Fear God or Presume acceptance

[marks]

If you don't believe this command, as if it is Old Testament, then go ahead and believe that unforgiveness is not hate.

How are these connected?

If I don't think God's forgiveness is based on whether I am forgiving,

Then

I don't believe unforgiveness is hate?

What I'm saying is that if your being saved or condemned is based on whether or not you are yourself forgiving, then, again, Christ is one rung, and you are another.

We forgive because we've been forgiven, not in order to receive forgiveness.

That's in Ephesians, I know I've quoted it a lot. Forgiving others, as God in Christ has forgiven you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just noticed this part. Wow! If you don't believe in obedience to Christ, then how can you say you love Him. Or has love nothing to do with it, just your version of faith.

Wow is right!

Now you have me not believing in obeying Christ?

Let's back up a step.

Our justification is not based on our own obedience, instead it is based on Jesus' obedience.

Romans 5
7 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That One is Christ.

We are justified by His obedience, not our own.

Having been justified, being reborn, we are then able to go on to obedience ourselves. Not that our obedience justifies us any further. We are justified by Jesus' obedience.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where do you get this from??? He even tried to explain that if you get in an airplane which flies you across the country, it would be ridiculous to claim or boast that you did the flying when it was the plane that did the flying. And yet there you are, in Australia! But you didnt fly, the plane flew. But because you were IN the plane, you went where the plane went.

It is impossible for the man to make himself any clearer and yet you still say that when he says being in Christ/abiding/walking in Him is the grace and power to not sin, you say that he is saying we have to finish it ourselves...how on earth does the grace and power of God to walk as Jesus walked become epi saying you must finish it yourself??


Epi: I'm getting on a plane that will fly me to Italy.
You: Are you boasting that you can fly??!!

Sheesh...

The problem is, Its like when Noah was SEALED in the ark. Once he got sealed in. Or once we enter the airplane. and are SEALED in by the pilot (the HS) there is no getting out.

And you also have to get in the right plane. The one God is flying. Not the one where you have to try to help him fly. because if not, you may not make it

 

[CharismaticLady]

We forgive because we've been forgiven, not in order to receive forgiveness.

That is the opposite of Matthew 6:14-15

 

[CharismaticLady]

Wow is right!

Having been justified, being reborn, we are then able to go on to obedience ourselves.

Much love!

Then say that.

 

[marks]

Then say that.

You've been putting words in my mouth, I'm attempting to untangle that.

The point is that we are not justified by our own obedience. That doesn't say anything about whether we should obey Jesus or not. Of course we should. It doesn't say anything about whether I love obedience to Jesus. I do. But that's not the point.

My obedience to Jesus will NEVER justify me before God. We are justified by Jesus' obedience, not our own. Not even the obedience of forgiving others. That does not justify us, Only in Jesus.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is the opposite of Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Compare to . . .

Ephesians 4:32 "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Why such a dramatic difference between these two passages?

One says that we must forgive to be forgiven, the other says we are to forgive in the same way we've been forgiven.

In the one case, God forgiving us depends on our forgiving others. In the other case, God's forgiveness to us is our foundation to forgive others.

How do you explain that?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

You've been putting words in my mouth, I'm attempting to untangle that.

The point is that we are not justified by our own obedience. That doesn't say anything about whether we should obey Jesus or not. Of course we should. It doesn't say anything about whether I love obedience to Jesus. I do. But that's not the point.

My obedience to Jesus will NEVER justify me before God. We are justified by Jesus' obedience, not our own. Not even the obedience of forgiving others. That does not justify us, Only in Jesus.

Much love!

Forgiving others is a must after we are born again.

 

[CharismaticLady]

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Compare to . . .

Ephesians 4:32 "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Why such a dramatic difference between these two passages?

One says that we must forgive to be forgiven, the other says we are to forgive in the same way we've been forgiven.

In the one case, God forgiving us depends on our forgiving others. In the other case, God's forgiveness to us is our foundation to forgive others.

How do you explain that?

Much love!

One doesn't supersede the other, mark. Jesus gives us the reason we should want to, because He forgave us, but the warning is not null and void. Do you believe it is?

 

[Episkopos]

The point is that we are not justified by our own obedience.

This is what wanky doctrine leads to. As if God cares not for our obedience. Of course obedience justifies us...in HIS sight. Not our own.

You have to take the focus off yourself to understand God's ways.

It is the one who DOES the word that is justified. The DOER. We will be judged by what we DO.

Obedience is BETTER than sacrifice. Even is Someone sacrifices for you. God can have mercy all day long...but if we never learn obedience we will be spit out of His mouth.

Ephesians 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The problem is, Its like when Noah was SEALED in the ark. Once he got sealed in. Or once we enter the airplane. and are SEALED in by the pilot (the HS) there is no getting out.

And you also have to get in the right plane. The one God is flying. Not the one where you have to try to help him fly. because if not, you may not make it

It's difficult to try to have this conversation because there are some things you haven't understood...firstly, that training in righteousness is not holiness. So...if God brings you into the plane, you are no longer being guided by the Holy Spirit but are walking IN the Holy Spirit. In that place, miracles happen. In that place, the power of God is manifested through a man, like the apostles healing the sick. And the apostle said, why do you gaze earnestly at us as if through our own righteousness or holiness this miracle has been wrought? (My paraphrase, I believe its maybe in Romans).

The goal is holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. And yet, though it is the goal and our hope, no man can work his way into it and only God can take him into the "plane."

Have you ever wondered why you've never performed a miracle? Have you ever yelled out inside, where is the God of Abraham??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The point is that we are not justified by our own obedience.

Yes, sort of...I mean, it is only God who can say a man is counted righteous. Gods eyes see and decide. And no matter if 20 men pronounce that you are a righteous man, men cannot make that pronouncement because only God is the judge of men.

However, we see that God has called men righteous who trusted and believed Him. And we see that He has called men righteous who put all their hope in Him and His mercy and were truthful (like with the 2 men praying in the temple). So we can do what we can do and examine those instances and stories to see what those men did that pleased God and we can at least then trust and be truthful and have great hope and try to be pleasing as those others were.

So yes, only God is the judge, but today we see men being the judge.

 

[FollowHim]

The problem is, Its like when Noah was SEALED in the ark. Once he got sealed in. Or once we enter the airplane. and are SEALED in by the pilot (the HS) there is no getting out.

And you also have to get in the right plane. The one God is flying. Not the one where you have to try to help him fly. because if not, you may not make it

I like this analogy. You introduced the idea we are sealed into a plane, ie cannot get out. And you added to it, one could be in the wrong plane.
So your plane is a sealed plane and flown by God, and you will go wherever the pilot is flying you and you have no choice, whatever you do, believe or hope for, you destination is set. So if you have got this wrong, and God the "just" God of all, gives you what you desire, because you have locked yourself into a belief system from which you can never escape, the just reward this deserves.

Please show me in scripture where God did this to anybody. Jonah rebelled and went in the opposite direction to where God wanted him to go. And what happened? Jonah was condemned to die, thrown overboard to save the crew, because Gods judgement had fallen. He was though saved by the whale and coughed up on the beach. He then repented and obeyed and delivered Gods message to Nineveh. Jonah's objection was God would forgive them, and Jonah wanted judgement on them. Jonah could have walked away again, but he knew Gods will would be fulfilled and he would have died.

Job. The whole argument about Job is he chose to worship God, but satan said it was just because God blessed him. So everything God stood on, was it was Job's faith and love of God which founded his life, not because he was forced or imprisoned to worship.

A faith which imprisons people and they have no choice is sin and its destruction. Sin seals people to the lake of fire, from which there is no return.
A royal seal is a statement of guarantee, but it can be broken, at which point it no longer is valid and is tampered with. So Gods seal in us, the Holy Spirit can leave us, and can be broken. For the temple of the Holy Spirit to not be able to be defiled, means a born again believer who turns away and follows sin, is still a holy temple though in unbelief and sin. At what point is this a total contradiction?
Paul says have nothing to do with people who are sexually immoral etc and call themselves brothers. So they are no long temples of the Holy Spirit.

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1 Cor 5

In your way of thinking, these guys are fine, just carnal but still saved.

 

[marks]

This is what wanky doctrine leads to. As if God cares not for our obedience. Of course obedience justifies us...in HIS sight. Not our own.

You have to take the focus off yourself to understand God's ways.

It is the one who DOES the word that is justified. The DOER. We will be judged by what we DO.

Obedience is BETTER than sacrifice. Even is Someone sacrifices for you. God can have mercy all day long...but if we never learn obedience we will be spit out of His mouth.

Ephesians 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

My obedience to Jesus will NEVER justify me before God. We are justified by Jesus' obedience, not our own. Not even the obedience of forgiving others. That does not justify us, Only in Jesus.

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote.

Where do I speak against obedience to God? I don't think that is where we differ. We both, I think, believe in obeying God. But we do not both believe that our obedience justifies us.

"By one man's obedience the many are justified."

I've hoped for real and honest discussion, however, attributing ridiculous ideas as if they were mine does not advance that. And we can call each other's doctrine "wanky" or whatever all day long, but can't we do better?

I think there is a lot more in common between us then may appear. I'd love to reach the unity.

 

[marks]

One doesn't supersede the other, mark.

Given that these two verses each say something that directly conflicts with the other, how do you explain that? If not for the reason I've given?

 

[marks]

Forgiving others is a must after we are born again.

Or rebirth is lost back into death, is that correct? Or are we talking about finding out after death that you are rejected?

 

[marks]

One doesn't supersede the other, mark. Jesus gives us the reason we should want to, because He forgave us, but the warning is not null and void. Do you believe it is?

Forgiving others as God in Christ has forgiven you.

How has God forgiven you? If conditionally, then I suppose that's how we are to forgive others? That doesn't seem right to me.

Besides, Matthew shows Jesus teaching that the listener wouldn't even be forgiven if they didn't forgive others. So their forgiveness of others has to come BEFORE they are forgiven by God. So if God is waiting for us to forgive others before He forgives us, then we aren't forgiving as we've been forgiven.

Do you see the connundrum now?

Yet if Jesus' teaching is showing the requirement of the Law, while Paul is teaching what the New Covenant is, then the reason for the difference is easy to understand.

Much love!

PS . . . Yes, we should forgive others. Actually, I'd rather say, unforgiveness is sin, and comes from the flesh. Why, even the feeling of offense, when someone violates God's Law and we feel violated and set ourselves over someone, that we feel we must forgive them, I think that comes from the flesh also.

Belittling others, trying to make them sound ridiculous (I've been guilty of that!), trying to make them sound like they are saying something they aren't, and then holding that against someone, all these, flesh, flesh, flesh. Sin. All of it. Because it comes from flesh.

In reality, the forgiveness that comes from the spirit is to be suffer long, hope for the best, never really taking offense to begin with, just committing to love others. That's all that matters anyway, faith expressing itself through love.

 

[marks]

Yes, sort of...I mean, it is only God who can say a man is counted righteous. Gods eyes see and decide. And no matter if 20 men pronounce that you are a righteous man, men cannot make that pronouncement because only God is the judge of men.

However, we see that God has called men righteous who trusted and believed Him. And we see that He has called men righteous who put all their hope in Him and His mercy and were truthful (like with the 2 men praying in the temple). So we can do what we can do and examine those instances and stories to see what those men did that pleased God and we can at least then trust and be truthful and have great hope and try to be pleasing as those others were.

So yes, only God is the judge, but today we see men being the judge.

I'm referring to this part:

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. )
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And no matter if 20 men pronounce that you are a righteous man, men cannot make that pronouncement because only God is the judge of men.

Justification is much more than a pronouncement.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freed here would be better translated Justified, as that is the word that appears here, make righteous.

Dying in Christ, we are Justified away from sin. This is the new creation, created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness. Now that we are a new creature, now that we have been "righteoused" away from sin, let's put on that new man and live the resurrection, as those who are alive from among the dead ones.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's difficult to try to have this conversation because there are some things you haven't understood...firstly, that training in righteousness is not holiness. So...if God brings you into the plane, you are no longer being guided by the Holy Spirit but are walking IN the Holy Spirit. In that place, miracles happen. In that place, the power of God is manifested through a man, like the apostles healing the sick. And the apostle said, why do you gaze earnestly at us as if through our own righteousness or holiness this miracle has been wrought? (My paraphrase, I believe its maybe in Romans).

The goal is holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. And yet, though it is the goal and our hope, no man can work his way into it and only God can take him into the "plane."

Have you ever wondered why you've never performed a miracle? Have you ever yelled out inside, where is the God of Abraham??

Why do you gaze earnestly at us? That happened with Paul and Barnabas in Lystra. That also happened to Peter and John at the Beautiful Gate. Both in Acts.

Are you thinking this was the apostle's way of saying that he had his own righteousness or holiness, somehow apart from the gift of the grace of God?

Acts 3:12 "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?"

Just as Peter isn't saying here that he had his own power that he could have used, neither is he saying he has "his own holiness".

It can be good to take some extra time to revisit these passages to nail down just what they are saying.

The other place is Acts 14:
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Much love!

 

[marks]

The goal is holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. And yet, though it is the goal and our hope, no man can work his way into it and only God can take him into the "plane."

So then is it your hope to convince God that He should take you? Through your dedication to obedience and righteousness? Do I understand correctly?

Much love!