Passover vs Eucharist

[Grailhunter]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but I prefer to stick with the facts.

Not an opinion...in accordance with the scriptures.

And yet He did. Ergo the reaction of all present and the fact that his disciples left and no longer walked with Him.

You could not be more wrong...there are other examples of this...remember, this discussion is with Jews about the Mosaic Law, and Christ says a few things that are a tad confusing at best. He states that Moses…Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment, concerning divorce. This essentially sets the 613 Laws of Moses on its ear, because between this and the “eye for an eye” correction it makes you wonder if Moses wrote this on his own accord, not in accordance with God’s wishes, how many more Laws did he write on his own?

 

[marksman]

Not an opinion...in accordance with the scriptures.

And yet He did. Ergo the reaction of all present and the fact that his disciples left and no longer walked with Him.

You could not be more wrong...there are other examples of this...remember, this discussion is with Jews about the Mosaic Law, and Christ says a few things that are a tad confusing at best. He states that Moses…Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment, concerning divorce. This essentially sets the 613 Laws of Moses on its ear, because between this and the “eye for an eye” correction it makes you wonder if Moses wrote this on his own accord, not in accordance with God’s wishes, how many more Laws did he write on his own?

As this thread is not about Moses I cannot see what you are going on about.

 

[Grailhunter]

As this thread is not about Moses I cannot see what you are going on about.

lol Cop out!

 

[Josho]

But as we know all too well Satan is capable of producing miracles.

Oh I am well aware, but Satan does not produce counterfeit miracles that draw people closer to the Lord Jesus.

Satan does counterfeit miracles to deceive people and draw people away from God or further away from God.

I believe the Eucharist miracles are of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FollowHim]

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"


Well, the apostles accepted it (except the one who did not believe).
And for 2000 years the Church has professed and believed this 'absurdity'.
You will not find a 2000 year old apostolic community that does not believe this.

So then the question remains:

will you listen to your flesh; 'this is absurd'

or will you listen to the Lord;
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Unfortunately a whole church founds it's authority on the bread and the wine.
Remove this and you change the faith and it's expression.

People love the idea they have real spiritual authority except it is often just pride. Jesus is about community, fellowship, oneness, which is the sign of His people. This is not what this tradition builds, rather cleansing acts without understanding of what and how. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thank you.

I have answered....several times....sooooo I will answer again by using scripture. Romans 6:23 is ANOTHER answer to your question.

He also told Martha basically the same thing in John 11:25-26 (that we will not die) What did he mean in that passage EG?


Bible study Mary

1. The GIFT of God is eternal life
2. As for John 11. It says the same thing as aloof in the book of John says

John 3. He who believes will NEVER DIE. But HAS eternal life
John 4. Ask, and out of your heart will flow rivers of living water FLOWING to ETERNAL LIFE
John 5. He who hears and believes has eternal life, and shall not come int judgment but has passed from death to life
John 6. Whoever eats, Drinks/on essence, believes in him. Has eternal life, shall NEVER die Will Live forever, Has passed from death to life. Will live as Long as Jesus lives (forever) and will be ressurected personally by him.
John 7, He who believes out of his heart will flow rivers of living water (the Holy Spirt)
Even in your own passage it says the same

John 11:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord,I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

In fact amazing, She said the exact same thing Peter said in John 6 when jesus asked if they wanted to depart also

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have come to BELIEVE and KNOW you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It is all the same message through out John

So since we agree on what it means. Can you still die? Have you done what jesus in all of these passages (ask, hear. Believe (faith))?

Or is your life still conditional on things?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL....I have answered All your questions....do you have a new one?

The last post you made and i just responded to sort of answers it.

Do you believe Jesus when he said that whoever eats. They will never die? (I asked you this along time ago and do not remember an answer) if you answered Me I missed it forgive me please

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did He have to repeat at the Last Supper what He said in John 6? Or do you think the Apostles were so stupid they didn’t get the connection so He should have repeated it? If He would have repeated it would you be convinced then?

Paul got the connection and he wasn’t even at the Last Supper: 1 Corinthians 10:16

Mary

See here we go again

Jesus said whoever eats his the bread he gave them will NEVER DIE

Did Jesus lie?

You claim you have eaten it correct? Then according to Jesus. You should live forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I think ANYONE can die spiritually.

Then Jesus lied.

I don’t know what you mean by why do I keep eating the food that Jesus said endures forever.

If a doctor came and said he had a cure, and he could cure you eternally from whatever causes death, And in doing so you could stop taking all these pills which you have to continually take, yet still die. He tells you Take this pill and you will live forever

In faith you take it, Yet you die afterwords

That doctor lied to you, he has deceived you. And should not be trusted

 

[Eternally Grateful]

.
Had Jesus eaten leavened bread with his passover, he would've broken the
laws of the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God.

However, according to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22;
Christ was 100% sinless, i.e. he committed no sins of his own.

The fact of the matter is: whereas azumos is specific, artos is flexible.

And besides; Jesus and his men were hard-core orthodox Jews. There's no
way they would've eaten leavened bread during an important ethnic feast
that strictly forbids it. The person who prepared their passover would've
known better too.
_

Leven represented sin

To have leaven bread represent his body was to claim his body had sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Iron sharpens iron.

Amen

But when you come with the “Bash” or “hate” card just because someone disagrees. Its not iron.

 

[Josho]

I don't even see why this is even a debate, both the Passover and Eucharist are Biblical.

Passover is a Jewish tradition, the Eucharist is a Christian tradition.

The Eucharist is both for the Jewish Christian and for the Gentile Christian, and represents the most significant thing Jesus did for us on the Cross, the Holy Eucharist is of great importance.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't even see why this is even a debate, both the Passover and Eucharist are Biblical.

Passover is a Jewish tradition, the Eucharist is a Christian tradition.

The Eucharist is both for the Jewish Christian and for the Gentile Christian, and represents the most significant thing Jesus did for us on the Cross, the Holy Eucharist is of great importance.

I do not think there is an argument about the lords supper or the tradition of partaking of the bread and wine as a christian tradition

1. It was commanded by Christ himself (do often in remembrance of me)
2. It, like the passover, is a major tradition used to bring to remembrance what God did to Save them and us from what we needed saved from

What I think this issue is, Are we correctly interpreting the word and these ceremonies or traditions. In my mind, John 6. John 6 is a major passage when jerseys is offering something he states is eternal. And given the promise of raising us to himself on the last day.

I also do not believe it is a catholic/Protestant issue, As Protestants also interpret it the same way. I have sat in a Catholic mass, and Also received the bread and cup in a Lutheran service, and also at a Lutheran Funeral.

I would say the discussion is is the Eucharistic aspect of the lords supper in line with John 6? (My contention) which is why I am asking about John 6. And trying to stay away from the other Passages because I think we all agree about those passages.. (except for the literal flesh and blood)

Peace bro as always!!

 

[FollowHim]

CLEARLY you think He is a liar.....

The real thing is Jesus is a strange character, His words are not obvious, He uses parables and emphasis to challenge our understanding and to see the Kingdom of Heaven does not conform to our world and its understanding.

Jesus desired we understand the central significance of the cross and His offering of himself for us. He says likewise we should offer ourselves to our brothers and sisters in the Kingdom. Do you see in one step how profound this is? How more intimate can Jesus get than say we have to eat His flesh, become one with Him, know His suffering and likewise walk in it, not reject it, accept, submit, bow, humble ourselves to His will not our own.
To drink Christs blood is to have the life of Him in us, to lay down our life for others.

This approach to service and life Jesus wanted to take the step further than us benefiting from His sacrifice, into we are part of the sacrifice also, we are brothers and sisters in this walk of grace and love.

To turn this into a physical eating Jesus's flesh and drinking His blood, misses the point. As Jesus says this is spiritual not physical.

 

[FollowHim]

See here we go again

Jesus said whoever eats his the bread he gave them will NEVER DIE

Did Jesus lie?

You claim you have eaten it correct? Then according to Jesus. You should live forever.

Is this ironic?
You hold you get belief in Christ and are locked in eternally, and are suggesting Jesus is saying eat my flesh you are eternally saved, if one reads the words in a literal way.

I would say each group has their own interpretation of what is meant, with previso's some to mean it is eternal, others that it is a cleansing which if kept to becomes an eternal reality.

What Jesus is very careful about is to put the priviso's in, if one is willing to listen to Him. So Jesus says eating the bread and wine is spiritual not a physical significance.
Equally believing in Him is bound to obeying Him, and the commands of the Father.

The ironic aspect of obedience, like the sabbath rest, this has taken on a different meaning, ie in Christ we have the sabbath rest eternally. In this way we fulfil the sabbath rest command, by being in Him, Praise the Lord.

Jesus brings all the external realities of Israel into our internal life in Him.

 

[FollowHim]

Emotional relativism

A book was highlighted to me about a pastor who in church life hit rock bottom, and thought through aesthetic discipline life would flow. But nothing happened. He started to explore who he was emotionally, his emotional foundations, loyalties and convictions.

God began to move and change him and bring him out. I can relate to this reality also, because I was emotionally shut down and thought I understood life and my reality.
Until I found solid limitations and reactions that seemed to define me, and how I reacted. So who am I, my beliefs or my emotional structure, and can my emotional structure change? Did Jesus speak to this, or is interested at all?

I watch a program to do with LSD. It made me realise our minds hold our emotional reactions in check, but LSD randomly breaks this hold down, so irrational notions become truth and reality we had missed before. LSD destroys, because it is change with no objective or control, a wreaking ball. But it highlights we are completely 100% emotionally relative.

If Jesus can speak to you at an emotional level, to your heart, you are beginning to see the gospel. Peter failed because he understood Jesus was the Christ, but not the cost what this conviction meant, eternally and one to one with Him.

So the Eucharist, is this a song of praise to your Lord, the one who loves you deeper than any other, who died for you, and you would die for to show His love to another. There is literally no deeper language in life than this, that I would lie my life down for another, no matter how futile that might appear, as a gift to them. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

I don't even see why this is even a debate, both the Passover and Eucharist are Biblical.

Passover is a Jewish tradition, the Eucharist is a Christian tradition.

The Eucharist is both for the Jewish Christian and for the Gentile Christian, and represents the most significant thing Jesus did for us on the Cross, the Holy Eucharist is of great importance.

This is more of a discussion between those who hold with a sacramental view of faith and those who hold with a symbolic view of faith, ie the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Jesus by the blessing of a priest and all this implies, or this is a love feast with bread and wine to remember Jesus and celebrate His presence and life in our hearts.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is more of a discussion between those who hold with a sacramental view of faith and those who hold with a symbolic view of faith, ie the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Jesus by the blessing of a priest and all this implies, or this is a love feast with bread and wine to remember Jesus and celebrate His presence and life in our hearts.

How can this be!
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Come on! How can this be?

Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Come on! How can this be?

John 2:1-11 Turning water into wine! Come on! How can this be? A miracle to get drunk! Surely this is not true!

Transfiguration! Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) Come on! How can this be? Is the Bible saying He was a witch!

The feeding of 5000 people! Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:31-44; Luke 9:12-17; John 6:1-14 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe that fish just appeared in those baskets!? You sure it wasn’t rabbits that they were pulling out of their hats!

Bringing people back to life! John 11:1-4 Mark 5:38 Acts 9:36-42 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe this stuff?

Get up, pick up your cot, and walk." John 5:8 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe that He just walks up and heals people! Or people can just touch Him and be healed! Sounds like a fairy tale!

Baptism! So you get wet! How can that mean anything?!

“Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”… And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. John 26:26-28 Come on! How can this be? What are we vampires? Who would pour out blood? How could blood do anything?

“But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (I John 1:7) Come on! How can this be? Is it a flashlight that saves us or something as gory as blood?

He walked on water! Matthew 14:22-33 lol! Sure He walked on water! Did he take a fishing pole! Quite the trick!

He resurrected from the dead! Matthew chap. 28 Mark chap. 16 Luke chap. 24 John chap. 20 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to belief that a dead corpse came back to life?!

Blood that saves! Takes away the sin of the world! Pulling fish out of basket! Raising people from the dead! Walking on water! Healing people! Talking to dead! Who did this guy think He was….a God!

The thing is, what does it mean to believe in Christ? If you are saved by belief…what does it mean if you only believe some of it? Are you saved a little bit? Maybe Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross was only symbolic? It was a nice gesture? Really did not do anything! Christianity is about believing in Christ. It is about believing in miracles. It is about believing in things that we cannot see or maybe not even comprehend. If you do not believe these things...why waste your time?

If you do not believe that it was the body of Christ and blood of Christ at the last supper….how strong is your belief in anything? There is a physical side and spiritual side and what that bread and what that wine became on the spiritual side to give them eternal life is what makes the whole story from start to finish a miracle like never before….a God walked among us! What limits do you put on His power? What is the extent of your belief?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How can this be!
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Come on! How can this be?

Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Come on! How can this be?

John 2:1-11 Turning water into wine! Come on! How can this be? A miracle to get drunk! Surely this is not true!

Transfiguration! Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) Come on! How can this be? Is the Bible saying He was a witch!

The feeding of 5000 people! Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:31-44; Luke 9:12-17; John 6:1-14 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe that fish just appeared in those baskets!? You sure it wasn’t rabbits that they were pulling out of their hats!

Bringing people back to life! John 11:1-4 Mark 5:38 Acts 9:36-42 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe this stuff?

Get up, pick up your cot, and walk." John 5:8 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to believe that He just walks up and heals people! Or people can just touch Him and be healed! Sounds like a fairy tale!

Baptism! So you get wet! How can that mean anything?!

“Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”… And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. John 26:26-28 Come on! How can this be? What are we vampires? Who would pour out blood? How could blood do anything?

“But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (I John 1:7) Come on! How can this be? Is it a flashlight that saves us or something as gory as blood?

He walked on water! Matthew 14:22-33 lol! Sure He walked on water! Did he take a fishing pole! Quite the trick!

He resurrected from the dead! Matthew chap. 28 Mark chap. 16 Luke chap. 24 John chap. 20 Come on! How can this be? You expect me to belief that a dead corpse came back to life?!

Blood that saves! Takes away the sin of the world! Pulling fish out of basket! Raising people from the dead! Walking on water! Healing people! Talking to dead! Who did this guy think He was….a God!

The thing is, what does it mean to believe in Christ? If you are saved by belief…what does it mean if you only believe some of it? Are you saved a little bit? Maybe Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross was only symbolic? It was a nice gesture? Really did not do anything! Christianity is about believing in Christ. It is about believing in miracles. It is about believing in things that we cannot see or maybe not even comprehend. If you do not believe these things...why waste your time?

If you do not believe that it was the body of Christ and blood of Christ at the last supper….how strong is your belief in anything? There is a physical side and spiritual side and what that bread and what that wine became on the spiritual side to give them eternal life is what makes the whole story from start to finish a miracle like never before….a God walked among us! What limits do you put on His power? What is the extent of your belief?

In john 6, Jesus said whoever ate it would never die

In matt 26, mark 14 Jesus said take eat. DO OFTEN

So either Jesus was confused on Matt 26 and Mark 14, Or he lied in John 6

While I agree, God does do miracles. And you support this with this post, I do Not think it proves that the Eucharist is a miracle..

 

[Philip James]

Remove this and you change the faith and it's expression

Agreed. And so I will remain in the Faith that was delivered once for all through the apostles, and not embrace some faith expression that came about 1500 years later...

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

Jesus is about community, fellowship, oneness, which is the sign of His people.

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.


Peace be with you!