lengths" to do so, when so much scripture describes that event in great detail. Your admittance that such an event is something you would approve of and even hope for seems a contradiction to your distrust in the texts that positively teach it.
Considering scripture informs us that almost everyone will be pleading with their gods, the mountains and rocks, to send an avalanche to protect them from the coming Lord and the inevitable disclosures that His light will reveal, I would suggest that while at present "50% of atheists" may hope for a happy ever after, the time is coming when that hope will be forever terminated from their vocabulary. See Revelation 6:12-17 (sixth seal) which is a description of a time in which I believe we are now at the beginning of, followed immediately by Revelation 8:1, the seventh seal, all current residents in heaven soon coming here for a brief visit ....see Matthew 16:27, Acts 1:11, John 14:1-3, Mark 14:62. I could add many more, but "almost surely not what is meant"...why not?

 

[Brakelite]

I think it safe to think Revelation 20 happens before Revelation 21 which then comes before 22.

Really? What about Revelation 22:7,12,20? When does that take place?

Ever notice that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel?

So all that are outside are Gentiles? And all the Gentiles are dogs, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars?

 

[Giuliano]

Really? What about Revelation 22:7,12,20? When does that take place?

It could happen now. Indeed it has already happened for some, is still happening today, and will continue. Today is always the day of salvation. "To day, if ye will hear my voice" as David wrote. Anytime a saint achieves the perfection of hearing the "silent voice" -- he is changed. He has exited time and entered into the Eternal Rest of the Sabbath. That being said, there is also a time coming when the whole earth will enter the Eternal Rest of the Sabbath -- at the end of the Thousand Year Reign. Some enter sooner, but there is a time schedule where a day is a thousand years; and when the seventh day of its 1000 years is over, there will be no more time for people to allow God to change them.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

So all that are outside are Gentiles? And all the Gentiles are dogs, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars?

All the 144,000 are of Israel, the original Israel when Eden was established. Their mission was the salvation of the Gentiles. Thus we read first of the 144,000 and then of the Gentiles.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The mission of Israel is going to be an astounding success. Most Gentiles will eventually be grafted onto the Tree of Life. Some won't be, and their defective "members" will be burned away. They will never be able to become complete. That is connected with the fact that there will no more sea -- and no death and no hell. Death and hell can be looked at as blessings in disguise if you can see how what is not worth saving is burnt up while what is worth saving is preserved. Yet there will be an end to death and hell and the sea. The things of hell cause problems for the righteous. Such things are permissible, even when they cause suffering for the saints, as long as there is hope for sinners -- but after the Thousand Year Reign, those who haven't change will never change. Satan won't be around to deceive them, so if they still choose evil over good, they have no excuse.

 

[Giuliano]

Now back to the question. If you have learned how to use your hands to do good and enjoy it, you may enter heaven with your hands. If you do evil with your hands, you are not ready to enter "life" yet. And so it goes with everything about us. We are here to learn how to love God with all our strength. Failure to do so means the doors are closed to "life" if we cling to sin willfully and knowingly. The sinful members will be burned in hell.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

It is phrased slightly differently here:

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

While that could be viewed as literally true, the metaphorical meaning may be more important. If we voluntarily give up sins by making it impossible for us to sin, I daresay God can correct the "halt" and "maimed" in the world after this. If we refuse to "sacrifice" that which tempts us to sin, we have created idols for ourselves. Even if those idols are burned up, we could still be wishing to have them back. Thus the idea of giving up things which can be idols comes into play. There is nothing wrong with loving your parents or having a house; but there is a problem if anything becomes an idol. God will test us when we have idols; and if we pass the test, we will be glad since we find out there was nothing ever to worry about. God will provide exactly what we need.

Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.​

Thus life on this earth is precious, being filled with opportunities to rid ourselves of any idols which prevent us from loving God and our fellow man as we ought. Do not ask then what will keep us from sinning in heaven: Ask what can we do here and now to keep ourselves from sinning. Do today what you ought, and tomorrow will take care of itself. Do not be so concerned about things in the world to come that you falter in this world.

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

We can take care of the evil that comes our way today; and when we know how to keep ourselves from sin today, there will be no mystery about why people do not sin in heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you are unable to follow the line of reasoning in the post, I can simplify it more than I did.

more than honey pots and whatnot? Spiritual "beings" making choices? Thing is our present reality makes those quite logical sounding arguments moot imo, as humans we always want more, And if spirits can make choices then i guess they arent understood very well, not that i dont understand ok. Those are great beliefs to start out with, but a mature Christian will not be finishing up with them imo
"the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" SClemens

Your statement leads me to believe what definition for "Christian" is used here.

leads you to wonder, i guess? I found "Mithraist" fits for most ppl, at least it did me, tho im sure there are all kinds of defs for Christian, yeh. How bout "Galilean," found that one yet?

Earlier, I posted verses in context from John 1, and Hebrews 1 that contradict your assertion.

well, they might seem to, as wisdom is hidden from the wise, yes, but im sure there is an interpretation that does not violate your bargain with the grave will be cancelled, and i mean after all it doesnt say "you will see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up" or anything, right, i mean you actually post vv that help my argument, Jesus Himself telling those ("Galileans") standing there that they will see Him come down? 2000 years ago? Huh? Game over, right?

anyway, do you have any idea what "satan's dialectic" is? i ask bc you seem knowledgeable. And again ntmy, have a good Solday ok