Passover vs Eucharist

[Marymog]

Thomas says that it's bread and wine, not literally blood and flesh, just as I've been saying. I already said I believe Christ is present. I really don't know who you are arguing with. Do you believe that if someone has never taken Eucharist, he is condemned to hell? That isn't biblical. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved.

Hmmmm.....I may be completely misunderstanding your position. If so I apologize.

Aquinas holds true to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Do you?

Transubstantiation: the bread and wine, at the moment of consecration during Holy Mass, actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The change, however, is not detectable by the senses.

And to answer your question: No, I do not believe and The Church does not teach if a person has never consumed the Eucharist they are condemned to hell.

Mary

BTW.....Scripture has just a tad few more requirements to be saved then believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth. If that is all that was required of us then Scripture would be A LOT shorter with many many many fewer words. Sooooo your statement is not true. If you would like we can talk about those other requirements?

 

[Renniks]

.....I may be completely misunderstanding your position. If so I apologize.

Aquinas holds true to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Do you?

Transubstantiation: the bread and wine, at the moment of consecration during Holy Mass, actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The change, however, is not detectable by the senses.

No, I don't believe it actually becomes Christ's body, although I like the idea. Does that make sense? Perhaps I would like to believe it on some level, but although belief is a choice, I can't quite get there on this one, probably because I don't see where scripture requires it to be literal blood and flesh. I do however believe Christ is present in communion, because I can sense his presence. It doesn't seem to matter how that works, just that it brings us closer to Jesus.

answer your question: No, I do not believe and The Church does not teach if a person has never consumed the Eucharist they are condemned to hell.

Mary

BTW.....Scripture has just a tad few more requirements to be saved then believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth. If that is all that was required of us then Scripture would be A LOT shorter with many many many fewer words. Sooooo your statement is not true. If you would like we can talk about those other requirements?

I'm Protestant, remember? All that is required for salvation is true belief in Christ. There's much we should do and be, but none of it contributes to salvation, which is a free gift to whosever will.

 

[Marymog]

No, I don't believe it actually becomes Christ's body, although I like the idea. Does that make sense? Perhaps I would like to believe it on some level, but although belief is a choice, I can't quite get there on this one, probably because I don't see where scripture requires it to be literal blood and flesh. I do however believe Christ is present in communion, because I can sense his presence. It doesn't seem to matter how that works, just that it brings us closer to Jesus.


I'm Protestant, remember? All that is required for salvation is true belief in Christ. There's much we should do and be, but none of it contributes to salvation, which is a free gift to whosever will.

Hi,

Yes! What you are saying makes sense if you don’t believe or have faith in what Jesus and Paul is saying is true.

You said: All that is required for salvation is true belief in Christ. But you also said “I would like to believe....belief is a choice”. If all that is required is true belief in Christ then why don’t you have true belief in Him when he said “this IS my body...” AND “you must eat my body”? I believe what Jesus and Paul said. I don’t have a “choice” on that.

Scripture says much more than true belief in Christ is all that is required for salvation. Scripture also says one who believes and is baptized will be saved, faith without works is dead, repentance, declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9), grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8) etc. etc.

I am completely confused about your quoting of Aquinas to support your belief when he CLEARLY believes completely opposite of you.

Thank you for your time. I do remember that you are Protestant which means you can believe what you want and change your mind at anytime whenever YOU discover a “new” truth. I hope I am leading you to that new truth.

Mary

 

[Renniks]

You said: All that is required for salvation is true belief in Christ. But you also said “I would like to believe....belief is a choice”. If all that is required is true belief in Christ then why don’t you have true belief in Him when he said “this IS my body...” AND “you must eat my body”? I believe what Jesus and Paul said. I don’t have a “choice” on that.

It is his body spiritually speaking. No one took a bite of him when he told them you must eat my flesh in John 6.
In John 6:51 Jesus said: I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the BREAD that I will give for the life of the world is MY FLESH.” (the ‘good news’ of ‘eternal life’ through Him)

He obviously isn't speaking of cannibalism. Why would I take the last supper flesh and blood as literal flesh and blood, then?

 

[Renniks]

Scripture says much more than true belief in Christ is all that is required for salvation. Scripture also says one who believes and is baptized will be saved, faith without works is dead, repentance, declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9), grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8) etc. etc.

Adding to Christ's sacrifice for salvation is sad and pointless. Yes it's grace plus faith, nothing added. Baptism saves no one. Multiple verses confirm that belief is all that is required.
We will do works if our faith is real. I know Catholics confuse works with salvation, it's one reason I could never be Catholic.

 

[Marymog]

. Why would I take the last supper flesh and blood as literal flesh and blood, then?

Hi Renniks,

Paul rhetorically asked the same question which has your answer: Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

He also warned us that whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

How can we eat/drink a symbol "unworthily"? How can we be guilty over a symbol? I have pointed this out before but you have failed to address it.

 

[Marymog]

Adding to Christ's sacrifice for salvation is sad and pointless. Yes it's grace plus faith, nothing added. Baptism saves no one. Multiple verses confirm that belief is all that is required.
We will do works if our faith is real. I know Catholics confuse works with salvation, it's one reason I could never be Catholic.

Hi Renniks,

You say baptism saves no one....1 Peter 3:21 disagrees with you.

I do agree with you that multiple verses say that belief is required. Sooooo are we to pretend that the other verses in Scripture (that I pointed out) are not in Scripture? If we pretend they are not there then YES, you are right. However, I refuse to pretend with you!! :cool:

Catholics do not confuse works with salvation. That is your false understanding of what The Church teaches. James 2:24 makes it clear that works are necessary for salvation along with faith, belief, baptism, repentance, declare with your mouth "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart, you will be saved etc. etc....Just like Scripture says! We believe ALL of Scripture not just cherry picked passages.

Thank you for your time.....Mary

 

[Grailhunter]

Adding to Christ's sacrifice for salvation is sad and pointless. Yes it's grace plus faith, nothing added. Baptism saves no one. Multiple verses confirm that belief is all that is required.
We will do works if our faith is real. I know Catholics confuse works with salvation, it's one reason I could never be Catholic.

First off what do you think belief is?
If you believe, do you believe what Christ said?
If you believe, do you believe in what He told you to believe in, and do you do what He said to do?
Can you believe in Christ and in that instant go live in a closet and be saved? You need to look at the parable of the Talent and see how that works out.
John 6? That is a full page explanation from Christ's own mouth and it was serious, He lost disciples over it. He did not lose disciples over a metaphor! And then He did it saying this is my body and this is my blood.
You say that some thinks that if they do not believe that they are going to hell. The bread and blood ritual saves no one on it own...but what condition are you in if you are saved from hell, but there is no life in you, you do not abide in Christ and He does not raise you on the last day!?
Beliefs are formed on much less, this is a full page explanation, and a demonstration by God Himself, if you do not get this how can you understand anything?
There is no mystery about what Christ explained, there is no mystery about what Christ did at the last supper, there is no mystery about being born again during Baptism, there is no mystery that His blood was shed to forgive our sins, there is no mystery about the resurrection of Christ....but if it is just water, just wine and bread, if it was just blood that was shed...it all matters to nothing...So again I ask, what do you think belief is?

 

[Renniks]

Hi Renniks,

Paul rhetorically asked the same question which has your answer: Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

He also warned us that whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

How can we eat/drink a symbol "unworthily"? How can we be guilty over a symbol? I have pointed this out before but you have failed to address it.

We can take it with unconfessed sin in our hearts. Again, it being a spiritual reality and not a physical one plays no part in it being participation in Christ.

 

[Renniks]

Can you believe in Christ and in that instant go live in a closet and be saved?

I already stated that faith will produce works, but those works are not our salvation. If I depend on my works to save me, I will always fall short. Only his blood is sufficient. Now, certainly, I can be saved and do nothing but die five minutes later and go straight to Glory. Even Catholics believe that I think?

 

[Grailhunter]

I already stated that faith will produce works, but those works are not our salvation. If I depend on my works to save me, I will always fall short. Only his blood is sufficient. Now, certainly, I can be saved and do nothing but die five minutes later and go straight to Glory. Even Catholics believe that I think?

Well guess that is what you call selective faith. No one can answer the "die five minutes later question" and you know that that was not what I was talking about....What is your reward if you do "nothing" but believe and live in closet. The parable of the talent will give you an idea of that reward.

 

[Renniks]

Well guess that is what you call selective faith. No one can answer the "die five minutes later question" and you know that that was not what I was talking about....What is your reward if you do "nothing" but believe and live in closet. The parable of the talent will give you an idea of that reward.

I don't know how one lives in a closet, so I don't know the answer. Life will present choices and true faith will produce results. They may seem like tiny, unimportant results or big glorious results, but any move forward is progress. But the progress isn't what saves, it's one's continued faith.
Personally I don't believe the wicked servant in the parable of the talents was a true believer. He didn't know his " Master" and therefore was not worthy of heaven.

Try standing before God and saying:"I’ve lived a good life and done the best that I could do.” Or, “I am a basically good person and I’ve never tried to hurt anyone."
Do you suppose that's gonna get you into heaven? Why not, if works save?
No, salvation requires a spiritual resurrection from the dead. It requires having God forgive your sins, so that you are truly reconciled to Him.
This doesn't happen based on doing good deeds.
Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory.

 

[Marymog]

We will do works if our faith is real.

Hi Renniks,

Scripture makes it clear that faith without works is dead. That means someone can have faith but if they don’t DO the works their faith is dead. Scripture separates the two. Faith does NOT automatically lead to works. Even the devil has faith and believes that Christ is Lord but they don’t do works. Does their faith save them or lead them to good works?

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Now, certainly, I can be saved and do nothing but die five minutes later and go straight to Glory. Even Catholics believe that I think?

Yes, The Church teaches that. The good thief is a perfect example. He recognized Jesus for who he was but didn’t have the opportunity to do works or, to the best of our knowledge, get baptized. None the less on that day, by the grace of God, he was with Jesus in paradise. He was saved by faith and grace.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't know how one lives in a closet, so I don't know the answer. Life will present choices and true faith will produce results. They may seem like tiny, unimportant results or big glorious results, but any move forward is progress. But the progress isn't what saves, it's one's continued faith.
Personally I don't believe the wicked servant in the parable of the talents was a true believer. He didn't know his " Master" and therefore was not worthy of heaven.

Try standing before God and saying:"I’ve lived a good life and done the best that I could do.” Or, “I am a basically good person and I’ve never tried to hurt anyone."
Do you suppose that's gonna get you into heaven? Why not, if works save?
No, salvation requires a spiritual resurrection from the dead. It requires having God forgive your sins, so that you are truly reconciled to Him.
This doesn't happen based on doing good deeds.
Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory.

I don't know how one lives in a closet, so I don't know the answer.
It is an analogy sorry it escaped your understanding.

Personally I don't believe the wicked servant in the parable of the talents was a true believer.
Personally I don’t believe you have the authority to determine who is a true believer. But in relation to the parable, if you can come up with part of that story about which one was a believer or which was not…Otherwise I will go with you are not the judge of who is a believer or not.

Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory.

It depends on what you call works….living in a closet is an example of a good Christian and their reward will be in accordance with the parable of the Talents…Or maybe you think Christ was drunk and just rambling on about something that did not matter.

 

[Renniks]

Does their faith save them or lead them to good works?

Yes.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, The Church teaches that. The good thief is a perfect example. He recognized Jesus for who he was but didn’t have the opportunity to do works or, to the best of our knowledge, get baptized. None the less on that day, by the grace of God, he was with Jesus in paradise. He was saved by faith and grace.

As is every believer. To the best of your knowledge he didn't get baptized? Lol, no he didn't unless it was post mortem.
Baptism is also symbolic, but no need to go there.

 

[Renniks]

It depends on what you call works….living in a closet is an example of a good Christian and their reward will be in accordance with the parable of the Talents…Or maybe you think Christ was drunk and just rambling on about something that did not matter.

Christ wasn't contradicting other scripture that says that Abraham for example was saved by faith and not works. So Abraham had nothing to brag about, just because he believed God. Yes there's a difference in belief in the head, that even demons have, and trusting God in the heart.

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ wasn't contradicting other scripture that says that Abraham for example was saved by faith and not works. So Abraham had nothing to brag about, just because he believed God. Yes there's a difference in belief in the head, that even demons have, and trusting God in the heart.

Christ wasn't contradicting other scripture that says that Abraham for example was saved by faith and not works.
First off "saved" is a misnomer in the Old Testament. Save His life....No hell no devil and no promise of heaven in the Old Testament. God does not warn anyone about the devil in the OT, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture. He does not threaten them with hell, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture, and He gave them no promise of heaven, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture.

Yes there's a difference in belief in the head, that even demons have, and trusting God in the heart.
Again you miss the point...You believe and accept that Christ died for your sins, and then you go take a seat and wait to go to heaven. The Good-boy that sits like a bump on a log and waits to go to heaven, is of no service to Christ. Christ gave him a talent and he buried, make sure that sin would not tarnish it. As such you will receive your reward.

 

[Renniks]

Christ wasn't contradicting other scripture that says that Abraham for example was saved by faith and not works.
First off "saved" is a misnomer in the Old Testament. Save His life....No hell no devil and no promise of heaven in the Old Testament. God does not warn anyone about the devil in the OT, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture. He does not threaten them with hell, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture, and He gave them no promise of heaven, if you do not believe me, produce the scripture.

Yes there's a difference in belief in the head, that even demons have, and trusting God in the heart.
Again you miss the point...You believe and accept that Christ died for your sins, and then you go take a seat and wait to go to heaven. The Good-boy that sits like a bump on a log and waits to go to heaven, is of no service to Christ. Christ gave him a talent and he buried, make sure that sin would not tarnish it. As such you will receive your reward.

Wow, you are more messed up than I assumed.

Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This type of righteousness is required for one to go to heaven. "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:20)
Abraham got saved when he believed God's promise. "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Rom. 4:21-22)

Genesis 15:1-6
15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.”

2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

As for heaven and hell:
Old Testament writers clearly taught that people who rejected the only true God and the Messiah he promised would experience God’s eternal wrath (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2).
Old Testament writers spoke of people enjoying God’s eternal blessings through faith in him. The writers described heaven in different ways: being at God’s right hand (Psalm 16:11), dwelling in the house of the Lord (Psalm 23:6), being with God in glory (Psalm 73:24), a place of joy (Isaiah 26:19) and the enjoyment of everlasting life. (Daniel 12:1-3)