Let me see if I understand you. You're saying "the Son of Man who is in heaven" doesn't mean He was in heaven when He said it?
Shall we discuss this?
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So Jesus told us to pray to his Father but you don't. Got it. And in your theology that would mean you are actually praying to a man not God at all. You just get more confused.
I already did. The three are one. Just because it's impossible doesn't mean it's not so. Your verses don't contradict the trinity in any way. In fact they only create a problem for non trinitarians when put together with passages showing all three members.
Jesus told folks to pray to his Father prior to resurrecting and the Col 2:9 effect the Father had on his resurrected body.
Now everything goes through our ACTIVE advocate/mediator.
Horrible idea to try to pray to his Father now and leave him out of it.
You end up approaching God with no advocate, nor mediator.
Never go to trial representing yourself, but go through your attorney.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
sure as a man Jesus has a God.
pre incarnation the Son had no God.
BTW- I love those passages in the OP.
There is only one ALMIGHTY...
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (all caps) appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come (Jesus), the Almighty.
He is the NT version of the OT Tabernacle. Of which, guess who dwelt between the cherubs ... The FATHER
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Jesus said Father in me he does the works.
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By definition, you are then attempting to discredit what Scripture plainly says, and more important is that you neglect to supply any Scripture in context that says differently.
Therefore, your reply is merely an unsupported "nuh-uh"
101G
Well-Known Member
BINGO!. 100% correct. one cannot get any plainer than that. and user used scripture which is the TRUTH. now if one says this is two separate persons, then one have two Almighty, meaning two Gods, because there is only ONE Almighty. and when one have two almighty God that's anti bible, for the scriptures are clear, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" and the LORD is that ONE "GOD". and if one claim well it's two person, if so then then you have two persons who is the almighty....
and again that's anti bible. for the scriptures are clear, Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." STOP, and think for a minute, what do "ANOTHER" constitute?. lets check the definition of "ANOTHER". it's the Greek words, TWO WORDS meaning, G243 allos, and G2087 heteros. each have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort." BINGO, the Lord Jesus must be G243 Allos, and not G2087 heteros ....., the mystery solved. listen if our Lord was G2087 heteros "with" the Spirit, God, then he could not give his Glory, according to John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." if the "Lord" Jesus was G2087 heteros "with" God then John 17:5 would be a LIE because it would contridict Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another". unless the "Lord" Jesus is the SAME SORT then God the ordinal First, the LORD, all caps could not give his GLORY to the "Lord" Jesus the ordinal Last. so in order to give his GLORY to him then he must be G243 allos, which means, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". BINGO, a numerical difference is #1. ordinal First, "LORD", God. #2. ordinal Last, "Lord", God. HOLD it. is this two separate persons? no, because G243 allos states the same SORT. if one would look up "Sort" at dictionary.com it means, 1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature. 2. character, quality, or nature. BINGO, he's the same person, only "SHARED" in flesh as the numerical difference of "Son", or ordinal LAST. mystery of the Godhead solved. THIS IS CLEARLY "DIVERSIFIED ONENESS" REVEALED.WE SUGGEST WE ONE RE-READ THIS AGAIN. IT CLEARLY REMOVES ANY MYSTERY OF THE GODHEAD.
Now if one say as one poster said, the titles "Lord" and "LORD" are interchangable. if so then all the distinction, and separation of persons goes right out the window, as we clearly demonistrated above.
so the trinity doctrine is in a bind, either you have two almighties, or you have ONE PERSON who holds both titles.....
this is your choice.and a little side note: now, since the two almighty Gods is out, or should be. the Lord died, and the "Lord" is God. so how did God do this, die on the cross, but yet at the same time, not?.... well the mystery is no more....... a hint to compare ... John 3:13... (smile), and Philippians 2:6 - 8.
G243 ALLOS holds the defining answer. my source for the definition is Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
PICJAG.
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There's no question that Jesus is God of the Bible. Those like JW's must challenge our very clear English translations. They have no proof that Jesus is not God the Creator. JW's insist they know more about the Bible languages than our many translators. Even the NWT JW bible declares that Jesus is God and Hell is eternal.
John 1 In the beginning... The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 1 In the beginning... The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Yes, Jesus is the God of the Bible as God fully indwells Jesus, bodily, with all that He consists of.
But, God did not turn into Jesus as incarnationists believe.
That's why we pray in Jesus name but pray to the father. And since the father and son and holy spirit are all one, you pray to all no matter which one you pray to. Yes all who are truly saved have an advocate, not based on how correct they pray, but based on Christ's atonement for them.
Um yeah, Jesus is God and the Father is God. How does this help you if you don't believe in the trinity?
That's not what the incarnation means. Who believes that God turned into Jesus? Jesus always was. You are not making sense.
So you skip Jesus when praying?
I never skip Jesus, but only pray to Jesus.
Since all of the Father is inside the spirit body of Jesus, God hears these prayers as to Himself.
I pray to God through Jesus.
You pray to God around Jesus.
Big difference.
If Jesus was Spirit, then became human, that is reincarnation into another type of being, not incarnation.
Yeah, I gave you all those scriptures and you drove over them without any real consideration. I suppose you are here for conversation, not any real evaluation.
At any rate, I urge you to deeply consider that a Roman Emperor named Constantine was very instrumental in setting up the First General Council of Churches in 325 A.D., known as the Council of Nicaea. The Church of Rome became the Official Church of the State with Constantine as its head. This "universal" church with its new doctrine was established so that EVERY subject (that means person) of the Empire would belong to the Official Church of the State. The THREE PERSON DOCTRINE was purely an orchestrated effort by Constantine designed to appease both the MONOTHEISTS (One God Christians) and the POLYTHEISTS (Multiple god Pagans). From a strictly political standpoint, I guess you might say it was a brilliant move. Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians for a while so I don't guess he was all bad.
However, the Roman Emporers were responsible for killing and torturing people (Christians) much like that of Hitler's Nazi death camps. The True Church was literally driven underground. As a matter of fact, the May 1976 revised edition of Haley's Bible Handbook reports on pages 761-763...
"...the church was regarded as a secret society...";
"...Christians were hunted in cave and forest; they were burned, thrown to wild beasts, put to death by every torture cruelty could devise."
"Christian graves are variously estimated at between 2,000,000 and 7,000,000."
I do not deny the three "aspects" of God being Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but the Bible does not mention a trinity. If you search into history, here is what you will find...
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol. 13, p. 1021 The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian's writings (about 213 A.D.). He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.
Encyclopedia Americana, 1957 Edition, Vol. 27, p. 69 The word "Trinity" is not in Scripture. The term "persons" (plural) is not applied in Scriptures to the Trinity.
World Book Encyclopedia, 1975 Edition, Vol. T p. 363 Belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost was first defined by the earliest general council of churches. This was the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.
New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 22 p. 476 The Catholic faith is this: We worship one God in trinity, but there is one person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Ghost. The Glory equal - the Majesty co-eternal. The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the Old Testament. At the time of the Reformation the Protestant Church took over the doctrine of the Trinity without serious examination.
Life Magazine, October 30, 1950, Vol. 29 No. 18 p. 51 The Catholics made this statement concerning their doctrine of the Trinity, to defend the dogma of the assumption of Mary, in an article written by Graham Green: "Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in scripture...But the Protestant Churches have themselves accepted such dogmas as The Trinity, for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels.
This is why those scriptures that you drove over without any real consideration are so relevant.
God Bless!
I find it amazing that the Bible was written by sinful mankind and yet is so absolutely accurate that thousands of years ago the Bible foretold what we are witnessing today, cashless society and the Mark of the Beast wearing a Pandemic mask.
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